Wright writes.....

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Mike,

 

'The DJH 9F has the wrong wheelbase though.....'

 

Too long overall? To accommodate overscale flanges (even though the centre ones are flangeless) and to give space for the brake gear? Either way, I cannot tell by just looking at it, and if it can only be proved by measurement (by how many millimetres is it out?), then that's not 'vital' for a 'layout loco' in my opinion. 

 

That's not to say dimensions are not vital, but one, two, three millimetres overall on a big loco's wheelbase...................

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

I don't have one here to measure but as I recall the DJH kit has all the wheels spread out to increase the gaps between them, the Bachmann model is correct. I find the difference quite noticeable. Coupled wheelbase is 21ft 8in - 86.67mm in 4mm scale, the old Kitmaster model was correct as well.

 

[SuperD]

11 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good evening superD,

 

Did you have anything specific in mind or sources for everything?

Hi, I particularly wanted to know about the chain gear.  Thank you.

[westernviscount]

19 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good afternoon Simon,

 

I'm rather lacking in posh photograph equipment I'm afraid, so I'm reliant on natural daylight to get a decent shot. I've only shot one other image so far, see below. The full train will have to wait until the good weather allows me to assemble it and shoot it out in the garden. 

 

Parkside double bolster, kit built as it comes* but with corrected brake pull rods and replacement tie bars. Flexible steel plate was allowed to be loaded onto double bolsters, as long as it touched the deck, it didn't overhang the edges and was secured to the bolsters.

 

 

* The stanchions, Rings, shackles, hooks, artificial steel products and Aussie chain don't come with the kit.

 

I think this is superb. Would you mind summarising your weathering technique? Your results are excellent. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

I don't have one here to measure but as I recall the DJH kit has all the wheels spread out to increase the gaps between them, the Bachmann model is correct. I find the difference quite noticeable. Coupled wheelbase is 21ft 8in - 86.67mm in 4mm scale, the old Kitmaster model was correct as well.

 

Thanks Mike,

 

Just measuring the DJH coupled wheelbase, it's a twitch over 22' in scale. So, towards a foot too long. 

 

Running on a layout, I honestly can't tell this fact........

 

 

 

Especially in tight perspective. This is actually a Model Loco example.

 

 

Another DJH 9F, this one built by someone else.

 

 

One might argue that the Bachmann 9F is actually better (I'll measure the coupled wheelbase on this one and compare). All I've done is to detail and weather this example.

 

 

As supplied, the Bachmann 9F needs weathering for realism.

 

I accept Tony Gee's point about the brakes being wrong on the DJH/Model Loco 9F, but when they're painted/weathered I'm not so sure they're too obtrusive. 

 

As always, I'm more interested in building locos for myself, which run really well. If extra clearance is necessary to ensure that there's no binding/shorting on items like brakes, then I'm prepared to compromise. 

 

Years ago, I built a K's P2 for a friend. The first job was to ditch the supplied wheels and motor for Romfords and a five-pole X04 clone of the day. The Romford drivers' flanges then touched each other (there was no room for brakes, anyway). Thus, I scratch-built a set of frames (including new rods) giving me clearance for the flanges and room for brakes. I probably extended the coupled wheelbase by the same amount as in the DJH 9F, but who could tell? Not without measuring. 

 

There's a K's P2 gathering dust by the side of Retford at the moment. It, too, has Romford drivers, but the middle four are flangeless! It's in OO, so it's not the late Roy Jackson's work. 

 

Finally, an 'interesting' comparison of 9Fs.....

 

On the left is a modified/weathered Bachmann 9F (now the property of Robert Carroll). On the right is a Crownline/Kitmaster/Alexander creation by our elder son, Tom, made when he was 15 years old (that's now over a quarter of a century ago!). Whether the Crownline frames have the right spacing, I have no idea, but can anyone tell from this angle? 

 

Please don't think I'm advocating a 'sloppy' approach to 'dimensional' modelling. However, if the only way anyone can tell me that a loco's wheelbase is too long or that its type of brakes is incorrect as it's running on Little Bytham, without having to stop it, lift it off and present it against a scale rule, then I compliment them on their eyesight. 

 

I'm reminded of the occasion when one dimwit (he must have been a bit slow) commented to Roy Jackson that the type of brakes on (I think) an N5, sitting at Babworth (Roy was by Retford Station), were incorrect (or, it might not have had any brakes at all!). 'Brakes!' bellowed the great man. 'At this distance, I can't even tell which f****** class it is!'. I never saw the slow-learner ever again! 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2022 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Barry Ten]

I'm not sure how the old Hornby 9F wheelbase measures up but this was my attempt at adding brake gear. Quite crude when examined but at least gives the impression of something there.

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, 31A said:

 

Would it be possible to see some pictures of the vans which show the brake gear more clearly, please, as pictures I've seen elsewhere seem to indicate that the levers and push rods are not correct?   However I don't know whether the pictures I saw were of the finished versions, that are available to buy in the shops.  The upper parts look to be excellent though!

 

Good morning Steve,

 

I'll be taking some more pictures later today.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, SuperD said:

Hi, I particularly wanted to know about the chain gear.  Thank you.

 

Good morning SuperD,

 

sorting the chain out took quite a bit of research, partly because nobody in model railway land had any idea what sort of chain was used on the real thing. Suppliers and even the most sophisticated modeling was using what is called cable chain. This is completely the wrong sort, the links being rounded like the knit of a cable jumper. The real links were stretched to give them greater strength, in smaller scales this is called paper clip chain.

 

Fortunately, Naval modelers were far more knowledgeable on such stuff than their railway counterparts. With their assistance and by counting of links on many a photograph and drawings, I was able to work out that 1/350 scale anchor chain was a very good match for the heavy chain used on bogie bolsters. Not all  1/350 anchor chain is equal however, there are good products and not so good products. The pandemic made it impossible to eyeball various chains and supplies started to disappear around the world. I finally settled on Artwox 1/350 scale ship chain, it is the Bees knees for what I wanted. Eventually I tracked the product down to Australia. With the pandemic at last in protracted retreat, it may be now available closer to home, you would have to shop around. The chain is raw brass so it requires blackening, I used Birchwood Casey brass black but I also painted the links.

 

The stanchions are from Wizard models, the working 'D ring' shackles are just folded 4.5 mm brass rod, hooks, eyes and screw shackles are from the Roxey mouldings range. The screw shackles are not super detailed but they really don't need to be,  the products that are super detailed are so overscale they look comical.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Headstock
Change word.

[Tony Wright]

I've just measured the coupled wheelbase on a Bachmann 9F, and it's a scale 22'.

[Mike 84C]

I like the shot of Mike Wild smiling as he videos on LB. He looks as if he was having a fun day.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, westernviscount said:

 

I think this is superb. Would you mind summarising your weathering technique? Your results are excellent. 

 

Good afternoon westernviscount,

 

I don't really have one technique, observation, observation, observation is my mantra and then find or develop a technique that replicates what you are seeing. I will break a model down into sections, so the bare wood areas on the bogie bolster were treated very differently from the sides for example. The wooden decking, required the individual planks to be picked out as the gaps between them was not properly represented in the kit. The weathering was built up in washes, a completely different and messier technique than that used on the sides, this was completed first before the application of the livery or any other paint. Once the full livery was applied and a pin wash added, the weathering just chipped away at it bit by bit, by mixing various weathered wood and faded paint shades in a mostly standard paint to thinners mix. The trusty airbrush was used when required to lend cohesion.

 

Underframes were different again, being built up with various airbrush passes in assorted colours. They are usually last to be completed. I hope that helps. 

[Barry Ten]

Running trials for the Princess. Just as a 4-6-0 for the moment.

 

 

 

This build has definitely knocked a chip off my shoulder when it came to building loco chassis. The valve gear was trickier to sort out than the other locos I've done, but once I got it working I thought the rest would be plain sailing. Not so, as I'm now struggling to get that bogie to track reliably. Again, it's not been an issue on my other locos. Perhaps it's because I used Gibson wheels this time (they were in my spares) rather than Markits, which I think are more forgiving of indifferent track? At the moment it just pops off at the slightest temptation.

 

I also couldn't get the DJH grub screw to engage properly. In the end I robbed Peter to pay Paul, pinching a longer grub screw from a

Branchlines gear box to use here. That'll come back to bite me at some point, I'm sure.

 

Al

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony Wright]

2 hours ago, Mike 84C said:

I like the shot of Mike Wild smiling as he videos on LB. He looks as if he was having a fun day.

We all had a fun day, Mike.

 

As I've stated previously, the only things which went 'wrong' were because of me; not setting the correct roads/switches, trying to reverse heavy cars (positioning) when it would have been easier to run right round and so on. 

 

We finished with about an hour of the three of us just running trains round, after Mike had done some videoing. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Barry Ten said:

Running trials for the Princess. Just as a 4-6-0 for the moment.

 

 

 

This build has definitely knocked a chip off my shoulder when it came to building loco chassis. The valve gear was trickier to sort out than the other locos I've done, but once I got it working I thought the rest would be plain sailing. Not so, as I'm now struggling to get that bogie to track reliably. Again, it's not been an issue on my other locos. Perhaps it's because I used Gibson wheels this time (they were in my spares) rather than Markits, which I think are more forgiving of indifferent track? At the moment it just pops off at the slightest temptation.

 

I also couldn't get the DJH grub screw to engage properly. In the end I robbed Peter to pay Paul, pinching a longer grub screw from a

Branchlines gear box to use here. That'll come back to bite me at some point, I'm sure.

 

Al

 

 

 

 

 

Good afternoon Al,

 

Nice work; thanks for showing us. 

 

Gibson bogie/pony wheels are far more-sensitive to any track irregularities than Markits equivalents (they are finer, of course). It's for that reason that I rarely use them, despite their looking nice. I've also known the tyres to come off (which caused a tremendous crash last year as a friend whipped up GREAT NORTHERN to full speed and a bogie tyre came loose!). 

 

I've informed DJH that they need to supply longer grub screws in their gearboxes. One thought; have you filed a flat on the driven axle? Not only is this good practice, anyway, but it also allows the short grub screw to 'bite' more-effectively.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Barry Ten]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

One thought; have you filed a flat on the driven axle? Not only is this good practice, anyway, but it also allows the short grub screw to 'bite' more-effectively.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Many thanks, Tony. Yes, I did a file a flat - I even went to the trouble of adding a dot of paint on the rear of the wheel to indicate

where the flat is for future reference! But it didn't seem to help. The Branchlines grub screw (much longer) did the trick immediately.

 

The gearbox going in this loco was likely one I ordered a few years ago (I bought a batch of AM9s a while back) so they may have

put in longer grubs now.

 

Al

[MJI]

Remember the LMS van discussion from a few weeks ago.

 

With careful use of photos from Paul HMRS web site I have worked out the Ratio 572 needs quite a bit of work.

 

Box is wrong brand.

Instructions are unfitted, all photos are fitted.

Kit has 8 spoke wheels, pictures show 3 hole disc.

 

Found one with the no bracing as per kit, rest had bracing.

 

So bracing added, full fitted (parts in box) being done. LMS (as in Dave Franks) buffers found, got wheels on order including some more 3 hole disc.

 

The Dapol body is OK apart from the roof vents. could do with WM ones. BR body but the number on mine is LMS, will be resprayed, could do with a few body onlies. If I do I would resell the one I have as is on Ebay.

 

The chassis is just horrific.

 

The new chassis is Parkside same moulding as the Vanwide kit so I need to check my spares as I built a lot of those as TOPS VEV.

 

As soon as they as usable I will put some piccies on.

[Headstock]

2 hours ago, MJI said:

Remember the LMS van discussion from a few weeks ago.

 

With careful use of photos from Paul HMRS web site I have worked out the Ratio 572 needs quite a bit of work.

 

Box is wrong brand.

Instructions are unfitted, all photos are fitted.

Kit has 8 spoke wheels, pictures show 3 hole disc.

 

Found one with the no bracing as per kit, rest had bracing.

 

So bracing added, full fitted (parts in box) being done. LMS (as in Dave Franks) buffers found, got wheels on order including some more 3 hole disc.

 

The Dapol body is OK apart from the roof vents. could do with WM ones. BR body but the number on mine is LMS, will be resprayed, could do with a few body onlies. If I do I would resell the one I have as is on Ebay.

 

The chassis is just horrific.

 

The new chassis is Parkside same moulding as the Vanwide kit so I need to check my spares as I built a lot of those as TOPS VEV.

 

As soon as they as usable I will put some piccies on.

 

Afternoon Martin,

 

The Ratio kit is of an LMS van, not a BR conversion, people will have to do the conversion for themselves, its not too difficult. It is still suitable as it comes for producing an unfitted van in the early BR period. You can also put an LMS eight shoe clasp brake chassis underneath it, to make a fitted van as built. Plenty of the type didn't get the additional strapping.

 

The Dapol body is still a little bit short but acceptable. it doesn't look so good marshaled next to the Ratio van and it can only be one of the limited BR builds, rather than a genuine LMS van.

Edited February 5, 2022 by Headstock
re edit edit that didn't save.

[Dunsignalling]

29 minutes ago, Headstock said:

 

Afternoon Martin,

 

The Ratio kit is of an LMS van, not a BR conversion, people will have to do the conversion for themselves, its not too difficult. It is still suitable as it comes for producing an unfitted van in the early BR period. You can also put an LMS eight shoe clasp brake chassis underneath it, to make a fitted van as built. Plenty of the type didn't get the additional strapping.

 

The Dapol body is still a little bit short but expectable. it doesn't look so good marshaled next to the Ratio van and it can only be one of the limited BR builds, rather than a genuine LMS van.

And not all LMS vans received the extra BR diagonal strapping.

 

The majority did, but there are enough photos showing vans without it well into the 1960s to suggest that BR called a halt to adding it at some point, rather than a tiny number just "slipping through the net".

 

Where the Ratio kit is a bit problematic is that the underframe makes up as built-unfitted or with 4-shoe AVB added by BR.  Those built with AVB would have had LMS 8-shoe clasp brakes. Parkside PA16 is your friend for that and is an easy substitution during assembly.

 

John  

[MJI]

I just based mine on real photos. I can get away with mainly BR built clasp braked ones and a couple of 4 shoe VB.

[Headstock]

1 hour ago, MJI said:

I just based mine on real photos. I can get away with mainly BR built clasp braked ones and a couple of 4 shoe VB.

 

You can also put the Dapol (BR built) body on the LMS clasp brake chassis like the 1949 builds. 

 

 

[robmcg]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks Mike,

 

Just measuring the DJH coupled wheelbase, it's a twitch over 22' in scale. So, towards a foot too long. 

 

Running on a layout, I honestly can't tell this fact........

 

 

 

Especially in tight perspective. This is actually a Model Loco example.

 

 

Another DJH 9F, this one built by someone else.

 

 

One might argue that the Bachmann 9F is actually better (I'll measure the coupled wheelbase on this one and compare). All I've done is to detail and weather this example.

 

 

As supplied, the Bachmann 9F needs weathering for realism.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

And don't they come up well!

 

 

 

 

This above about 100 Pounds on Ebay.

 

The upcoming Hornby model means that our cup runneth over, for RTR....  and Hornby has recently done so well with such as the A2s that it may well be a tour de force.  Of course weathering and some renumbering and tender swapping will be in order. I admire the standards of modelling which go into RTR and am continually amazed.

Edited February 5, 2022 by robmcg
addition

[EHertsGER]

22 hours ago, EHertsGER said:

I’ll second all of that, having wrestled with a Coronation chassis from Comet in P4 (dammit it looks good now, though!) to sit under the old (2005?) City of London in BR maroon. Just as a new one is announced…

Finished! Turned out quite well…

Anyone wondering what a fellow claiming allegiance to the GER in East Herts is doing with a Coronation (way beyond the axle loading limit on the Buntingford Branch) should find that wonderful song ‘December ‘63, oh, what a night!’ in their music collection and enjoy sharing my memories of being escorted from Euston to Rugby (removed in favour of a green thing) on our way to my grandparents in North Wales for Christmas. It was a daytime service, but the song always seems apt. And I did thank the driver. One did in those days…

Edited February 5, 2022 by EHertsGER

[great central]

All the 9Fs shown look superb apart from one small thing missing I noticed when looking around an ex Barry hulk at Butterley many years ago.

I was building a DJH one at the time so made a good visual study.

There are sandbox fillers on the footplate and large diameter pipes, 6" perhaps, lead down to the sandboxes between the frames, none of the  models appear to have them and, to me, it emphasises the emptiness between the frames and boiler bottom.

I found a decent side view of Evening Star by Googling, if there any copyright issues I will remove.

 

https://alchetron.com/BR-Standard-Class-9F-92220-Evening-Star

[SuperD]

10 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

Good morning SuperD,

 

sorting the chain out took quite a bit of research, partly because nobody in model railway land had any idea what sort of chain was used on the real thing. Suppliers and even the most sophisticated modeling was using what is called cable chain. This is completely the wrong sort, the links being rounded like the knit of a cable jumper. The real links were stretched to give them greater strength, in smaller scales this is called paper clip chain.

 

Fortunately, Naval modelers were far more knowledgeable on such stuff than their railway counterparts. With their assistance and by counting of links on many a photograph and drawings, I was able to work out that 1/350 scale anchor chain was a very good match for the heavy chain used on bogie bolsters. Not all  1/350 anchor chain is equal however, there are good products and not so good products. The pandemic made it impossible to eyeball various chains and supplies started to disappear around the world. I finally settled on Artwox 1/350 scale ship chain, it is the Bees knees for what I wanted. Eventually I tracked the product down to Australia. With the pandemic at last in protracted retreat, it may be now available closer to home, you would have to shop around. The chain is raw brass so it requires blackening, I used Birchwood Casey brass black but I also painted the links.

 

The stanchions are from Wizard models, the working 'D ring' shackles are just folded 4.5 mm brass rod, hooks, eyes and screw shackles are from the Roxey mouldings range. The screw shackles are not super detailed but they really don't need to be,  the products that are super detailed are so overscale they look comical.

 

[MJI]

2 hours ago, Headstock said:

 

You can also put the Dapol (BR built) body on the LMS clasp brake chassis like the 1949 builds. 

 

 

 

I have one of those. just got to dril the buffer beams for LMS buffers

[BoD]

12 hours ago, t-b-g said:

The clearances look tiny in real life so doing it in OO wouldn't be easy.

Dead easy.

It’s tiny divided by 76