RMweb Premium St Enodoc Posted December 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2019 22 minutes ago, Clive Mortimore said: Hi St E Not having worked in Scotland, what is the "battery end"? It's what we in the model railway world usually call a "buffer stop". 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Clive Mortimore Posted December 22, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 22, 2019 1 minute ago, St Enodoc said: It's what we in the model railway world usually call a "buffer stop". I am now even more confused, but that's life. Why call a buffer stop, the battery end? One of those mysteries I will have to carry to my grave. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micknich2003 Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 Makes sense, "To Batter etc" possibly divered from the military term etc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 22, 2019 Share Posted December 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, t-b-g said: It all depends what you want from the hobby. I always say that P4 modellers are usually people who want to test themselves and their skills and gain satisfaction from that, rather than people who want an "easy fix" solution to getting a layout up and running as quickly as possible with the least amount of work. I do model in EM, which I see as a middle ground between P4 and OO. I don't use RTR and build everything but as you say, it is more forgiving and in those terms of difficulty, it is nearer OO just with the wheels further apart. There are a few clearance issues around slide bars and splashers but the levels of accuracy you need to work to are more OO than P4. If you don't need dozens of locos and hundreds of carriages, it doesn't matter in the slightest if it takes you months to build one whereas somebody like Tony W knocks them up in an afternoon. If you both end up with all you need, then you have both achieved your different objectives. I know some fine P4 modellers who can produce stunning looking and reliable running models but none of them would claim that it is quick and easy. There are loco projects on my bench that have been in progress for years. I do a bit from time to time but there is no deadline and as far as I am concerned, I do a bit when I am in the mood. If I am building a kit and come across a part that is not quite right and will show to somebody who knows the prototype reasonably well, I will stop and put it in the "thinking about it" pile while I decide if the fault is worth correcting and if so, what is the best way to do it. Sometimes, like with my 4mm Valour, I find faults that I know others may never notice but if I know they are there, I still feel the need to put them right! It means that my loco builds can be very slow but as long as I get there in the end and enjoy the finished model, the speed of construction matters not one jot to me. As you rightly say, I have chosen P4 very much as a challenge, and certainly not as a judgement on anyone else. I have huge admiration for many layouts in both EM and 00 and the modellers of these are people I very much look up to and learn from. I also think that building a true and smoothly running loco in any gauge is a considerable skill, even if it is less longwinded in some than others. TW makes the process look easy, but then I would expect nothing less from a professional. What I have found is that compensating or CSB springing a loco, whilst certainly taking longer, seems to me to require very similar skills to getting a rigid chassis to run true, just with a longer sequence of stages .... but for a beginner in P4 what it does do is allow you to build something which actually has a chance of running reasonably reliably on your beginner track work. Without it, I suspect that P4 would be far less achievable and far more frustrating. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 10 hours ago, Tony Wright said: I'm sure for P4 a more-sophisticated system for making frames is required, but for OO and EM, flexible chassis, in my experience, are of no necessity. Providing the track is laid properly, of course. 8 hours ago, t-b-g said: I do model in EM, which I see as a middle ground between P4 and OO. I don't use RTR and build everything but as you say, it is more forgiving and in those terms of difficulty, it is nearer OO just with the wheels further apart. There are a few clearance issues around slide bars and splashers but the levels of accuracy you need to work to are more OO than P4. I have modelled in OO, P4 and EM in that order. I have tried to take the best things out of each from my experience. A flexible (compensated or sprung) chassis is always preferable for me because although it takes a little longer, you can rest in the knowledge that all wheels are picking up - important for me as a jack of all trades and master of none as my track work isn't always the best. The biggest problem I have in EM is with clearances and it is usually that that takes the extra time. Incidentally, it's often as difficult in EM as it is in P4 due to the wider wheel standards. 1 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gr.king Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 A few of my OO locos (including a 4-4-0, a 4-4-2 and and 0-6-0T) that I felt would otherwise have limited scope for electrical pick up are fully compensated and I think it gives a good result. One of the advantages of much-maligned OO that I rarely see mentioned is the (cosmetically undesirable) extra tread width that the wheels can have. This helps to prevent wheel-drop into shallow-angle crossing gaps, although there is of course still a limit. I watched a very nice EM (EMF?) layout a few months ago and thought it a pity that I noticed every wagon in a long coal train "nod" as it traversed the crossing gaps at the points. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Popular Post The Fatadder Posted December 23, 2019 RMweb Gold Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2019 In the spirit of sharing what you’ve built in 2019 (although not a lot of if is finished…) A Malcolm Mitchell kit for a Manor, this includes the first rolled boiler that I have built and my second Belpair firebox. The kit came as a set of body etches (via eBay) from Malcom himself (who kindly sorted my out a set of most of the castings from his spares. A modified Comet chassis* and a PDK chimney completed it, before I sprayed the model into post war GWR livery along with a Hornby Churchward 3500gl tender (resprayed to match). The chassis was a bit of a pain as the Comet product was of course designed for mounting to a thick plastic footplate, using the Mitchell frame overlays as a guide I was able to rebuild it to fit. There is one glaring omission in that I forgot to add the handrails, it was a job I was putting off (given I hate forming the curved end handrail) so I skipped the step and carried on with the build. When it was “finished” I then rushed it into the paint shop and forgot all about the missing handrails. They now need to be glued in position….. The photo was taken before refitting the crank pin nuts. *Whatever the correct railway terminology, to me the base structure of a vehicle is its chassis (made up of its frames and various other bits attached to it) The next complete loco (a GWR Bird) was sourced second hand in a sorry condition with the aim of reusing its boiler on a Bachmann Dukedog to make a Bulldog. Upon stripping off the bizarre hybrid paintjob (G W R logos with hand painted red frames), it uncovered a very well put together (but rather basic) scratch built model of a Great Western Bird. There were a fair few repairs needed where the frames had become damaged in transit, so they needed soldering back into place. The body needed work to round off the front of the firebox (a lot more difficult when its soldered into position!) Along with soldering on the beading to the cabside cutouts / cab rear handrails and fitting of castings for the mud doors / boiler washout plugs and the application of a number of Archer’s river transfers, before respraying into GWR green. It was certainly very satisfying taking this old model and giving it a new lease of life, and hopefully many more years of running ahead of it. While getting ready to paint the Bird, my Mitchell 73xx was dug out of its box. This was another eBay rescue (already built) and needed the crude paint stripping off, some minor soldering repairs, new handrails and a new coat of paint. It has a badly built P4 chassis which is being rebuilt into OO this year. The body has now been sprayed GWR green, transfers applied and just needs its new chassis to enter service. I am determined to get it running before the Dapol RTR example hits the shelves. The body does need one more bit of work (it is missing cab side number plates and outside steam pipes. Another “complete” loco without a chassis is a Finney 2251, again a second hand kit from eBay that was missing its chassis. The body has been assembled (containing my first Belpaire firebox and my second attempt at rolling a boiler). This has been finished as one of the early wartime built locos 2213, with no cab side windows. It has been sprayed into GWR green with shirtbutton logo (working from a photo of 2211 in Russell) using a resprayed Bachmann 3500gl Collett tender. Once 7316’s chassis is built, 2213 is next in the list using a modified High Level chassis clad in the Finney frame overlays. A “quick” conversion was to redo my already renumbered Hornby 38xx as one of the class converted to oil burning 4855, making use of a 3d printed oil tank (available on Shapeways from an RMWeb member) along with various bits from the scrap box to convert the loco’s cab. A nice easy conversion which results in something a bit different. Away from the locos I have finished a handful of coaches, lining out into Great crest Western chocolate and cream, my favourite of which is this BSL kit for a J12 sleeper (fitted to 247 Development 6 wheel bogies). It is however still sat on a shelf in the workshop awaiting fitting with couplings. Thanks for all the help and inspiration in 2019, hopefully 2020 will see a lot more output. I now only have 2 unfinished loco kits (my part built A4 and a Cotswold 54xx) So I think I will need to buy a couple more next year! More importantly will be getting those which I have “finished” to run reliably. 17 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Long John Silver Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 Although I model in OO, I did build a few compensated chassis, frames, underpinnings, whatever people want to call them in the mid 90s. They were all Perseverance and went under r-t-r bodies. Two were simple 0-6-0s which were not too difficult another was an outside cylinder 2-6-2 which was "a little more challenging." The third one only took one Saturday to get running. I still have the two 0-6-0s, a grossly over engineered Hornby Jinty and a a Mainline Dean Goods. The only advantage I found for compensation on OO track was haulage capacity. I rebuilt a second Dean Goods with a non compensated Perseverance chassis for comparison and it was far less powerful than the compensated one - until they were both weighted. Then the difference was negligible. A couple of years later I built a South Eastern Finecast Pannier with rigid frames which ran more smoothly then any of the compensated locos and i haven't used compensation since. Overall I found installing compensation a little more complicated, it gave marginally better haulage power but no other real advantage. I should say too that I always found the Perseverance chassis kits well thought out, apart from their 4 piece GWR Crosshead arrangement, and their instructions plus, Ian Rice's Chassis Building Book made life relatively straightforward. So I largely agree with Tony as far as compensation in OO is concerned, but P4 is certainly a different kettle of fish altogether, not that I possess the skills or temperament to model to such fine standards. I would like to wish Tony and all the contributors to this thread all best wishes for Christmas and the New Year. The thread is always interesting, and informative. I'm unable to provide photos at the moment, but thanks to inspiration from this thread, I also seem to have managed to solder whitemetal successfully and my Finecast Large Prairie is now taking shape - no sticky hands and dried up epoxy. Jon 3 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 23, 2019 Author Share Posted December 23, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Clem said: I have modelled in OO, P4 and EM in that order. I have tried to take the best things out of each from my experience. A flexible (compensated or sprung) chassis is always preferable for me because although it takes a little longer, you can rest in the knowledge that all wheels are picking up - important for me as a jack of all trades and master of none as my track work isn't always the best. The biggest problem I have in EM is with clearances and it is usually that that takes the extra time. Incidentally, it's often as difficult in EM as it is in P4 due to the wider wheel standards. Good morning Clem, 'I have modelled in OO, P4 and EM in that order.' It's interesting that your modelling progress is in that line. Most who follow that path, I would suggest, transpose the middle and last gauges. Why did you 'abandon' P4? I've only built locos/stock in OO (the vast majority), EM (a few) and O (again, a few). The finest 4mm Gauge sets too high a standard for my range of skills. 'it's often as difficult in EM as it is in P4 due to the wider wheel standards.' Very interesting you should say that. At the Spalding Show, I was asked to put the valve gear back on an EM Gauge V2 built by the late Colin Scoffin (one of the great EM pioneers and mentor to the even greater, late Roy Jackson). The only way Colin had been able to achieve the clearances between the front crankpins and the back of the crossheads was to fit the little end of the connecting rods OUTSIDE the crossheads! I built two chassis for Retford's locos for Roy; one was an A2/2, and the only way I got the necessary working clearance was by plugging the cylinders, and re-drilling the holes for the piston rods 1mm outwards, setting the crossheads further out accordingly. The subterfuge was invisible, unlike the rod being on the outside. Thompson Pacifics have very tight clearances in OO as well. The discussions about rigid and compensated frames have been mentioned on here many times, and I can only reiterate my own findings/observations. Granted, I don't build in P4 (which the great Mike Sharman did - he had the requisite skills), so I can only comment on the chassis I've built in OO, EM and O. Loco chassis that is, I've never compensated rolling stock. I've built about six/seven compensated sets of frames in OO - from a 4-4-0, 0-6-0 to a Pacific. Not one, despite taking at least four times as long to erect as a rigid equivalent has shown the slightest improvement over the rigid ones. No better haulage, no better pick-up; in fact, the opposite! They've all wobbled and waddled far more than my rigid ones. I accept, it could be my in-built prejudice, but these are my findings. The greatest aid to adhesion is weight - plenty of it! I've stuck to rigid in EM and O. Roy Jackson once built two A3s (did they appear in the MRJ?). One was rigid, the other compensated. He told me that there might have been the slightest benefit from the compensated one, but that was debatable. Certainly not enough to offset the vastly-increased time needed to build it. Having seen (and photographed) both Malcolm Crawley's and Tony Gee's EM locos run under exhibition conditions and at their respective homes, I can tell you that Tony's run better than most of Malcolm's. Much better! I never ever believed the 'It'll run-in in time, and that tight spot will go' statement from the great man. It never will, or would, Malcolm. I suppose, I'm really interested in results. My wants/needs are quite specific - as is illustrated in Little Bytham. I do have very good trackwork, laid on baseboards built by a master carpenter. It's in OO, so is far more tolerant than the most-accurate 4mm gauge. I wish it were in EM, but the cul-de-sac is far too long now! I only allow smooth, powerful, quiet and consistently-good running (as you've seen, and, I hope, other visitors will testify to). Stuttering, jerking and derailments are not tolerated, and many of the trains have to run fast - very fast! All of this is achieved through great-rigidity. Regards, Tony. Edited December 23, 2019 by Tony Wright to clarify a point 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
APOLLO Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 (edited) This is an interesting film - what craftsmen they were back then !! - We can't design a flying tin box properly these days !! (real railway that is). Interesting to read about all the models built, frames chassis etc. Locos are not for me I'm afraid. This year I've made / modified several O scale freight cars, a couple from old craftsman wooden kits and I'm pleased with those. At the moment I'm experimenting with a plank type layout utilising lightweight plastic fascia boarding and lightweight bathroom tile foam board. The "baseboard" (foamboard) will be reversible and have OO track on one side and O on the other (for my Dapol 08). It will sit within the plastic fascia board and on quickly erected & dismantled clip on legs and stand in font of the main loft layout. Scenery will be minimal and buildings etc will be lift off . I'm new to British O gauge and intend to make some O wagons from kits also. As it's experimental I'll describe & illustrate it in the new year (if all goes well). It's coming along well, but work stopped now till the New Year. (by higher authority !!) Anyway, to all Wright writers, Tony & Mo, have a merry Christmas and a happy New Year. Brit15 Edited December 23, 2019 by APOLLO typo 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted December 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2019 Looking back I have managed to undertake a variety of tasks... from wagon and coach building to sound fitting and loco weathering this year although holdiays and cricket umpiring has reduced my modelling time. Shap needed a particular vehicle in one of the freight trains used in the sequence. Step forward a very old Maj ex L&Y long wheelbase van. Notice the "inside out" planking.. this has since been weathered and is in one of the Shap freights. I kit bashed a Palvan Shock - it isn't correct but I couldn't see and obvious place where BR shortened the body.. (I have now got a dimensioned sketch so another be will be built) weathered to match a photograph of one of these.. why the clean section? An ex LMS 12 wheel dining car.. and a bit of commissioned sound fitting/weathering A Bachmann 4MT which had been rewheeled to EM Gauge, sound chip fitted and speaker in the loco body, stay alive in the tender then weathered to match a photograph supplied by teh loco owner Pete Rigby. And next year? Already started a number of projects , more coaches, more locos and a lot more wetahering. Have a great Festive Season! baz . 14 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Paul Cram Posted December 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2019 I started modelliong in P4 over 40 years ago because it looked better. Fortunatley back then there weren't people telling me it was too difficult in fact it was easier to get a compensated wagon to run with all the wheels on the track than it was a rigid wheelbase one. From there I just developed my skills in respect of loco frames. I don't think I am aprticularly skilled modelle but given care and patiece have manage to cobble some kits together. The last loco I finished ran beautifully first time. Nothing to do with my skills but as a result of a well designed compensation system. 26 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post CF MRC Posted December 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2019 Quite a varied year for me: Dereliction near Gasworks Tunnel The not-so-round Midland Roundhouse in KX Goods Yard A new ‘week end’ chassis for Denys Brownlee’s N2 And of course Valour, which has occupied most of the last nine months. Tim 18 21 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Jol Wilkinson Posted December 23, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2019 (edited) Whichever 4mm format we choose doesn't matter and we shouldn't deride those that take a different route. We should be aiming to create the model(s) that give us the most enjoyment. I can't see the point of buying highly detailed and increasingly accurate RTR models and running them on layouts with tight radius curve, Peco Insulfrog points that just look "wrong", no signals, etc. but seemingly many others enjoy doing that. So for me, P4 with it's challenges and sense of achievement, is what gives me satisfaction even though I haven't been able to build a model of my local childhood railway station. But then I don't know of anyone that has built a model of Rugby Midland. Like Paul, I took up modelling in P4 many years ago. I had had a break from railway modelling in 00, when I often had great problems building locos that ran well. I had also become rather disillusioned with the white metal LNWR and MR kits I had been building but hadn't had much success with several early etched kits either (MPD and the likes). When I started again after several years, I was fortunate to meet several modellers using P4 (including John Redrup of LRM, then working in Puffers at Kenton). Through their guidance and support and by using for the first time a consistent set of standards for which assembly jigs and gauges were available, I found I could build models that worked better than I had ever achieved before. Yes it takes more time to build and paint locos and carriages, as well as the time required to built the track, signals, etc. However I find the challenge worthwhile and while I have only 13 locos, 31 carriages and about 45 wagons completed, building those has been is enough to to keep me happy (although I have more in partly built or in kit form on the shelves). It would have helped of course if I hadn't spent quite a lot of time designing etched kits, building test etches and display models, etc. over the years for a particular kit supplier. 2019 has been rather unproductive with two unfinished locos, three carriages (shown below) and one more wagon still to be finished but I did complete the etch design (also shown below) for another LNWR carriage (and am currently working on the etched underframe for a six wheel LNWR brake van, despite trying to retire from doing that sort of thing!). Jol Edited December 23, 2019 by Jol Wilkinson Photo edit 23 2 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lecorbusier Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 10 minutes ago, Jol Wilkinson said: When I started again after several years, I was fortunate to meet several modellers using P4 (including John Redrup of LRM, then working in Puffers at Kenton). Through their guidance and support and by using for the first time a consistent set of standards for which assembly jigs and gauges were available, I found I could build models that worked better than I had ever achieved before. Yes it takes more time to build and paint locos and carriages, as well as the time required to build the track, signals, etc. However I find the challenge worthwhile ..... That in a nutshell is what I am in the process of experiencing .... though pretty much at the start Fantastic fun! 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 23, 2019 Author Share Posted December 23, 2019 4 hours ago, Barry O said: Looking back I have managed to undertake a variety of tasks... from wagon and coach building to sound fitting and loco weathering this year although holdiays and cricket umpiring has reduced my modelling time. Shap needed a particular vehicle in one of the freight trains used in the sequence. Step forward a very old Maj ex L&Y long wheelbase van. Notice the "inside out" planking.. this has since been weathered and is in one of the Shap freights. I kit bashed a Palvan Shock - it isn't correct but I couldn't see and obvious place where BR shortened the body.. (I have now got a dimensioned sketch so another be will be built) weathered to match a photograph of one of these.. why the clean section? An ex LMS 12 wheel dining car.. and a bit of commissioned sound fitting/weathering A Bachmann 4MT which had been rewheeled to EM Gauge, sound chip fitted and speaker in the loco body, stay alive in the tender then weathered to match a photograph supplied by teh loco owner Pete Rigby. And next year? Already started a number of projects , more coaches, more locos and a lot more wetahering. Have a great Festive Season! baz . Nice stuff, Baz, Thanks for showing us. One question - would a van with brakes only on one side still be running in the '50s (the MAJ one)? The reason I ask is I have one. Regards, Tony. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Barry O Posted December 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2019 Hi Tony according to the photograph ( about 1955 I believe) yes it was... Baz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clem Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Clem, 'I have modelled in OO, P4 and EM in that order.' It's interesting that your modelling progress is in that line. Most who follow that path, I would suggest, transpose the middle and last gauges. Why did you 'abandon' P4? I've only built locos/stock in OO (the vast majority), EM (a few) and O (again, a few). The finest 4mm Gauge sets too high a standard for my range of skills. 'it's often as difficult in EM as it is in P4 due to the wider wheel standards.' Very interesting you should say that. At the Spalding Show, I was asked to put the valve gear back on an EM Gauge V2 built by the late Colin Scoffin (one of the great EM pioneers and mentor to the even greater, late Roy Jackson). The only way Colin had been able to achieve the clearances between the front crankpins and the back of the crossheads was to fit the little end of the connecting rods OUTSIDE the crossheads! I built two chassis for Retford's locos for Roy; one was an A2/2, and the only way I got the necessary working clearance was by plugging the cylinders, and re-drilling the holes for the piston rods 1mm outwards, setting the crossheads further out accordingly. The subterfuge was invisible, unlike the rod being on the outside. Thompson Pacifics have very tight clearances in OO as well. The discussions about rigid and compensated frames have been mentioned on here many times, and I can only reiterate my own findings/observations. Granted, I don't build in P4 (which the great Mike Sharman did - he had the requisite skills), so I can only comment on the chassis I've built in OO, EM and O. Loco chassis that is, I've never compensated rolling stock. I've built about six/seven compensated sets of frames in OO - from a 4-4-0, 0-6-0 to a Pacific. Not one, despite taking at least four times as long to erect as a rigid equivalent has shown the slightest improvement over the rigid ones. No better haulage, no better pick-up; in fact, the opposite! They've all wobbled and waddled far more than my rigid ones. I accept, it could be my in-built prejudice, but these are my findings. The greatest aid to adhesion is weight - plenty of it! I've stuck to rigid in EM and O. Roy Jackson once built two A3s (did they appear in the MRJ?). One was rigid, the other compensated. He told me that there might have been the slightest benefit from the compensated one, but that was debatable. Certainly not enough to offset the vastly-increased time needed to build it. Having seen (and photographed) both Malcolm Crawley's and Tony Gee's EM locos run under exhibition conditions and at their respective homes, I can tell you that Tony's run better than most of Malcolm's. Much better! I never ever believed the 'It'll run-in in time, and that tight spot will go' statement from the great man. It never will, or would, Malcolm. I suppose, I'm really interested in results. My wants/needs are quite specific - as is illustrated in Little Bytham. I do have very good trackwork, laid on baseboards built by a master carpenter. It's in OO, so is far more tolerant than the most-accurate 4mm gauge. I wish it were in EM, but the cul-de-sac is far too long now! I only allow smooth, powerful, quiet and consistently-good running (as you've seen, and, I hope, other visitors will testify to). Stuttering, jerking and derailments are not tolerated, and many of the trains have to run fast - very fast! All of this is achieved through great-rigidity. Regards, Tony. Hi Tony. I think it's a complicated topic. People choose what standards/gauge they use according to their final aims for a model. To address your first question, I always wanted a layout that could emulate a busy main line with the opportunity to shunt/back wagons into sidings. I built firstly in OO but was definitely 'wowed' by the look of P4 so, towards the end of the 1980s, in the loft of my first house in Ipswich I started a scaled down version of Awsworth Junction in P4. I certainly managed to get a number of locos working well pulling trains over the track work without derailments but no matter how I tried, I couldn't back a coal train across a single slip and into sidings without wagons derailing. I did work at it for some time, but without ever solving the problem. However, about the year 2000 I saw a layout by Andy Cooper (Spotland, I think) and loved how it came close to that P4 look which had initially attracted me to P4 but, with deeper flanges, offered an operational solution. I realised that there may be a good compromise to be made which could give me both better running but on that wider gauge. I tested it out and haven't looked back or changed my mind. Yes P4 still has the edge for looks but, for a larger layout, I think EM is the best solution. Now, I have to say most of the locomotives I use on my layout are inside cylinder or have inside valve gear. But I have successfully converted RTR chassis including a WD, B1, K3 and L1s, and built chassis for a K2 and B1. The valve gear clearance problem often leads to an awful lot of fiddling about, but so far I have managed to solve all problems without taking any major drastic action. But for instance, the Little Engines O4/8 required completely new slide bars to give enough clearance. On the subject of flexible versus rigid, I have two locos with rigid chassis. A J39/1 and the O4/8. They aren't my best runners although the O4/8 has been improved greatly with additional tender pick-ups. I find flexible chassis are more forgiving - they can actually run well even if slightly out of square. But - the key thing is - they are adjustable. For me, often the time consuming element of chassis building is the decision making of whether to go compensated or sprung and the following design to bring it to fruition. But that's another topic. I think the only reasonable conclusion from this discussion is to say 'each to their own' and if people find a method that suits them, by all means stick to it. You are a professional loco builder and so have very different factors coming in to play and I can see why, for sheer consistency, the rigid method works best for you and what is apparent is just how sweet your locomotives run. Finally, my trains prototypically don't need to run fast - certainly not over scale speed of 50mph, but they do need to be able to haul prototypical loads round curves that are tight for OO and probably too tight for EM (governed by width of layout room). 6 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted December 23, 2019 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 23, 2019 7 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Good morning Clem, 'I have modelled in OO, P4 and EM in that order.' It's interesting that your modelling progress is in that line. Most who follow that path, I would suggest, transpose the middle and last gauges. Why did you 'abandon' P4? I've only built locos/stock in OO (the vast majority), EM (a few) and O (again, a few). The finest 4mm Gauge sets too high a standard for my range of skills. 'it's often as difficult in EM as it is in P4 due to the wider wheel standards.' Very interesting you should say that. At the Spalding Show, I was asked to put the valve gear back on an EM Gauge V2 built by the late Colin Scoffin (one of the great EM pioneers and mentor to the even greater, late Roy Jackson). The only way Colin had been able to achieve the clearances between the front crankpins and the back of the crossheads was to fit the little end of the connecting rods OUTSIDE the crossheads! I built two chassis for Retford's locos for Roy; one was an A2/2, and the only way I got the necessary working clearance was by plugging the cylinders, and re-drilling the holes for the piston rods 1mm outwards, setting the crossheads further out accordingly. The subterfuge was invisible, unlike the rod being on the outside. Thompson Pacifics have very tight clearances in OO as well. The discussions about rigid and compensated frames have been mentioned on here many times, and I can only reiterate my own findings/observations. Granted, I don't build in P4 (which the great Mike Sharman did - he had the requisite skills), so I can only comment on the chassis I've built in OO, EM and O. Loco chassis that is, I've never compensated rolling stock. I've built about six/seven compensated sets of frames in OO - from a 4-4-0, 0-6-0 to a Pacific. Not one, despite taking at least four times as long to erect as a rigid equivalent has shown the slightest improvement over the rigid ones. No better haulage, no better pick-up; in fact, the opposite! They've all wobbled and waddled far more than my rigid ones. I accept, it could be my in-built prejudice, but these are my findings. The greatest aid to adhesion is weight - plenty of it! I've stuck to rigid in EM and O. Roy Jackson once built two A3s (did they appear in the MRJ?). One was rigid, the other compensated. He told me that there might have been the slightest benefit from the compensated one, but that was debatable. Certainly not enough to offset the vastly-increased time needed to build it. Having seen (and photographed) both Malcolm Crawley's and Tony Gee's EM locos run under exhibition conditions and at their respective homes, I can tell you that Tony's run better than most of Malcolm's. Much better! I never ever believed the 'It'll run-in in time, and that tight spot will go' statement from the great man. It never will, or would, Malcolm. I suppose, I'm really interested in results. My wants/needs are quite specific - as is illustrated in Little Bytham. I do have very good trackwork, laid on baseboards built by a master carpenter. It's in OO, so is far more tolerant than the most-accurate 4mm gauge. I wish it were in EM, but the cul-de-sac is far too long now! I only allow smooth, powerful, quiet and consistently-good running (as you've seen, and, I hope, other visitors will testify to). Stuttering, jerking and derailments are not tolerated, and many of the trains have to run fast - very fast! All of this is achieved through great-rigidity. Regards, Tony. Thanks for the kind words regarding the running of my locos. I tend to keep mine well hidden until any problems have been fettled and sorted. Malcolm tended to have two different types of loco. There were the ones for running on layouts and the ones for his showcase. If he could get something to lurch up and down the test track and it was a showcase model which didn't fit into any of our layout scenarios, then that was it, the poor thing got put away and any running problems got put away with it. Then there would be a running day on Retford and he would say "I will take the XYZ and give it a run, it will do it good". I would suggest that if he wanted to do that, a private visit with no others there might be better but trying to tell Malcolm that he had made a mistake was pretty much impossible. As far as I know, he never admitted to being wrong about anything! His big problem was that he had so much self confidence that he would assemble the frames, wheels, coupling rods, pick ups and any valve gear then check it for free running and tight spots. If there was one, as there often was, finding it was a nightmare. I have never been that brave and check over and over again at each stage of construction. So the showcase locos with the poor running would come out on a running day on Retford, stagger round, fail and get put away again. At the time, neither of us had a layout set up permanently at home for proper testing purposes, so he would take it home, tinker with it and take it to the next running day, where the sequence would be repeated! It was a shame as when he did take the trouble to fettle the running, the results were superb. The stud of locos on Thompson's End and the ones we ran on Tickhill and my other layouts couldn't be bettered. One of his last locos, a scratchbuilt P1 with working inside motion, was like a sewing machine and would pull anything put behind it at a lovely slow crawl. Roy did build two A3s together. One rigid and one sprung with home made individual adjustable wire springs. The article was written as part of the "Locomotives of Dunwich" series for MRJ but never appeared for various reasons, which I won't go into here! It was to be called "The strange tale of the Flying Scotsman and the Gay Crusader" or suchlike. The rigid one ran superbly first time and would haul any train on the layout. The identical DJH kit with sprung wheels needed much added weight and fiddling about with getting the weight distribution just right before it would pull a full length train but when it was weighted, it was ever so slightly quieter and smoother through pointwork. The conclusion was that the springing wasn't worth the extra effort especially if you wanted dozens of locos! 3 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbishop Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Tony Wright said: Nice stuff, Baz, Thanks for showing us. One question - would a van with brakes only on one side still be running in the '50s (the MAJ one)? The reason I ask is I have one. Regards, Tony. Tony, yes. Most pre grouping company wagons were built with brakes on one side. They had to have levers on both sides and they had to face to the right. This meant a clutch system such as Morton or lift link. Of course, by 1960 anno domini would have caught up with the majority of pre grouping wagons. Bill 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Wright Posted December 23, 2019 Author Share Posted December 23, 2019 35 minutes ago, t-b-g said: Thanks for the kind words regarding the running of my locos. I tend to keep mine well hidden until any problems have been fettled and sorted. Malcolm tended to have two different types of loco. There were the ones for running on layouts and the ones for his showcase. If he could get something to lurch up and down the test track and it was a showcase model which didn't fit into any of our layout scenarios, then that was it, the poor thing got put away and any running problems got put away with it. Then there would be a running day on Retford and he would say "I will take the XYZ and give it a run, it will do it good". I would suggest that if he wanted to do that, a private visit with no others there might be better but trying to tell Malcolm that he had made a mistake was pretty much impossible. As far as I know, he never admitted to being wrong about anything! His big problem was that he had so much self confidence that he would assemble the frames, wheels, coupling rods, pick ups and any valve gear then check it for free running and tight spots. If there was one, as there often was, finding it was a nightmare. I have never been that brave and check over and over again at each stage of construction. So the showcase locos with the poor running would come out on a running day on Retford, stagger round, fail and get put away again. At the time, neither of us had a layout set up permanently at home for proper testing purposes, so he would take it home, tinker with it and take it to the next running day, where the sequence would be repeated! It was a shame as when he did take the trouble to fettle the running, the results were superb. The stud of locos on Thompson's End and the ones we ran on Tickhill and my other layouts couldn't be bettered. One of his last locos, a scratchbuilt P1 with working inside motion, was like a sewing machine and would pull anything put behind it at a lovely slow crawl. Roy did build two A3s together. One rigid and one sprung with home made individual adjustable wire springs. The article was written as part of the "Locomotives of Dunwich" series for MRJ but never appeared for various reasons, which I won't go into here! It was to be called "The strange tale of the Flying Scotsman and the Gay Crusader" or suchlike. The rigid one ran superbly first time and would haul any train on the layout. The identical DJH kit with sprung wheels needed much added weight and fiddling about with getting the weight distribution just right before it would pull a full length train but when it was weighted, it was ever so slightly quieter and smoother through pointwork. The conclusion was that the springing wasn't worth the extra effort especially if you wanted dozens of locos! Thanks Tony, 'I have never been that brave and check over and over again at each stage of construction.' I'd change 'brave' to 'daft' in your statement above! What's the saying? 'You can always tell a Yorkshireman, but you can't tell him much!'. As the son of one, I know. Regards, Tony. 2 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beechnut Posted December 23, 2019 Share Posted December 23, 2019 I don’t usually enter modelling debates but I’ll make an exception for the subject of compensation. As far as I know there isn’t a standard method of compensation. The nearest to standard would be the ‘three legged stool’ system with a single central beam on the leading two axles (0-6-0) which works ok as long as the movement is restricted. A common error is to allow too much up and down movement, 0.5mm either way should be plenty. I prefer twin beams which also incorporate the bearing surfaces and use the etched holes intended for the bearings as movement restrictors. I don’t have any strong feelings about the whys and wherefores of other methods other than the above works for me, and more importantly suits my lazy approach as it’s quick and easy. Brendan 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted December 23, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2019 (edited) As promised, a selection of some of the layouts I've photographed this year............... Some have just been grabbed at shows, others are repeat visits. Ambleside in OO. Arnside in OO. Aviemore in N. Bridgefield Quarry in O. Bridgwater in O. Broad Gauge 7mm Scale. A concrete works in 7mm. Durham Street in O. Feniton in OO. Grantham in OO. Grindley Brook in O. Ivybridge in 2mm FS. A beginner's layout in OO. Melangoose in OO. More to follow...................... Edited December 23, 2019 by Tony Wright typo error 23 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted December 23, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2019 More.................. North Foreland in O. Retford in EM. Sandy Bay in N. Shap in OO. More to come...................... 23 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tony Wright Posted December 23, 2019 Author Popular Post Share Posted December 23, 2019 And the last. For now....................... Tollesbury Quay in O. Trowbridge in OO. United Mills in P4. And finally, of course, my own Little Bytham in OO. May I please thank all those modellers who've very kindly allowed me to take pictures of their wonderful creations this year? What a good life? Retired, yet still able to build models, write articles and take pictures. What a great hobby! 34 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now