Wright writes.....

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, Tony Teague said:

In the end, whether one is happy or not with the amount to be gained from the sale of 2nd hand stock might come down to whether it was perceived as an investment when bought, or as a consumable.

My personal view is that anything spent on my hobbies is 'consumable'; if I want to invest it wouldn't be in model railway stock or photographic kit (my other hobby).

I am currently working (with others) through the disposal of a large collection of railway modelling artefacts, the property of a modeller who is permnently and very seriously incapacitated; it is taking an inordinate amount of effort to which his family make no contribution whatever, and whilst we are managing their expectations, they certainly started by thinking that it was a pot of gold.......😧

Tony

 

Good afternoon Tony,

 

I wish you well in your endeavours.

 

I agree with you entirely that anything spent on model railways is 'consumable'. In my own case, its value to me is not what anything might be worth after my demise, but how much pleasure I gain by making it/improving it/modifying it/weathering it/etc. Granted, it will have a residual value (or should have), and it'll be insured for that. Speaking of insurance, it's wiser, in my view, to insure an article for more than one might expect to get for it if sold. This is not diddling or corruption, but pragmatism.

 

I insure my things by abstracting myself from the equation. By that I mean, if an individual model were stolen/lost/destroyed, how much would it cost to replace it, say, a DJH A1 for instance? Counting the cost of all the components (in excess of £350.00), what would the final total be for a professional builder (a proper one; say a Mike Edge or a Geoff Haynes) to make it and have it professionally-painted (by, say, an Ian Rathbone or a Geoff Haynes)? In excess of £1,00.00. Probably over £1,200! Now, I'd be very lucky to get anything near that, were I trying to sell any of my own-build DJH A1s, but if they had to be replaced? 

 

Selling on well-made/well-painted models on behalf of distressed/bereaved families, I'm lucky to even cover the component costs of, say, a DJH A1, let alone what it might have cost to build/paint. I try to, and sometimes succeed, but rarely are those 'extra' costs factored in. Another problem is, though they might look 'pretty', they don't run. 

 

This one is a case in point.............

 

 

 

A DJH A1 from the estate of a deceased modeller (builder/painter unknown, and it's not signed, so not a 'top' job). 

 

Though reasonably well-made (the cab doesn't rake-in) and well-painted (the bottom horizontal lining on the tender is too high), when it ran it sounded like a lumberjacks' convention in full-flow! Not only that, it was tight in places and had only three speeds - fast, faster and even faster! 

 

I sold it initially to a friend for under £150.00, in the knowledge that something would be needed to make it run properly. He (Geoff West), detailed it and weathered it rather well, but eventually conceded that 'putting it right, running-wise' was beyond him. So, I bought it back off him for what he paid, stripped it right down mechanically, eased the rods/valve gear and installed a new motor/gearbox drive (DJH, to the tune of £80.00). I then reassembled the mechanics and she's now a sweet runner - no tight spots, quiet, smooth-running and very powerful; al the things she was not before. 

 

In the end, I've kept it (for the time being), but who would pay a 'realistic' price for it now. Factoring in my time (at £30.00 an hour), over £350.00? No way! Even though that just about covers the cost of the components.

 

As I've said before, my 'donation' to helping distressed/bereaved families is my time, but there has to be a limit. 

 

Your mention of a surviving family's 'indifference' to what might be being sold, reminds me of one occasion where no interest seemed to be taken in our 'disposing' of a collection; until we started selling stuff and money came in. Then members came out of the woodwork in droves! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

[cctransuk]

59 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Thanks John,

 

If a post of mine contains a blooper, then, please, point it out. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

...... only in the best possible taste - and with a heavy dose of humour! I 😄

 

John.

[Buhar]

I've bought a few items (on one occasion more than I intended!) from Tony/CRUK and the thought that the money spent is going in the right directions tends to loosen my fear of the scorpion in my wallet.  My wife has a similar attitude in charity shops, she'll happily buy something she's not sure about prepared to regard it as a donation if she changes her mind and recycles it.  On one occasion she bought a set of mugs, changed her mind and gave them to another shop.  A few days later her sister, visiting on holiday, saw them and decided it was just the sort of thing my wife likes and bought them for her.  We've still got them, this time.

 

Another factor for me is that someone spent their money, hopefully enjoyed owning the model or kit, maybe got fun out of building it, they put something of themselves into it (perhaps not to to highest standards) and so keeping that going under new ownership has an additional meaning.  I may not have known the person but I respect what they did as modellers.

 

Alan

[polybear]

On the subject of insurance (and I think I'm right in my understanding here):

 

If you insure a collection for £5000 when it's actually worth double that then, in the event of total loss (a fire, for example) the Insurance Company will only pay out £2500 as you were under-insured.

[APOLLO]

This is interesting and informative, with a slant on disposing American model railroads in the UK

 

https://www.nmrabr.org.uk/disposing-model-railroad-estates/

 

Brit15

 

[John Tomlinson]

19 hours ago, melmoth said:

 

I can see where you're coming from but I don't think you're really appreciating the way that a business has to work to make a profit. Let us assume that you have an item that you want to sell, and that you value that item at £100, and that £100 is a fair price for that item. If you sell that item privately for £100 (minus any postage costs or eBay fees etc), you realise most of the value of that item. If you sell that item to a dealer you will get far less than that because:

 

a. The dealer knows that the item is worth £100 on the open market and that they will be unlikely to be able to sell it for more than that

b. The dealer has ongoing business costs that have to be paid for out of whatever they sell any item for.

c. The dealer, obviously, also has to make a profit on any item they sell, because it's how they make their living.

 

So for your £100 item, a dealer is likely to offer you a sum whereby they make the same amount of money out a deal as you do. This is not an exact science, but in the worlds of both antiques (of which I know very little) and secondhand books (of which I know considerably more), the general rule of thumb is that a dealer will offer the vendor around a third of what they then hope to sell the item for. So a dealer would offer you, say, £30/35  for your £100 item, hope to sell the item for its £100 value, and then set aside £30/35 to offset costs, and (in an ideal world) be able to take £30/35 as a wage/profit. There are plenty of things that can wrong with this from the dealer's point of view including (but not limited to) theft, damage, changes in the market (e.g. the decline in prices for Hornby Dublo and Wrenn), and quite simply perhaps the inability to sell the item at it 'true' value in a timely manner - which at best means the dealer's money is tied up in that item, and at worst means the dealer has to reduce the price of the item in order to sell it, which obviously has a detrimental impact upon the dealer's profit.

 

Two further points worth noting:

 

1. If my own business accounts for the last year are anything to go by, I'd suggest that the ratio should now be edging towards 1:1:2 rather 1:1:1 because of the sharp rise in business related costs. In which case, £25 for your £100 item might become a more likely offer from a dealer in the future. I would argue that this would not be 'avaricious' as things stand.

2. I note that you say you advertised several items on this site without any takers. Notwithstanding the fact that you subsequently sold your items at a price you were happy with through eBay, it might be possible that you set your sights slightly too high when attempting to sell the items on here and consequently considered the offer from the 'trader from Liverpool' to have been less realistic than it actually was. This is, of course, pure conjecture on my part and I could be completely wrong. For what it's worth, I've sold items to a 'trader from Liverpool' before now and have been offered amounts that I was happy with - but then I did have an expectation of what they might offer, based on the sort of information I've given above.

 

 

A very interesting piece indeed.

 

Some years ago I was on a group railtour in Europe, and one of the participants was a toyfair trader, specialising in trains, buses and the like. (I appreciate several rungs below the antique book trade!).

 

In the course of our week away, we discussed his trade, and his view was that he would expect to pay 25 - 33% of his anticipated selling price for an item. He didn't have premises costs as he worked from home, but did have outlays in travel, stall fees, stock holding, and write offs of unsaleable items bought as part of a clearance, plus of course an entirely reasonable expectation of a return for his time and effort.

 

This does rather reinforce the numbers quoted, and also makes the point that someone prepared to spend the time on the likes of ebay will achieve a far higher net margin than they would selling via a trader or dealer.

 

John.

[Tony Wright]

On the subject of models I have through my hands for sale.............

 

How about this?

 

 

A Cornard/Jouef Austerity, from the dawn of time. It's been donated to sell for CRUK. 

 

It actually runs (via the Joef tender-drive from the French 1-4-1), but its worth? Very little, really.

 

By the way, the weathering is 'natural'.

 

Now, in contrast........

 

 

A DJH Austerity, built by DJH themselves (in the Banbury days). The irony is this ran very poorly - noisy and tight; much worse than the Cornard one. It was also painted in the most-flat black finish I've ever seen - most unnatural. Using my donated time, I got it running well and weathered it, achieving a much better price than had I left it alone. 

 

Another donated model (again, with natural weathering)...........

 

 

Is this Wills/Tri-ang K3 (even the coupling rods are upside down!) Its worth? Very little, despite it running as well as can be expected.

 

In contrast........

 

 

From memory, this SE Finecast K3 was built/painted by the late Graham Varley. I achieved a good price for this.

 

Occasionally, I'll take a loco which is up for sale and acquire it myself.......

 

 

As in the case with this Wills A3 on a later SE Finecast chassis (my SEF K3 is behind). I thought the chassis was OK, so...............

 

 

I built an SEF body to go on top of it (the tender is the original). 

 

 

Which I then painted and weathered. 

 

As it stood, I don't think the original model was worth a great deal (though I sold the original body to The Green Howards - for a fiver, Andy?). I think this is now worth considerably more than its original state. 

 

Of course, building something from a virgin kit is much better..............

 

 

As I did with this SEF K3.

 

 

 

Which Geoff Haynes painted. It was made for one of his customers. 

 

Another donated loco is......

 

 

This altered Trix tender-drive A3 (we won't mention the banjo dome and the corridor tender!). It actually runs quite well. Its value? Not a lot.

 

In contrast.......

 

 

I sold this Finney A3 in EM Gauge for £750.00 (the most I've ever got for any single model).

 

However, despite its looks, running on Retford, part of the valve gear fell off and ultimately the friction-fit drivers shifted on their axles under heavy load and have been replaced (sorry Sandra). This is not unusual, unfortunately - a very pretty loco which just isn't up to the job in terms of running. I've had so many through my hands in the last few years..............

 

I'll be taking the three donated locos to the forthcoming Stamford show to sell (they're not worth posting), if anyone is interested. 

 

 

[thegreenhowards]

It was indeed a fiver, Tony. I’ve stuck it on a Bachmann chassis from which I had dropped and smashed the body. You might say the worst of both worlds…but it runs very well and pulls almost anything.

[richard i]

Quiz question of the assembled masses. In a chassis for a 4-4-0, what do people have as the distance between the outside edges of bearings from one side to the other, so that the wheels have enough, but not too much lateral movement in oo?

I know back to back of the wheels are 14.5 but the bearing faces would have to be narrower than that, but what?

Historically, I have found comet pre-made spacers leave the bearings tight against the back of the wheels. 

many thanks for advice.
If people do not want to clog the thread/ feel it won’t be of interest to others perhaps a private message.

richard

[Jack P]

9 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

May I please advise caution here, John?

 

Not all folk are natural 'wordsmiths', and some can be very sensitive if their English is 'corrected'. 

 

It's definitely the sort of thing I would have corrected had it been handed in to me at school, but this is not a school, nor is any post on here in any manner 'homework'. 

 

Not only that (and I know this from personal experience), you can look a total chump if a careless error ends up in one of your posts.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

Oh I'm not bothered, I'd like to think I have a fairly good grasp on how to communicate. Some of the intricacies will have no doubt gone over my head. 

 

You mentioned the A2/3 Ocean Swell, I have this to pass on from the owner; "[Tony] would not like what he saw, because bits have fallen off (they are in the box) and at some stage someone has picked it up by the valve gear.  This is the one where I have spent some hours unpicking the squashed Walschaerts.  I have substituted a photo of A2/2 Wolf of Badenoch : this promises to be a Really Useful Engine and runs very smoothly now that more than a dozen shorts have been dealt with.  It is temporarily running with the wrong leading bogie axle.  (Long boring story.)  Still a work in progress but nearly there."

 

Here are a few more photos for now, Including a HR 4-4-0 tank.

[uax6]

They are all nicely built, but that HR Yankee is stunning. I hope my pair come out as nicely as that!

 

Andy G

Edited April 27, 2023 by uax6

[robertcwp]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

You mention Tri-ang-Hornby Thompsons; the other day, a friend popped round with some original Bachmann Thompsons (in plain brown). He asked my advice as to how to price them (they were in good condition, but un-boxed), since his club is trying to sell them (for club funds). They'd tried at £15.00 each, with no takers whatsoever. £10.00 had then been tried, but still no takers. In the end, I suggested (at a push) £7.00 each, though they might not sell for that. Two had been altered into catering cars (using Comet sides), but neither was particularly good; I doubt if they'd sell for a fiver each! 

 

I have a growing stock of 'withdrawn' carriages, including some old Southern Pride kit-built printed side Mark 1s and various old Thompson and other obsolete stock. The main issue is that most have very good Romford wheels, which I believe are no longer available. As I don't have old wheels to put in the withdrawn stock, I decided to effectively scrap some of the old stock by recovering re-usable things such as wheels, couplings and in some cases bogies. Each carriage stripped of wheels effectively saves the £6.80 a new set of Gibson wheels would cost for another carriage. I don't need the hassle of trying to sell such stock.

 

[Richard_A]

6 minutes ago, robertcwp said:

I have a growing stock of 'withdrawn' carriages, including some old Southern Pride kit-built printed side Mark 1s and various old Thompson and other obsolete stock. The main issue is that most have very good Romford wheels, which I believe are no longer available. As I don't have old wheels to put in the withdrawn stock, I decided to effectively scrap some of the old stock by recovering re-usable things such as wheels, couplings and in some cases bogies. Each carriage stripped of wheels effectively saves the £6.80 a new set of Gibson wheels would cost for another carriage. I don't need the hassle of trying to sell such stock.

 

Which southern pride coaches are you disposing of? 

[Tony Wright]

54 minutes ago, Jack P said:

 

Oh I'm not bothered, I'd like to think I have a fairly good grasp on how to communicate. Some of the intricacies will have no doubt gone over my head. 

 

You mentioned the A2/3 Ocean Swell, I have this to pass on from the owner; "[Tony] would not like what he saw, because bits have fallen off (they are in the box) and at some stage someone has picked it up by the valve gear.  This is the one where I have spent some hours unpicking the squashed Walschaerts.  I have substituted a photo of A2/2 Wolf of Badenoch : this promises to be a Really Useful Engine and runs very smoothly now that more than a dozen shorts have been dealt with.  It is temporarily running with the wrong leading bogie axle.  (Long boring story.)  Still a work in progress but nearly there."

 

Here are a few more photos for now, Including a HR 4-4-0 tank.

Thanks Jack,

 

The HR 4-4-0T is very nice; indeed, the best of what you've shown. 

 

I assume the Clan, NER Atlantic (what a strange shade of green?), A1 and A2/2 are DJH? In the case of the last-mentioned, it seems to have inherited a different tender (of the wrong type for 60506). The relationship between the union link and combination lever is back to front, but you say it runs. 

 

 

Here's my own DJH 60506 for comparison (painted by Ian Rathbone). Please note the streamlined non-corridor tender and the union link/combination lever arrangement.

 

Is the Lord Nelson a Craftsman kit? 

 

I'm building an LN..............

 

 

 

From a Jamieson kit!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[robertcwp]

12 minutes ago, rka said:

Which southern pride coaches are you disposing of? 

None. The scrap ones now minus wheels and in some cases couplings are a few blue/grey, maroon and green Mark 1s. They are a mix of types. I built lots of them in the 1990s. Some have been sold and others were rebuilt with etched sides and are still in service.

[Willie Whizz]

That NER Atlantic reminds me of “Henry the Green Engine” in early prints of Rev. Awdry’s books …

[westerner]

Sorry to interupt yet again with O gauge stuff.

 

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, richard i said:

Quiz question of the assembled masses. In a chassis for a 4-4-0, what do people have as the distance between the outside edges of bearings from one side to the other, so that the wheels have enough, but not too much lateral movement in oo?

I know back to back of the wheels are 14.5 but the bearing faces would have to be narrower than that, but what?

Historically, I have found comet pre-made spacers leave the bearings tight against the back of the wheels. 

many thanks for advice.

 I'd clamp a wheel to a solid piece of metal, say the steel rule and then measure the distance between the rule and the wheel rim with a feeler gauge. The distance between the wheel hubs will then be the back-to-back minus twice the measurement you've taken. 

[Dragonboy]

17 hours ago, polybear said:

On the subject of insurance (and I think I'm right in my understanding here):

 

If you insure a collection for £5000 when it's actually worth double that then, in the event of total loss (a fire, for example) the Insurance Company will only pay out £2500 as you were under-insured.

From my pre pensioner dark days when I worked, I can confirm that you are correct in that statement.

 

That fact caused me some head scratching many years ago when I set up a spreadsheet on which I itemised locos with their purchase cost, and also coaching stock against MRP or a best guess. Chuck in several hundreds of wagons and hit Autosum and I was astonished at the total. 
 

As most of my collection is weathered and so trashed, and a lot is irreplaceable as no longer around even on EBay putting a £ on a collection is a bit akin to being blindfolded and told to pin the tail on the donkey and all this before you count and put a figure on points, buildings and electrics.
 

With the last few years constant price hikes from China I dread to think what that value should be but as said above the true value is the pleasure my trains gives and has given me over the years and in deference to anno domini I no longer buy kits and put them in the third draw down, I now buy and build, and am also working my way through my accumulated stash.

 

Brian

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Dragonboy said:

As most of my collection is weathered and so trashed

 

There's the nub, as I see it. One pays for the pleasure of having on one's layout, running, and in the case of a kit, building, a piece of rolling stock. To suppose that it represents any sort of investment is unwise - unless, of course, you keep your RTR in mint condition or your kit-built stuff is built / painted by one of a handful of "names"*. Most hobbies work on this payment for pleasure principle - if you pay out the price of a RTR locomotive for a couple of Premier League match tickets, you don't expect your heirs to be able to recover that sum.

 

*So I suspect Tony Wright is in an unusual and exceptional position here.

[rodent279]

There aren't many hobbies that are financially rewarding.

If there were, we'd all be partaking of them, and it would be classed as "work".

[Jol Wilkinson]

11 hours ago, billbedford said:

 I'd clamp a wheel to a solid piece of metal, say the steel rule and then measure the distance between the rule and the wheel rim with a feeler gauge. The distance between the wheel hubs will then be the back-to-back minus twice the measurement you've taken. 

Then deduct 1.0mm for the thickness of the two top hat bearing flanges, another .5mm for clearance and twice the thickness of the frames material to get the distance between the insides of the frames. That's the width of the spacers you need.

[Tony Wright]

4 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

There's the nub, as I see it. One pays for the pleasure of having on one's layout, running, and in the case of a kit, building, a piece of rolling stock. To suppose that it represents any sort of investment is unwise - unless, of course, you keep your RTR in mint condition or your kit-built stuff is built / painted by one of a handful of "names"*. Most hobbies work on this payment for pleasure principle - if you pay out the price of a RTR locomotive for a couple of Premier League match tickets, you don't expect your heirs to be able to recover that sum.

 

*So I suspect Tony Wright is in an unusual and exceptional position here.

Good afternoon Stephen,

 

It would be very interesting to discover exactly what my 'unusual and exceptional' position might be in the circumstances. 

 

I suppose I have a 'name' in the hobby; as a professional loco-builder (now retired), author, photographer, demonstrator, after dinner speaker, tutor, etc, etc, but so have many others. Regarding loco-building, I always signed my work and gave it a guarantee for the rest of my life. Obviously, I cannot guarantee against component failure; for instance, I once built a King for a customer (which Ian Rathbone painted, perfectly), and he was delighted with it. Delighted enough to run it for a decade until the motor - a Mashima - conked out. I replaced the motor, and off the engine went again, my only billing him for the cost of the replacement - not my time. Luckily, apart from that instance, my guarantee has not been called upon, other than the odd clean and adjustment to locos running on the likes of Stoke, Charwelton or Merthyr Riverside, which I've made for mates. 

 

Does this mean that of the hundreds of locos I've built for customers, they might have a chance of a 'better' return if they're sold on? I very much doubt it, because even some locos built by the 'real names' in the hobby don't make what might be expected if re-sold - my mind turns to the wonderful Geoff Holt-built locos from the late David Jenkinson's collection which were auctioned off at 'disappointing' prices. 

 

No, I think your summing up of the situation is spot-on. As others have also said, the true worth of a model is the enjoyment one gets out of it, by building it (or, if it's a commission, owning it), not what it might realise for one's heirs.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Tony Wright
clumsy grammar

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Does this mean that of the hundreds of locos I've built for customers, they might have a chance of a 'better' return if they're sold on? I very much doubt it, because even some locos built by the 'real names' in the hobby don't make what might be expected if re-sold - my mind turns to the wonderful Geoff Holt-built locos from the late David Jenkinson's collection which were auctioned off at 'disappointing' prices. 

 

As you indicate, your models are built for use not ornament and certainly you have a "name" as a builder of high-quality locomotives that work - the fact that because they work they're used and so components wear out is hardly to be considered a fault!

 

I suspect that the price realised if sold off would depend very much on how the sale was organised. from what I've gleaned of the Jenkinson auction, it was badly managed. I suppose some models from that collection will have reappeared at auction or otherwise been sold on. It would be interesting to know what prices they have fetched compared with what they sold for at the estate auction. 

[polybear]

12 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

I suspect that the price realised if sold off would depend very much on how the sale was organised. from what I've gleaned of the Jenkinson auction, it was badly managed. I suppose some models from that collection will have reappeared at auction or otherwise been sold on. It would be interesting to know what prices they have fetched compared with what they sold for at the estate auction. 

 

I just Googled that Auction and whilst some failed to achieve their reserve, many far exceeded it - some by as much as two or three times.