Wright writes.....

[gr.king]

I think the provision over over-simplified and misleading (dumbed down) information, such as the "era" system, supposedly for the "guidance" of the previously completely un-informed, is worse than giving them no information at all.

Any suggestion for instance that 1923-1947 can be regarded as a single era is nonsense. I suggest that on the LNER at least one could probably identify at least five or six different periods within that time span, and many of the models properly appropriate to the various periods cannot be used correctly side-by-side. I don't imagine that the LMS or Southern had anything like uniformity throughout those two and half decades either.

 

Misinformation from sellers who only want to sell, regardless of the truth, is a curse.  A good current example is the "authoritative" but probably wrong description of one of the preserved GNR tenders paired with the Stirling 8 Foot Single as a "Sturrock" item. Even at first glance it lacks a number of typical Sturrock features but displays many of the standard features of a Stirling wood-framed tender.

Edited November 15, 2023 by gr.king
spelling mistake

[LNER4479]

 

13 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

The question, I think, is 'why, AS it's flangeless'; in other words, why does it need to be such a small diameter, being flangeless?

 

CJI.

 

Agreed (that that was the question) - and a possible answer is that the manufacturer is taking into account (possibly a little TOO much?) the roller coaster nature of track towards the trainset end of the spectrum. Encounter a high spot in the track and the thing is balancing on its centre drivers with consequent risk of loss of current contact and derailment.

Edited November 14, 2023 by LNER4479

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, LNER4479 said:

 

 

Agreed (that that was the question) - and a possible answer is that the manufacturer is taking into account (possibly a little TOO much?) the roller coaster nature of track towards the trainset end of the spectrum. Encounter a high spot in the track and the thing is balancing on its centre drivers with consequent risk of loss of current contact and derailment.

Good morning Graham,

 

Ah, yes - the much-dreaded 'see-saw' effect! 

 

With every set of loco frames I make where six, eight or ten drivers are involved, I always arrange for the centre/middle drivers to be a 'smidgen' higher that the outer ones; no more than the thickness of a piece of Basildon Bond writing paper. 

 

What I do is broach out the holes in the frames for those centre/middle axles a bit more than a 'snug' fit for the top hat bearings. Then, when soldering these bearings in, I push the iron so that the bearings are at the top of their holes. 

 

Works every time.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Tony Wright
missing 'v'

[Roger Sunderland]

Tony

Please May I ask you and your esteemed followers a couple of questions regarding the Peppercorn A2’s. 
Firstly, I’m aware that these locos could be heavy on coal use but can anyone confirm if, particularly in their latter days, they were used on more mundane duties, including freight.

Secondly I’ve seen photos of some Scottish based A2’s with the diagonal yellow stripe on the cab side. Does anyone know if 60526 “Sugar Palm “ received this, and if so when?

 This is in connection with a project I’m currently undertaking.

 Thank you.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

5 hours ago, cctransuk said:

...The question, I think, is 'why, AS it's flangeless'; in other words, why does it need to be such a small diameter, being flangeless?

The venerable Bachmann 9Fmodel has the flangeless wheelset tyre outside diameter within 0.01mm of that of the flanged wheelsets (measurements taken when new in 2006). There is a very pronounced taper on the inside of the flangeless wheelsets.

 

A few years regular operation created a polished track on the flangeless tyres, they are very definitely in contact with the rail, no problems as a result

[MikeParkin65]

7 minutes ago, 34theletterbetweenB&D said:

The venerable Bachmann 9Fmodel has the flangeless wheelset tyre outside diameter within 0.01mm of that of the flanged wheelsets (measurements taken when new in 2006). There is a very pronounced taper on the inside of the flangeless wheelsets.

 

A few years regular operation created a polished track on the flangeless tyres, they are very definitely in contact with the rail, no problems as a result

I guess over a longer period of time the flangeless centre driver will get nearer the railhead as the axles of the drivers slowly wear away the chassis, the Bachmann model not having separate bearings. I've read comments on RMWEB from owners of the Bachmann version claiming to have worn out the chassis of a 9F although I haven't experienced that myself. 

[LNER4479]

1 hour ago, Roger Sunderland said:

Please May I ask you and your esteemed followers a couple of questions regarding the Peppercorn A2’s. 
... can anyone confirm if, particularly in their latter days, they were used on more mundane duties, including freight.

Hi Roger,

 

The Peppercorn A2 was designed from the outset as a mixed traffic loco and could be diagrammed equally for freight (albeit, express, time-sensitive workings) as passenger.

 

A quick Google around found this picture:

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/496662665138577074/

 

Nothing mundane about a fish train - it was important, high revenue traffic! I'm sure a further dig around would find more such pictures, even going back to the early 1950s.

 

That date (1961) is at the cusp of the diesel takeover and the start of the rundown of steam. From that date onwards, even the most prestigious of locos could be seen on freight trains. Depends on the era your project is aimed at?

[andytrains]

7 hours ago, john new said:

Because it is on the prototypes. Long wheelbase and designed so as to be less restricted on route availability.  Modern track changes in point work design to use raised sections have meant they can no longer be run on Network Rail lines.

Yes but the wheel touches the track in real life.

[Barry Ten]

15 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

 

 

15 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

 I've read comments on RMWEB from owners of the Bachmann version claiming to have worn out the chassis of a 9F although I haven't experienced that myself. 

 

 

What are these people doing to their models? Tieing house bricks to them? Sitting on them?

 

[60027Merlin]

Regarding the A2 on a fish train running through Princes Street Gardens.

 

The notation accompanying the photo is misleading as it is heading south and not going to Millerhill. Waverley Station was too busy with passenger workings and all freight in both directions was diagrammed to go round the Sub. The exception being the express fish trains which worked into the Waverley from Aberdeen. On arrival in the Waverley a quick change of loco took place then continued south to Newcastle.

 

If it was heading for Millerhill from the north it would have crossed over from the Aberdeen line to the Glasgow line at Saughton Junction in the west of the city then entering the Sub. just before Haymarket Shed.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by 60027Merlin

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I guess over a longer period of time the flangeless centre driver will get nearer the railhead as the axles of the drivers slowly wear away the chassis, the Bachmann model not having separate bearings. I've read comments on RMWEB from owners of the Bachmann version claiming to have worn out the chassis of a 9F although I haven't experienced that myself. 

I have three Bachmann 9fs from the earliest releases, one of which has had a serious amount of running involving 48-wagon trains and 1-in-50 gradients, minimum radius 3'.

 

I haven't noticed any deterioration whatever in running, if anything it just keeps getting better.

 

Mind you, the mechanism does get cleaned out and re-lubricated annually.

 

John

[Tony Wright]

Four friends visited today, one of whom (Ian Smith) brought along these very interesting models...........

 

 

 

 

A DJH L Class.

 

 

 

An original Merchant Navy.

 

 

 

 

A train of Roadrailers (never before seen on Little Bytham).

 

 

And some SR brake vans.

 

Ian tells me he'll explain all about these later. 

 

Thanks chaps for a really splendid day!

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Tony Wright

[rowanj]

4 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said:

Tony

Please May I ask you and your esteemed followers a couple of questions regarding the Peppercorn A2’s. 
Firstly, I’m aware that these locos could be heavy on coal use but can anyone confirm if, particularly in their latter days, they were used on more mundane duties, including freight.

Secondly I’ve seen photos of some Scottish based A2’s with the diagonal yellow stripe on the cab side. Does anyone know if 60526 “Sugar Palm “ received this, and if so when?

 This is in connection with a project I’m currently undertaking.

 Thank you.

There are plenty of photos of the A2;s on freight turns- usually, as has been said, and the more important fully-fitted turns.

 

60526 was a York engine for all of it's rediculously short 14 - year life. It went into store at Scarborough in Sept 1962, from where it was withdrawn- well before the yellow stripe began to appear.

 

John

Edited November 14, 2023 by rowanj

[Tony Wright]

With preparations for the York Show next Easter well under way, I'm sending a few shots I have of some of the layouts which will be featuring.

 

Including..................

 

 

Ellesmere.

 

 

Grantham.

 

 

Ivybridge.

 

 

And South Pelaw. 

 

 

[Clive Mortimore]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

Four friends visited today, one of whom (Ian Smith) brought along these very interesting models...........

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

A train of Roadrailers (never before seen on Little Bytham).

 

 

And some SR brake vans.

 

Ian tells me he'll explain all about these later. 

 

Thanks chaps for a really splendid day!

 

 

I like the Roadrailer train. 

 

As for the RCH brake van (the one on the left), very nice to see a model of the SR one of the four built. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Clive Mortimore

[Tony Wright]

A2s?

 

I cannot find a prototype picture I can show of a Peppercorn A2 on freight work.........

 

 

Certainly on Class 1 jobs.

 

 

And on a running-in turn.

 

Please observe copyright restrictions on these two images.

 

In model form, however, I'm more than happy to have my A2s on freight jobs................

 

 

 

On Stoke Summit.

 

 

And the same loco now on Little Bytham.

 

 

Which also sees some express work as well.

 

 

 

Two views of BRONZINO on respective Up and Down fast freights.

 

 

And also BLUE PETER on an Up fast freight.

 

It's not all on freight jobs one sees Bytham's A2s.............

 

 

VELOCITY on its way back to Tyneside on a Down express.

 

 

And York's SUGAR PALM on its way to the capital on a Class 1 job (this loco, riding on its EM frames, now runs on Retford).

 

 

And BRONZINO on a Down express.

 

 

BRONZINOs are obviously popular. Mine and Eric Kidd's side by side.................

 

 

I can certainly justify a Scottish-based A2 on a running-in turn - TUDOR MINSTREL all the way from Dundee!

 

 

Visiting A2s to Little Bytham can haul............

 

 

Express goods. David West's BRONZINO (minus lamps!).

 

 

And express jobs. Geoff West's HAPPY KNIGHT.

 

 

And Eric Kidd's SUN CHARIOT. 

 

Anyone else got A2 shots?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Northmoor]

4 hours ago, andytrains said:

Yes but the wheel touches the track in real life.

That's because every axle is sprung; on the model the bearings are fixed in the frames so the loco cannot "settle down" until all wheels are supporting some load.

[ScRSG]

5 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said:

Tony

Please May I ask you and your esteemed followers a couple of questions regarding the Peppercorn A2’s. 
Firstly, I’m aware that these locos could be heavy on coal use but can anyone confirm if, particularly in their latter days, they were used on more mundane duties, including freight.

Secondly I’ve seen photos of some Scottish based A2’s with the diagonal yellow stripe on the cab side. Does anyone know if 60526 “Sugar Palm “ received this, and if so when?

 This is in connection with a project I’m currently undertaking.

 Thank you.

AS far as I am aware (but I stand to be corrected) the only A2's to have received a yellow stripe were 60527 and 60535, which were latterly allocated to Polmadie and hence could appear on the WCML (But most unlikely south of Crewe!)

Chas

[johndon]

1 hour ago, Tony Wright said:

With preparations for the York Show next Easter well under way, I'm sending a few shots I have of some of the layouts which will be featuring.

 

And South Pelaw. 

 

 

 

We need to get Warley out of the way first 😁

 

Just in case it's not clear from the photo, the layout was still very much under construction when Tony photographed it.

 

John

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

4 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I guess over a longer period of time the flangeless centre driver will get nearer the railhead as the axles of the drivers slowly wear away the chassis, the Bachmann model not having separate bearings. I've read comments on RMWEB from owners of the Bachmann version claiming to have worn out the chassis of a 9F although I haven't experienced that myself. 

No wear out on mine:

3 hours ago, Barry Ten said:

What are these people doing to their models? Tieing house bricks to them? Sitting on them?

Well, I stuff mine with lead for sufficient traction to reliably restart 2.5 kg trains all on 1 in 80. The Bach A1s and WD 2-8-0s are the oldest, and double the weight they came out of the factory, no trouble so far despite very regular operation over more than 20 years. I looked up my 9F record and the full polished track on the flangeless wheelset tyres happened toward the end of 6 years operation. 

 

On brass bearings, I converted a former push along Hornby 9F with brass axle bearings to loco drive and got it up to just shy of 800g, for traction on a wet rail on a garden line, where factors like wind can really pile on the need for plentiful traction.  When it pulled itself apart (because a wheel on the driven axle slipped on the axle seat) there was some wear evident in the bearings, but outdoors is very dirty...

 

Grease in the axle locations is a winner at keeping wear minimal in my opinion. I suspect my personal mechanism will wear out before that of the models...

[Tony Wright]

1 hour ago, johndon said:

 

We need to get Warley out of the way first 😁

 

Just in case it's not clear from the photo, the layout was still very much under construction when Tony photographed it.

 

John

 

Good evening John,

 

'still very much under construction' at the time I took the picture, the layout might have been. But, even at this 'early' stage it looks terrific - the layout, by the way, not my picture..........

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

 

 

[Keith Turbutt]

 

18 hours ago, Roger Sunderland said:

 

Secondly I’ve seen photos of some Scottish based A2’s with the diagonal yellow stripe on the cab side.

 

 Although a Thompson A2/3, not a Peppercorn A2, I saw 60512, Steady Aim, at Perth shed after withdrawal in August 1965 with a yellow warning stripe -see photo attached. I think I read somewhere that this had been incorrectly applied. Another Scottish loco which was incorrectly applied with a warning stripe was BR Std Clan Pacific, 72006, Clan Mackenzie.

I was fortunate to have a run behind this loco on the December 1963 LCGB railtour Paddington to Swindon Works.

 

I've read through the earlier discussions re the eras and I agree they are a useful starting point for researching your particular period of interest but as Tony has often said, there's no better research than a reliably captioned photo to get things right.

 

In the days when my club exhibited a layout, because club members had different allegiances to different regions and periods of BR, we did ring the changes during the exhibition.  But we had a layout manager who strictly enforced what trains/locos would be appropriate to be seen together. Clive should remember it well!

 

Although yellow warning panels started to be applied from 1961/2, I took a photo of a Brush Type2 (Class 31 to younger readers) taken as late as June1963 on the Colchester diesel servicing point. Does anyone have a later record of a diesel without a yellow warning panel?

Was there ever any analysis whether the yellow warning panels, small or large, were an effective safety measure?

 

My modeling interest, purely based on nostalgia, is in the eras 4 and 5 and it was perfectly possible to still see the earlier lion and wheel emblem post 1957 especially on the lesser steam classes. I think the express locos ,8Ps and 7Ps, would have been changed quite early on introduction of the later totem. 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by Keith Turbutt
Added Colchester photo and corrected date- June 1963 not 1964

[robertcwp]

26 minutes ago, Keith Turbutt said:

 

Although yellow warning panels started to be applied from 1961/2, I took a photo of a Brush Type2 (Class 31 to younger readers) taken as late as 1964 on the Colchester diesel servicing point. Does anyone have a later record of a diesel without a yellow warning panel?

Was there ever any analysis whether the yellow warning panels, small or large, were an effective safety measure?

 

I believe one or two Class 22s went from green with no yellow panel to blue but don't have any proof. The Southern was late and slow in applying yellow panels and there were Class 33s without them in 1967 and a few into 1968.

 

D6583_Merstham_4-5-68 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

D6544_Wimbledon_26-5-67 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

D6564_SotonC_8-3-67 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

And a Class 71:

 

E5002_GoldenArrow_nrTwitton_27-4-68 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[Barry Ten]

3 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

With preparations for the York Show next Easter well under way, I'm sending a few shots I have of some of the layouts which will be featuring.

 

Including..................

 

 

 

Dave Stone (Wenlock) and I will be there with Dave's Sherton Abbas in 7mm. I'm sure Dave won't mind me posting a few of his pics. We did Manchester last year but this will be the furthest show so far. It really is a magnificent layout and I'm very lucky that I get a chance to play with it from time to time!

 

 

 

 

[Andy R]

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

With preparations for the York Show next Easter well under way, I'm sending a few shots I have of some of the layouts which will be featuring.

 

Including..................

 

 

Ellesmere.

 

 

Grantham.

 

 

Ivybridge.

 

 

And South Pelaw. 

 

 

Great photos Tony- even if we 'colonials' cant get to the show in person its great to see some excellent layout shots. Keep them coming please. Andy R NZ