Wright writes.....

[Chuffer Davies]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

 

Hi Frank,

 

Can I clarify that you are saying the driven axle, or is it perhaps the centre axle (of 3 when fettling an 0-6-0) is always left as a circular hole broached just enough to ensure a working fit, so that any others are filed towards an oval or slot if they are found to be binding?

 

I ask because I am struggling with a large Prairie just now, using Comet components and Markits wheels. This has been built once as a sprung chassis using the current Comet nickel silver etches for frames and motion. Having failed to get rid of a knock I decided to eliminate the possibility that any play or inaccuracy in fitting the hornblocks might be the cause, so I built a second pair of frames with rigid bearings only to arrive at the same impasse.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I believe it to be a mistake to elongate the crank pin holes in the coupling rods associated with the driven axle.  The driven axle is my reference and everything else is adjusted to be compatible with that.

However, If the driven axle is coupled to the other axles via a hinged joint in the coupling rod life is slightly more complicated and in that case I may choose to adjust the crank pin holes of the driven axle having first ensured that the next two axles have been sorted and run smoothly without binding when turned manually.  Most of my 6 or 8 coupled models are driven off the rear axle and so this is the only way I’ve come up with sorting binding.

Regards,

Frank

Edited February 5 by Chuffer Davies
Added the qualified approach for rear axle driven chassis.

[Tony Wright]

8 hours ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

Hi Tony,

    I thought you didn't like Portescaps, or has that fatwa been lifted, in your more mellow years?😁 I remember a TW moan about the "Portescap Whine" coming from my DJH Black 5 and 8F locos, both hauling FA Cup specials via Little Bytham, when Mansfield were away to Norwich.

Good to see the old KX-Jamieson A2/1 brought back to life, Bert Collins, John Edgson, and my bosses would have approved. Back in 1974 I was a humble saturday boy at the KX shop (MRM Co.Ltd), as was Captain Kernow (see above) a few years later.  No doubt you placed the A2/1 commission on your saturday day-off from school in Wolverhampton, I might have even taken the order?  So there's a friendship that has lasted 50 years.

   Jamieson kits (from Cornwall) used to come in no-nonsense plain brown (manilla?) boxes, with a bright yellow wrapper, the contents were effectively sealed, so to many they were a mystery. Even us staff were reluctant to break the seal, since a sellotape repair would look bad if returned to the shelf, but how else were we supposed to display or explain the kits to customers? We did have spare yellow bands for extreme damage, the regular kits used to have printed class details on the end, for "specials", you'd just get a running number of class code, written in ballpoint pen.  Some of the kits were rather basic, couplings rods were drilled rail section, valve gear (where applicable) had to be modified for your particular loco.

     Concerning another current topic on this WW thread, with all senior members of the KX shop now sadly passed away, I think it's safe to reveal that my bosses did knock out "bootleg Romford axles", from time to time, another way of boosting profits, which worked well for years, none of the customers were any the wiser. Except for one day, a customer brought back some axles he'd purchased the week before, saying he couldn't quarter his wheelsets properly. On examination, the squared shoulders were out of parallel, making correct assembly impossible (sloppy lathe work, I know who did it!). More axles were returned and replaced in the ensuing weeks, it was only one rogue batch, most came back, we turned the duds into split axles, but there must be some dodgy originals still out there. 

      Another story from back then, was the great debate amongst customers,  about whether the the Airfix 1001 motor, or the MRM/KX MW5 was the superior motor? We sold both,  but people would often insist on one or the other, we even sold the 5-pole armatures as spares. Well the truth is they were identical, being the same thing, another of my bosses crafty little schemes, we even had a "MW Models" lock-up shop in Henley-On-Thames, to add legitimacy, and give MW5 an address. All the motors were in fact made by Airfix, it was a re-badging exercise, I often got lumbered with the job of re-packaging a few hundred at slack times, they were better than Romford Bulldogs from W&H, our great rivals.  Tee-hee.       BK 

Good evening Brian,

 

I dislike later Portescaps; earlier ones (of which the unit in the A2/1 is an example) don't whine anywhere near as much. 

 

Ah, Jamieson kits! I loved them, still do. What a great way of learning how to build locomotives.

 

This is how they were packed when first in Cornwall......

 

 

Despite the fact that the box had a picture of a GC 4-4-0 on it, this contained a J39.

 

 

And, though this claimed to be a K1, it was actually the K1/1. 

 

I love the 'skoolboy' drawing. 

 

 

In EAMES days, the (finished) locos would fit in the boxes.

 

 

I think this one was hand-cut; for an Ivatt 4 2-6-0.

 

I still have this to build, the Nelson to finish and yet another Jamieson V2 to start! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

 

[St Enodoc]

9 hours ago, Kirby Uncoupler said:

we even had a "MW Models" lock-up shop in Henley-On-Thames, to add legitimacy, and give MW5 an address.

All right, I have to ask.

 

Who were M and W or is that a state secret?

[Methuselah]

8 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Well worth doing a cut-and-shut to the correct length, though the bogies need amending, too.

 

John Isherwood.

Is there a drawing available for the Trestrols....?

[46243]

10 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

With regards the quartering of friction fit plastic driving wheels I personally have a fairly simplistic approach which has never caused me any concerns.  It has previously been documented on WW that the wheels on opposite sides of a chassis do not need to be at exactly 90 degrees offset.  It has been confirmed that the prototype 120 degree offset associated with 3 cylinder locomotives can be successfully made to work in model form.  The 90 degree offset is therefore a cosmetic rather than mechanical constraint, and wIth that in mind:

 

It must be said that it is critical that the axle hole spacings exactly match those of the coupling rods.  Get this wrong and you are pretty well doomed to fail.  When building models with rigid chassis it is hoped that the alignment will have been guaranteed by the manufacturing process.  If building compensated or sprung chassis which utilise horn blocks and guides it is essential that every effort is taken to ensure that these are spaced accurately and that the guides are vertical.  Some sort of jig will be critical to achieving this.  Personally I have the Avonside jig that was available from Eileen's Emporium but pretty much any jig will do, although some are easier to use than others. 

 

Once the axle bearings are all installed, the first stage is to fit all the driving wheels at roughly 90 degree offset (by eye).  As a rule the right hand side crank pins lead the left hand by 90 degrees but this is not an absolute rule for all prototype locomotives, but I always apply that rule on my models (Rule 1).  As a rough guide if the wheels have an even number of spokes then the spokes on opposite wheels should be in alignment, whereas for wheels with an odd number the spokes should be midway between their opposites. 

 

I next fit the coupling rod to all the wheels on one side only of the loco, it doesn't matter which side is chosen.  The wheels are then rotated so that all the crank pins are at approximately either top or bottom dead centre.  I now turn the chassis round and check the alignment of all the crankpins on the side without a coupling rod and make any adjustments (again by eye) until all wheels appear exactly aligned.

 

I now fit the other coupling rod and check for any tight spots when turning the wheels by hand.  Nine times out of ten the wheels will turn without tight spots.  If there is a tight spot then before doing anything else I recheck that all the crankpins along one side still look to be in alignment making any adjustments as I go.  If there remains a tight spot then if the loco has more than two axles, then it is normally possible check the rotation of the chassis two axles at a time.  If the coupling rod is rigid throughout then you will need to remove one or more axles from the chassis leaving the driven axle and one other.  Check if the tight spot still remains, try adjusting the quartering of the non driven axle to see if this cures it, but if there remains a tight spot then set the quartering to minimise the tightness and then attempt to see which crankpin holes needs opening out to cure the problem.  I never adjust crank pin holes with a broach, I always elongate the crankpin holes (on the non driven axle) with a rat tailed needle file, one way or the other depending upon which side of the crankpin hole the crankpin is pressed up against.  This takes some very careful investigation to make sure the hole is elongated in the correct direction.  Once the tight spot has been eliminated on a pair of wheels I then introduce the other axle/s one at a time and repeat the process knowing that if the new axle has re-introduced a tight spot then the issue must be with the wheels on the new axle.  This can be quite time consuming but it is important to be patient and to only remove material from a crankpin hole once you are certain this is required and even then only take a very small amount of metal each time and retest to confirm that this is improving the situation rather than making it worse (in which case you've got the wrong crankpin).

 

This is very much my approach and others may do it differently.  I do see this as a bit of  a black art, and definitely a skill that can only be acquired through personal experience.   It is always better to get the hornblocks correctly spaced in the first place and then you will not need to adjust the crankpin holes at all. 

 

Regards,

 

Frank

I'm really pleased to read this. I only came to the hobby during covid, but I've built a few loco's and saw an old Jamieson Jubilee chassis for sale and decided to buy it.  A match made in HELL!!!

I used 9.5mm spacers from Markits with screw inserts and tested it for being square by putting a 12" length of 1/8 brass rod through the middle axle on my modelling mat. It was absolutely spot on over 11 inches .

I put a Mashima motor with high level gearbox in (which runs smoothly and quietly out of the loco with axle and wheels fitted)) and Markits wheels with a Comet motion set.  My first rod literally fell on. I couldn't stop grinning!!  However, on the other side I had to enlarge the holes and eventually had to do the same on both sides, the holes getting ever larger..  After much bad language I eventually got it to run smoothly at very slow speed but when I accelerated it sounded like a bag of spanners!!

To cut this short I then replaced absolutely everything(and I mean everything) and decided not to enlarge the centre hole (Driven) at all, but to elongate the others.  Sadly, with the same result.  I'm going to take it to the club tomorrow (BELMRC) and hope Messrs Hewitt and Robinson can help.  I think I'll have to bush one of the axles. I checked the middle one for square and assumed the outside two would be accurate.  I suspect it isn't.

I now have much time ,effort and sweat in this and it's fought me very step of the way but I'm not going to be beaten.

 

Cheers

John

PS. I was "Super D" in my early forum days.

[Chamby]

10 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

All right, I have to ask.

 

Who were M and W or is that a state secret?

Did one of them have short, fat, hairy legs?

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Chuffer Davies said:

Hi Jeff,

I believe it to be a mistake to elongate the crank pin holes in the coupling rods associated with the driven axle.  The driven axle is my reference and everything else is adjusted to be compatible with that.

However, If the driven axle is coupled to the other axles via a hinged joint in the coupling rod life is slightly more complicated and in that case I may choose to adjust the crank pin holes of the driven axle having first ensured that the next two axles have been sorted and run smoothly without binding when turned manually.  Most of my 6 or 8 coupled models are driven off the rear axle and so this is the only way I’ve come up with sorting binding.

Regards,

Frank

 

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks for this further clarification. Appreciated.

 

I always prefer to articulate rods on shared crankpins rather than by making a hinged joint. Usually works every time with no problem but not with this particular loco for some reason. I'll have to persevere.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

[Barry O]

Using my engineers eye and looking across the spokes of Gibson drivers I can manage to quarter them so they work just fine...life is sometimes too complicated..

 

What is a pain is the occasional older Romford axles which are too short. You must check them when fitting you make sure the Back to Back is correct. . You can get them to be the correct size using a suitable washer.. but then take care when quartering them.

 

Baz

[Michael Edge]

10 hours ago, Methuselah said:

Is there a drawing available for the Trestrols....?

Trestrol EC drawing was in Model Railway Constructor September 1958.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

20 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

The Triang Trestrol behind it is one of their best models despite the fact that over an inch is missing from the length in the middle - not visible in this photo though.

It's all classically fictional in its Triangness, the well length and bogie wheelbase correct for the 50T rivetted construction Weltrol P, but with the welded frame construction, narrower side members and also a centreline member, from the  55T Trestrol C.

 

Shunt three of the Triang items into Micklehacking wagon works and a little sawing, liberal application of plasticard, cementing and a pair of suitable trestles can result in a credible Trestrol B and C, and a Weltrol P.

[60526]

As luck would have it.

wagon_BR_trestrol.pdf

[60526]

There are also details within the very useful Barrowmore MRG website, page 71/102

 

http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/SpecialVehiclesIssue.pdf

[jwealleans]

Dave Jobling, who isn't a member on here, has cut and shut a number of these into accurate models.   We ran them on Grantham last August.

 

 

 

If anyone's interested, his thread on the LNER Encyclopedia forum steps through the modifications.

 

 

 

Edited February 6 by jwealleans

[Compound2632]

I was interested to see the photo of a Jamieson kit straight out of the box. Whatever the reputation of the kits themselves, the instruction booklet seems to have been printed to a high standard! (Whether the printed words are helpful is another question.)

Edited February 6 by Compound2632

[Peter Eaton]

38 minutes ago, jwealleans said:

LNER Encyclopedia forum steps through the modifications.

hello,

is there a 'quick link' to this please,

thanks Peter 

seems there is an article also in model railway enthusiast July 1997 ??

I like a good read.

Edited February 6 by Peter Eaton
easy update

[jwealleans]

19 minutes ago, Peter Eaton said:

is there a 'quick link' to this please,

 

You beat me to it, I was looking it up.   I've edited a link into the post above.   Starts where I've linked and then really warms up over the page.

Edited February 6 by jwealleans

[jrg1]

21 hours ago, cctransuk said:

 

Well worth doing a cut-and-shut to the correct length, though the bogies need amending, too.

 

John Isherwood.

I used two to produce the correct length and have sprung 6-wheel bogies ready to convert to P4.  A model that can be considerably enhanced and worth the effort.

[Methuselah]

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Trestrol EC drawing was in Model Railway Constructor September 1958.

Thanks Mike - I have now ordered a copy - 🙂

[cctransuk]

2 minutes ago, Methuselah said:

Thanks Mike - I have now ordered a copy - 🙂

 

No need - see 60526's post above.

 

CJI.

[Kirby Uncoupler]

14 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

All right, I have to ask.

 

Who were M and W or is that a state secret?

 

D'ya know, you've got me there, I never asked, or don't remember asking, there were various parts of EAMES/MRM that I never fathomed, and I worked there full-time for ten years, after three years as a saturday boy? I never knew about the shop in Henley, until I stumbled upon it, whilst on holiday on the River Thames. As soon as I got back to work at King's Cross, I asked questions, but none of the local KX staff were aware of it, only when I quizzed a director did I get a reaction, and a cagey response, on a friendly "you don't need to know" basis! There was nothing illegal going on, they probably used the Henley address for buying in the Airfix motors to re-box, and similar.

    E.A.M.E.S. of Reading  (Electrical And Mechanical Equipment Supplies or similar) was run by the Morris family, headed by father Edward W. Morris and David W. Morris (clue?), plus John Gauld in Reading, they bought MRM in KX circa 1971, and ran them as two parallel businesses.  My best guess for MW5, is M for Morris, W for Windings or Wholesale perhaps?, and 5 obviously for 5-pole. Bob Treacher, now retired from Alton Model Centre might know more, he used to work for EAMES, before setting up his own successful business.

                                                                                                 Cheers, Brian.

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

4 hours ago, Barry O said:

Using my engineers eye and looking across the spokes of Gibson drivers I can manage to quarter them so they work just fine...life is sometimes too complicated..

 

What is a pain is the occasional older Romford axles which are too short. You must check them when fitting you make sure the Back to Back is correct. . You can get them to be the correct size using a suitable washer.. but then take care when quartering them.

 

Baz

I used to use that approach, but it invariably took too long to get a chassis running as wall as I wanted.  So I bought a George Watts wheel press and found it very good.

 

The wheels on this LNWR Class C were fitted with the GW press. The loco is driven on the rear axle, uses LRM horn blocks on the front three axles, aligned with taper end axle jigs. After fitting the wheels it ran perfectly first time.

 

 

 

[Chuffer Davies]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

 

Hi Frank,

 

Thanks for this further clarification. Appreciated.

 

I always prefer to articulate rods on shared crankpins rather than by making a hinged joint. Usually works every time with no problem but not with this particular loco for some reason. I'll have to persevere.

 

Regards,

 

Jeff

The decision as to how/where the coupling rods are hinged is typically determined by the kit designer rather than the builder.  Where I have designed the kit myself I have chosen to reproduce the hinge away from the crankpin so that the crank pin baring surface is uninterrupted rather than divided across two halves of the coupling rod - just a personal preference but I don’t think there is any mechanical benefit one way or the other.

Frank

[Chas Levin]

8 hours ago, Chamby said:

Did one of them have short, fat, hairy legs?

 

"I'm placing all the right despatch notes, but not necessarily with the right orders..."

[Tony Wright]

Jamieson kits.

 

Part of my modelling 'growing up'.

 

A selection; some will definitely have been seen before, but not in this kit context..................

 

What a complete Jamieson (hand-cut) kit looks like; in this case, for the Ivatt 4MT 2-6-0. 

 

Nineteen shillings and nine pence for a set of stamped-out valve gear! Plus, three shillings purchase tax!

 

 

I built my first Jamieson V2 kit over 40 years ago, giving it later to a friend. My friend was happy, but I wasn't, thinking  could do better. So, I did, making 60821 a year later. 

 

 

Still going strong, having done miles on Fordley Park, Leighford, Stoke Summit, Charwelton and now Little Bytham.

 

And, 40 years later, I built two more.........

 

Under construction, with a temporary Hornby tender (I built the metal one later).

 

 

When complete, Geoff Haynes painted her.

 

 

 

Just in time for her to haul the Scotch Goods during the LNER '38 weekend in 2018.

 

 

She now runs on Grantham, my having sold her to a friend. 

 

At much the same time..........

 

 

 

I built another Jamieson V2.

 

'Battleship' frames, anyone? No bearings; no need!

 

 

 

Which Ian Rathbone painted. 

 

 

I built a Jamieson B1 over 40 years ago. A bit basic, but still going strong.

 

 

And, 48 years ago, I built my Jamieson hand-cut A2/1, painting it myself. 

 

 

Years ago, I also built a Jamieson J39. 

 

 

And sold one more-recently on behalf of a bereaved family after the builder had died.

 

 

I also sold this Jamieson Stanier Mogul on behalf of Brian Lee's widow.

 

 

Two more ancient Jamieson kits.

 

I've forgotten where these came from or where they went.  

 

 

Another Jamieson sale on behalf of a bereaved family. 

 

 

I can't recall who brought this Jamieson J6 along. 

 

Finally, another shot of.............

 

 

My 'resurrection' of that battered hand-cut A2/1.

 

I showed a similar view to this a few days ago, but this is more in context; the context of a layout, and how I wish any locos I make to be observed; in service, working hard but not at the closest of quarters.

 

Any more Jamieson kit-builds out there? 

 

 

Edited February 6 by Tony Wright
to add something

[Kirby Uncoupler]

I've done some digging about "MW5 Motors", it seems MW Models was started by Geoff Wright (no connection with our Tony here), son of Maxwell Wright, and his brother David after WW2, suppling engineering parts to Edward Alan Morris Electrical Supplies Of Reading, later name changed to Electrical And Mechanical Engineering Supplies. EAMES stopped selling Meccano to concentrate on model railways, MW Models then opened in Henley-On-Thames specializing in Meccano, no doubt maintaining the trading relationship with EAMES on larger scale model railways, perhaps Eames had an investment in MW Models? 

     So maybe it was MW Models who later bought in the  Airfix motors, perhaps to use on Meccano, and supplied EAMES with them for use in loco kits, but then why did we have stacks of the white and blue empty boxes for re-packing at King's Cross? All very confusing!

      It could be that MW Models was named in memory of their father Maxwell, so it could have been the Maxwell Wright 5-pole motor (made by Airfix as the 1001)? Geoff Wright had a long and productive life, dying last year at the age of 93.

 

https://www.henleystandard.co.uk/news/henley-on-thames/180009/geoff-wright-july-28-1930-april-12-2023.html

 

BK