Wright writes.....

[MJI]

I could glue the Keen couplers together, but i think the continental design are not vertically secure.

 

So i will try to get some of these and trial them on 1 rake.

[billbedford]

10 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Yes, I realise that, Andrew,

 

On closer examination of the model, there are sliding vents above some of the windows in the open saloons - four on each side! 

 

I think I'll just put it to one side until I have more photographic evidence. The notion of a Kitchen Car appeals to me (no interior to bother about), but just imagine the howls of fury I'd be receiving if I just went ahead by a fair bit of guesswork? In carmine/cream, it would look very attractive I'm sure, but not if it's not 'accurate'. 

 

 

The photo I posted of 5116 above is from the same diagram, 5M3, as the model you have. Note that the model has two sets of double windows at the saloons while the photo shows two long windows in their place. Note also that these longer windows are shallower than the others on the same side. This was to make room for the standard sliding vent widows to be fitted above.

[gr.king]

7 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

A sensible thing to do, you have my address 🤣🤣🤣

 

I wondered for a moment if you might offer Tony what he'd paid for it 😉.

 

If I had any need or use for another restaurant car, certain knowledge of the surface finish on the model, and felt that I have time in the foreseeable future to finish off the model in teak, I might have made a rival offer...

[Tony Wright]

One of the 'perks' in finding new homes for models on behalf of bereaved/distressed families, is that I get first refusal as it were with regard to anything subsequently offered for sale.

 

Such was the case with this................

 

 

 

 

The beginnings of a Little Engines O4/7. I opened the box yesterday afternoon and thought, why not? I'll start it! 

 

It was not on the recent list because I nabbed it first (at the agreed price, by the way). 

 

It's not the first Little Engines O4/7 I've had for sale............

 

 

This completed one was sold on behalf of a widow.

 

I also have another one which is now a Bytham loco..............

 

 

 

Built from a Little Engines kit by Rob Kinsey, it's run on Leighford, Stoke Summit and Charwelton, and now on Bytham. I can't recall whether Rob or I painted it, but I weathered it. 

 

I wasn't keen on the pony wheels, so...........

 

 

I've replaced them.

 

Why Rob left the brakes and the balance weights off, I don't know (the prevailing 'standards' at the time?). 

 

Now, I hope this thread is concerned with 'accuracy', because..........

 

 

This is the actual loco which the new model will represent. It's unusual inasmuch as it's an O4/7 which is vacuum braked (rebuilt from an O4/1). It's also one I saw at Retford and Kiveton Park.

 

Speaking of 'accuracy' how far should I pursue that 'ideal' in completing the model? The replacement smokebox? Definitely. The dented cylinder cover? Perhaps. The part-patched cab? Maybe. The tender top coping splitting and coming away from the main body? Probably not. The chalked numbers on the boiler cladding and scribbling on the tender? An interesting freehand exercise? The overall heavy-weathering? Of course. 

 

It might even be called 'extreme modelling'!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Tony Wright]

9 minutes ago, gr.king said:

 

I wondered for a moment if you might offer Tony what he'd paid for it 😉.

 

If I had any need or use for another restaurant car, certain knowledge of the surface finish on the model, and felt that I have time in the foreseeable future to finish off the model in teak, I might have made a rival offer...

Good morning Graeme,

 

Wonder away, though I can tell you it was a barter deal - over three hours at my going rate (£25.00 per hour) to put the valve gear on to a V2 Alan Rose was building! An interesting morning in my workshop to say the least.

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Jesse Sim]

2 hours ago, gr.king said:

 

I wondered for a moment if you might offer Tony what he'd paid for it 😉.

 

If I had any need or use for another restaurant car, certain knowledge of the surface finish on the model, and felt that I have time in the foreseeable future to finish off the model in teak, I might have made a rival offer...

Well the only sensible thing we could do is duel. Does anyone have a glove or one of these I can borrow for the challenge? 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Jesse Sim

[billbedford]

I've turned up some diagrams that may help answer some questions about these GCR restaurant cars. 
But first, some background information:

The GCR built 12 matchboard restaurant cars between 1911 and 1916 from four diagrams. All were kitchen composites. 

The diagrams were:
5M1, two built 1911, numbers 304, 315. These were 56' long and used on the Newcastle - Bournemouth services. 
5M2, seven built 1911/3/4, numbers 44, 118, 123, 127, 136, 705, 707. These, and subsequent builds, were 60' long and used as general service stock. 
5M3, two built 1913, numbers 77, 116. These had full-with dining salons on either side of the kitchen instead of two compartments as in earlier carriages.  
5M3, One built in 1916, number 699, with anti-collision buffers. 

 

The diagrams add the following information: Both 5M1s were rebuilt as kitchen cars, though the number 21484 in the NEA series replaces (5)304.
All seven 5M2s became kitchen cars. 
Number (5)116 is titled "Unclassed Restaurant Car". 
There is no information about either (5)77 or (5)699.  
I suspect that one of these, probably (5)77, had already been transferred to the NEA, and there is a diagram referring to it under its new number. 

 

There are a couple of other points to consider which have a bearing on their liveries. I believe that the railways withdrew all restaurant car services during WW2. I would then expect that these pre-grouping designs were not a priority to reinstate afterwards. Also, some older restaurant cars had a cream and green livery to enable them to run with tourist stock during the 30s. I have never seen a list, so I don't know if such a list would include any of these carriages. 

[jwealleans]

Further to Bill's post, Dennis Seabrook photographed the following:

E5118E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream - photo undated.
E5118E as above at Wood Green.  Photo also undated.

E5127E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated
E5127E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated (different view to above)

E5136£ as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated
E5136£ as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated (different view to above)

E5315E as Kitchen Car in teak at Hornsey Up Sidings, 1955

E5705E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at Hornsey Up Sidings, 1955
E5705E as Kitchen Car in maroon at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated

E5707E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream in a train.  No date or location supplied.

E21484E as Kitchen Car in all over plain livery at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated

 

On the subject of green and cream dining cars, the NE Area painted their ex-GN 12 wheeler in this livery.  It's the only one I know of having been identified.

 

 

[Jon4470]

Prompted by Bill’s post I had a trawl through the book of LNER Restaurant Car Diagrams (NERA publication)

 

From this publication I get the following details.
 

5M1.  21484 became NE diagram 50 Kitchen car - converted in 1934

5M1.   5315 became GC diagram 5G3 Kitchen car - converted in 1935

 

The 7 5M2s became GC diagram 5G4 Kitchen car - converted in 1935

 

577 stayed as GC diagram 5M3 Composite Restaurant Car.
5116  was altered to “either class” (unfortunately no date recorded, although the diagram looks identical to 577… so probably no physical alteration made) and became GC Diagram 5M3A

 

5699 stayed as GC diagram 5M4 Composite Restaurant Car

 

When I say that some carriages stayed as Restaurant Cars what I really mean is that there is no annotation to say that they were converted, or scrapped. This is not definitive proof that they stayed as Restaurant Cars!

 

Jon

[Tony Wright]

55 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

Further to Bill's post, Dennis Seabrook photographed the following:

E5118E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream - photo undated.
E5118E as above at Wood Green.  Photo also undated.

E5127E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated
E5127E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated (different view to above)

E5136£ as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated
E5136£ as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated (different view to above)

E5315E as Kitchen Car in teak at Hornsey Up Sidings, 1955

E5705E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream at Hornsey Up Sidings, 1955
E5705E as Kitchen Car in maroon at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated

E5707E as Kitchen Car in Crimson/Cream in a train.  No date or location supplied.

E21484E as Kitchen Car in all over plain livery at 'W. Works' (Wolverton?) - undated

 

On the subject of green and cream dining cars, the NE Area painted their ex-GN 12 wheeler in this livery.  It's the only one I know of having been identified.

 

 

Thanks Jonathan,

 

How does one gain access to observe these photographs, please? 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[New Haven Neil]

On 04's...

 

 

Never could get 8 coupled chassis to run well, so.....

[Chas Levin]

23 hours ago, Bucoops said:

Is it cynical if it is true?

 

Frequently 😐.

[65179]

On 09/12/2023 at 13:35, jwealleans said:

We've been here before, Tony, with your GE Restaurant Car.   Catering vehicles were repainted as they were estimated to have a medium term future at least.   The GE ones were in traffic long enough to be painted maroon.   However if this particular type was already being withdrawn at Nationalisation then even an all over repaint seems unlikely as Graeme suggests.  

 

I've had a quick flick through the Seabrook photos and all the former GC catering cars he photographed had been converted to kitchen cars as has already been said.   A few are in a plain all over colour (presumably brown), one or two are visibly teak (one at Hornsey in 1955) but most have been given blood and custard and at least one is in maroon.

 

Here's another variation on GC matchboard restaurant/kitchen cars immediately post-nationalisation:

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aca504--rkk-br-e53357----xgc-at-doncaster-ca1950-f3r-gas-tanks-underneath-truss-rod-underframe.html

Teak (?) but with BR lettering and numbering. No idea what diagram this one is. Does anyone know?

 

A good few years ago there were a set of immediately post-nationalisation coaching stock photos for sale on ebay, @jwealleans may well remember. They were mostly GE subjects, but with one or two GC coaches in among. One featured one of the 5G4 kitchen conversions E5127 in teak, lettered Restaurant Car with LNER number and just the E prefix in BR style.

 

Simon

[billbedford]

32 minutes ago, 65179 said:

Here's another variation on GC matchboard restaurant/kitchen cars immediately post-nationalisation:

https://hmrs.org.uk/-aca504--rkk-br-e53357----xgc-at-doncaster-ca1950-f3r-gas-tanks-underneath-truss-rod-underframe.html

Teak (?) but with BR lettering and numbering. No idea what diagram this one is. Does anyone know?

 

 

That is the kitchen side of one of the 56' conversions. E5315E?

[jwealleans]

Windows and vents match E21484, which is the only one I've seen with the louvres extreme right.

[polybear]

3 hours ago, New Haven Neil said:

On 04's...

 

 

Never could get 8 coupled chassis to run well, so.....

 

That's an interesting shed arrangement - any idea where it is Neil?

[Andy Hayter]

The talk of ventilators reminds me that Robinson was a fan of forced ventilation - whatever that was.  The consequence being that many of his coaches had no window ventilators - look at the original Barhams versus the LNER modified ones.  I assume such changes meant that the forced ventilation was lacking in some respects.

[St Enodoc]

8 minutes ago, Andy Hayter said:

The talk of ventilators reminds me that Robinson was a fan of forced ventilation - whatever that was.  The consequence being that many of his coaches had no window ventilators - look at the original Barhams versus the LNER modified ones.  I assume such changes meant that the forced ventilation was lacking in some respects.

Probably the same concept as the pressure ventilation used in later vehicles. All very well until the power fails...

[Keith Turbutt]

2 hours ago, polybear said:

 

That's an interesting shed arrangement - any idea where it is Neil?

I believe it was the servicing area at York adjacent to the two turntables. The concrete roof is the same as photos I have seen on the internet. The area has more recently been used by the museum for restoration, most noteably the recent major overhaul of Sir Nigel. See also photo of 60103 taken by me in 2017 which I believe is standing in this area. There was a high level public viewing platform in the museum to see the work being undertaken. I believe it has since been repurposed as an area with interactive exhibits and for which there is a charge to enter.

 

I attach a photo seen on flickr taken at the time of the Home Counties Railway Society tour in October 1964 which I was on. The rostered loco for the trip was 70020 Mercury. I only took B&W photos on this occasion but not in this area. Hope I don't offend anyone by copying this photo here and will immediately delete if requested. 

 

Edited December 10, 2023 by Keith Turbutt
Correcting spelling and added photo of 60103 standing in this area in 2017

[billbedford]

3 hours ago, jwealleans said:

Windows and vents match E21484, which is the only one I've seen with the louvres extreme right.

 

The louvres were fitted on the refrigerator/cold larder compartment. On the 56' coaches it was on the right-hand end and the left-hand on the others  

[Tony Wright]

9 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

The talk of ventilators reminds me that Robinson was a fan of forced ventilation - whatever that was.  The consequence being that many of his coaches had no window ventilators - look at the original Barhams versus the LNER modified ones.  I assume such changes meant that the forced ventilation was lacking in some respects.

Good morning Andy,

 

The later 'concept' of 'forced' ventilation was used by the LNER in the magnificent 1938 'pressure-ventilated' teak sets built for 'The Flying Scotsman', and in the immediate post-War years on the equally-magnificent Thompson 'pressure-ventilated' steel-sided cars built for the non-stop on the ECML; originally 'The Flying Scotsman', then 'The Capitals Limited' and finally 'The Elizabethan'. They were characterised by having almost nothing on their roofs (other than the RFs) and fewer window ventilators. Apparently the system worked well and was reliable. However (and this evidence is only anecdotal) it worked best if the whole trains were PV. In later years, when BR Mk.1 cars appeared in the sets, because the PV cars were effectively at a higher atmospheric pressure (not really enough to make ears 'pop'), they tried to vent adjacent cars as well, and the system was overworked to some extent. As I said, I have no written proof of this, just casual conversations with railway staff (all long gone now, I'm afraid), though it does sound plausible. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Keith Turbutt]

58 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

Good morning Andy,

.. and in the immediate post-War years on the equally-magnificent Thompson 'pressure-ventilated' steel-sided cars built for the non-stop on the ECML; originally 'The Flying Scotsman', then 'The Capitals Limited' and finally 'The Elizabethan'.

 

A good view of the Thompson roofs with pressure ventilation can be see in the opening scenes of the 1954 BT film 'Elizabethan Express'  available on YouTube. The KingsX departure is filmed overhead from the station footbridge.

 

One of my favourite films that was often shown on wet days at primary school when we had to stay in the hall at lunchtime. Enjoy !

 

  

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by Keith Turbutt
Spelling

[t-b-g]

23 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

One of the 'perks' in finding new homes for models on behalf of bereaved/distressed families, is that I get first refusal as it were with regard to anything subsequently offered for sale.

 

Such was the case with this................

 

 

 

 

The beginnings of a Little Engines O4/7. I opened the box yesterday afternoon and thought, why not? I'll start it! 

 

It was not on the recent list because I nabbed it first (at the agreed price, by the way). 

 

It's not the first Little Engines O4/7 I've had for sale............

 

 

This completed one was sold on behalf of a widow.

 

I also have another one which is now a Bytham loco..............

 

 

 

Built from a Little Engines kit by Rob Kinsey, it's run on Leighford, Stoke Summit and Charwelton, and now on Bytham. I can't recall whether Rob or I painted it, but I weathered it. 

 

I wasn't keen on the pony wheels, so...........

 

 

I've replaced them.

 

Why Rob left the brakes and the balance weights off, I don't know (the prevailing 'standards' at the time?). 

 

Now, I hope this thread is concerned with 'accuracy', because..........

 

 

This is the actual loco which the new model will represent. It's unusual inasmuch as it's an O4/7 which is vacuum braked (rebuilt from an O4/1). It's also one I saw at Retford and Kiveton Park.

 

Speaking of 'accuracy' how far should I pursue that 'ideal' in completing the model? The replacement smokebox? Definitely. The dented cylinder cover? Perhaps. The part-patched cab? Maybe. The tender top coping splitting and coming away from the main body? Probably not. The chalked numbers on the boiler cladding and scribbling on the tender? An interesting freehand exercise? The overall heavy-weathering? Of course. 

 

It might even be called 'extreme modelling'!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you want to make the model more accurate Tony, you might like to have a look at the outside frames on the tender and the tender footsteps.

 

I think the assembly arrangements may have been misinterpreted when the loco was built as the frames shouldn't be just behind the valance. They should be set further back. In turn, that left no room for the steps to fit where they should and they have been put on the outside, rather than behind the valance under the footplate. This has led to them being too high up and nowhere near in line with the loco steps.

 

For a GCR enthusiast, it rather spoils the look of the tender. To me, it is a rather bigger departure from accuracy than some of the ones you mention.

 

Tony

 

[Tony Wright]

24 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

 

If you want to make the model more accurate Tony, you might like to have a look at the outside frames on the tender and the tender footsteps.

 

I think the assembly arrangements may have been misinterpreted when the loco was built as the frames shouldn't be just behind the valance. They should be set further back. In turn, that left no room for the steps to fit where they should and they have been put on the outside, rather than behind the valance under the footplate. This has led to them being too high up and nowhere near in line with the loco steps.

 

For a GCR enthusiast, it rather spoils the look of the tender. To me, it is a rather bigger departure from accuracy than some of the ones you mention.

 

Tony

 

Thanks Tony,

 

I've already anticipated this, and I've already fixed the tender frames inset (I'm building it in OO, though EM might give some clearance issues). Having built Little Engines GC tenders before, I was aware of this.

 

I didn't build the finished O4/7 illustrated, but I'm certainly not going to alter it. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[dibateg]

Talking of patches - I added this large patch just below the coal rails on the back of this Adams radial 30583 when I built it for a customer a few years ago. Patches add to the character of the model, all part of engine picking, but dents and bashes are a little more difficult to make convincing...

 

It shows up a little better with the paint on:-

 

 

Regards

Tony

 

Edited December 11, 2023 by dibateg
More pictures