Wright writes.....

[polybear]

 

........ then left - wearing a pair of shorts that may once have been khaki.....

 

 

 

That'll be the follow-thru'.....

[Focalplane]

Just to show that the hobby is not entirely made up of pensioners, like me.

 

 

74XX 04.jpg

 

Tome Foster (who's still under 30!) brought this Bachmann modification along with him on Sunday. With guys of this modelling calibre around, the hobby's future is bright, but we need more of them!

I have been following Tom's blog for some time and there are several modelers like him who are focussed on the Mid Wales area.

 

Here is the link:

 

https://tfmodelling.wordpress.com

 

I had no idea he was so young, though.  He has managed to capture the period he models with such precision that is actually  better than the memory of one who spent a lot of time in the area back then!

[coachmann]

What will happen will happen and the hobby might be rosy or might be doomed. Discussion simply makes people feel better, but attractive models and inspiration are a good bet for bringing more people into the hobby. What I find odd is this: Now that RTR has reached the stage where it is the best we have ever seen, we have chosen to fear for the future of the hobby! Modellers really wanted what we have today and did their best with kits.  We no longer have to rely on kits, just as the Ford Escort driver no longer has to make do with three forward gears, 27 mpg and no heater when today's computer managed Ford Focus equivalent gives him six gears, 70 mpg, air-con, power steering and a dash that talks back! 

Edited July 21, 2015 by coachmann

[Tony Wright]

What will happen will happen and the hobby might be rosy or might be doomed. Discussion simply makes people feel better, but attractive models and inspiration are a good bet for bringing more people into the hobby. What I find odd is this: Now that RTR has reached the stage where it is the best we have ever seen, we have chosen to fear for the future of the hobby! Modellers really wanted what we have today and did their best with kits.  We no longer have to rely on kits, just as the Ford Escort driver no longer has to make do with three forward gears, 27 mpg and no heater when today's computer managed Ford Focus equivalent gives him six gears, 70 mpg, air-con, power steering and a dash that talks back! 

Maybe fear for the future of the hobby is misplaced; perhaps it was ever thus. What cannot be denied, however, is the greater average age of the participants than was the case a few years ago. I think the weekend event at Watford was a reasonable 'demographic' of the participating club members. Though hardly 'scientific', on looking around I saw only one guy under 20, perhaps one or two in their 30s, but by far the majority of the about 200+ attendees were of pensionable age or approaching it. 

One can, with some justification, say 'does it matter?' Folk are supposed to be living longer (though at too many funerals I've attended in the last few years, with one exception, the deceased hadn't made the biblical allocation) and the 'grey pound' is powerful. 

And, as has been said so many times, the RTR standards are now exceptional and in most cases superior to kit-built equivalents. As an example, I'm just writing the review for BRM of Hornby's latest all-steel Pullmans. These are staggeringly good - far superior than my efforts down the years (despite Ian Rathbone's painting) of using Hornby 'Railroad' donors, MJT bogies and additions, and Comet overlays. I might question the cream colour (though that's subjective), but for less than £50.00 each one can have something superior to a professionally-built/painted equivalent. The cost of the separate bits might be close to that, and then there's the painting, so who's going to bother? I suppose the only caveat might be that how many sales will there be now for donor cars, MJT components and Pullman transfers? And, inferior though my 'Queen of Scots' rake might be, I did make it myself (with Ian's painting) and I've had it for 20 odd years. But, such is progress, and a pre-War QoS Hornby rake will now set you back something slightly less than £400.00. Mine's a ten-car post-War set, and I've insured it for over £2,500. Professional modellers can hardly compete! 

[coachmann]

Hi Tony,

 

Many years ago I attended the exhibition at Manchester's Corn Exchange and later on the University, but my most vivid memories were in the 1970's when I was in my early 30's and was the young 'coming-up' generation. The people I mixed with were much older and if I trotted out their names a few would read like a who's-who or the hobby at that time. So to be honest I didn't notice any young lads (there were plenty of children with their parents etc). I wouldn't be surprised if today's teenagers and 20-somethings were just like we were at that age with more interesting distractions.  Hobbies are something we come back to once we are settled by sneaking a trainset in the stocking for little Ronnie....."He'll enjoy it Ethel..."  

Edited July 21, 2015 by coachmann

[Tony Wright]

Hi Tony,

 

Many years ago I attended the exhibition at Manchester's Corn Exchange and later on the University, but my most vivid memories were in the 1970's when I was in my early 30's and was the young 'coming-up' generation. The people I mixed with were much older and if I trotted out their names a few would read like a who's-who or the hobby at that time. So to be honest I didn't notice any young lads (there were plenty of children with their parents etc). I wouldn't be surprised if today's teenagers and 20-somethings were just like we were at that age with more interesting distractions.  Hobbies are something we come back to once we are settled by sneaking a trainset in the stocking for little Ronnie....."He'll enjoy it Ethel..."  

Thanks Larry. 

 

I'm sure you're right, but what hobby have folk to come back to if they never had it in the first place? The number of younger modellers today is minute compared to the 'trainset' generation of the '50s and '60s. The same generation which is driving the hobby today. 

[Focalplane]

Surely the universal caveat "Not suitable for children under 14 years" on every RTR box these days is a good reason for younger enthusiasts not being around.  In my experience any such label immediately puts off parents raised on the health and safety diet.  And by the time most children are 14 their hormones have probably shifted gears toward, well, more exciting prospects!

 

But there is hope.  My own children were never interested in model railways, but at least one of their children does seem to have caught the bug.  So the message to our senior members might be to focus on their grandchildren.

[Andy Reichert]

Surely the universal caveat "Not suitable for children under 14 years" on every RTR box these days is a good reason for younger enthusiasts not being around.  In my experience any such label immediately puts off parents raised on the health and safety diet.  And by the time most children are 14 their hormones have probably shifted gears toward, well, more exciting prospects!

 

But there is hope.  My own children were never interested in model railways, but at least one of their children does seem to have caught the bug.  So the message to our senior members might be to focus on their grandchildren.

 

So "Have more Grandchildren" is the way to go then?

 

Andy. 

[Tony Wright]

Future or not, let's make the most of what's around now.

 

 

Twenty and more years ago I produced a QoS Pullman set and wrote an article about it in BRM. How long it took me to do the eight-car (later ten) modifications, I cannot say, but it was certainly a substantial amount. I've just 'completed' the above car this evening, turning (I hope) what was a pre-War condition all-steel Hornby car into a post-War one. Obviously, it was made easier by having a First Class car and not having to alter its full 'Third Class Car No. ..' identity. I've painted on the curtains to the inside of the windows (though I've seen some pictures of First Class cars with blue curtains, most seem to be lighter, with a pattern on them - still they match my earlier cars) and painted the lower section of the inside of the kitchen window white (this seems to have happened in a few cases post-War). I also fitted my couplings, added concertina gangways, weathered the underframes and painted the roof matt grey with weathering streaks. And, that's it. Who'd be a rolling stock modeller these days? 

[davidw]

That looks superb. Didn't the post 1960 version have a slightly different crest?

[St Enodoc]

So "Have more Grandchildren" is the way to go then?

 

Andy. 

Definitely! My youngest granddaughter is two and loves her Thomas Wooden Trains. All four of my grandchildren have become conditioned (like Pavlov's dogs) so that when they know I am coming to visit they all demand to be taken to the Bluebell Railway. Unfortunately, as they are 10,000 miles away from where I live such occasions are few and far between.

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect that 'railway modelling' (or playing with toy trains or various other variants on the theme) might be becoming like a number of other hobbies.  What we see is primarily an audience of 'more mature' folk because that might be what we are looking for, in fact at many shows I've attend there seems to be  wider age range but not so many in their teenage years.  Coach is right about 'distractions' when we were of a certain age - no doubt I could and should have spent far more time chasing the end of mainline steam in France and Germany but I was otherwise distracted.  Later, in the early years of marriage there was limited space in the house and no spare money anyway - then children came along to deliver even more distraction.

 

Apart from the highly committed youngsters in our hobby and the great work they are doing the real bulge seems to come with those who have greater disposable income because they might be mortgage free or because they aren't having to give quite so much financial support to their offspring.  The situation is very similar, and even more pronounced, in some of the more specialised collecting hobbies where the market seems to be even more preponderantly 'of an age' but the interesting thing is that numbers don't seem to decline - for the simple reason (national economic woes apart) that there are always people who are getting older and seeking ways of spending their time and money.

 

Great to encourage youngsters into the hobby and perhaps odd to think that many of them are more familiar with some sort of steam railway than any other kind but equally returnees and those venturing into new territory are also important although they might not necessarily be around for as long as the youngsters.

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I regret that I haven't ( and won't be) read all 212 pages of this thread, but the future health of the hobby is of great interest to me.

 

I regret that all I see around me leads me to believe that the hobby will gradually shrink and products will gradually disappear as there will be no customers to buy them.

 

I am not saying that the hobby will disappear entirely but that it will shrink and shrink and shrink.#

 

My reasons .....

 

1. Optimists make great play of the fact that there are talented youngsters in our hobby - of course there are. But numerically they are insignificant compared with the situation in the 1960'/70's.

 

2. Our hobby has been bolstered in the main by returnees - GREAT!  But to be a returnee implies that you were in the hobby as a child/teenager. As the number of children in the hobby started to die off in the 1980's onwards  there will gradually be less and less returnees as the years go by.

 

My view (I think shared by Tony) is make the best of it! It's great NOW because there are loads of guys out there with relatively speaking loads of money to spend on their hobby.

 

Optimist or pessimist? Who is right?  I hope I'm wrong, but let's agree to meet in a pub in 20 years time and see who was right then ..............

 

that is if any of us are still alive?

Edited July 22, 2015 by TEAMYAKIMA

[teaky]

Future or not, let's make the most of what's around now.

 

Hornby latest Pullmans modified.jpg

 

Twenty and more years ago I produced a QoS Pullman set and wrote an article about it in BRM. How long it took me to do the eight-car (later ten) modifications, I cannot say, but it was certainly a substantial amount. I've just 'completed' the above car this evening, turning (I hope) what was a pre-War condition all-steel Hornby car into a post-War one. Obviously, it was made easier by having a First Class car and not having to alter its full 'Third Class Car No. ..' identity. I've painted on the curtains to the inside of the windows (though I've seen some pictures of First Class cars with blue curtains, most seem to be lighter, with a pattern on them - still they match my earlier cars) and painted the lower section of the inside of the kitchen window white (this seems to have happened in a few cases post-War). I also fitted my couplings, added concertina gangways, weathered the underframes and painted the roof matt grey with weathering streaks. And, that's it. Who'd be a rolling stock modeller these days? 

 

That looks good Tony.  You'll be pleased to know that a picture in Antony Ford's Pullman Profile No. 3 shows Lorraine in 1967 with the kitchen window painted as you have done (actually it doesn't look as neatly painted).

 

 

That looks superb. Didn't the post 1960 version have a slightly different crest?

 

Correct Dave.  It received the revised (stretched) version of crest.  However, by 1961 it was allocated to the Southern Region.  So Tony's version looks correct for late 50s Eastern region.

[Bernard Lamb]

Ford (and most of the others) have been using water based paint for at least 5-6 years now.

 

Cheers,

Mick

It's been a lot longer than that.

Certainly goes back to the 1980s.

A little anecdote from British Leyland at Oxford back then.

They installed a water based dipping tank to paint mini bodies.

On the first trial the body came off the supporting hooks, floated away and began to sink.

They had not allowed enough openings in the body for the paint to flow through quickly enough.

This story was told to me by a Rep from the firm who supplied us with paint.

The description of the top brass of BL using long poles to try and rescue the body and prevent it damaging the pumps on the bottom of the tank creates a picture in my head that I will always remember.

Bernard

[Bernard Lamb]

 Baking enamel is funny stuff....Is it still used today? All gas cookers were stove enamelled at one time.

It is still used on steel bike frames. I would imagine that any one with a suitable plant has other customers as steel bike frames these days is hardly a high volume business. One side effect was that the colour could vary with the temperature, higher temperature usually resulting in a darker colour. A lot of stuff these days is powder coated. The powder is sprayed onto the product and then melted into an even covering by stoving. We always used the term stoving rather than baking. It can then get complicated with finishes that use two or more coats of an epoxy powder where extra durability is needed.

Bernard

[polybear]

......when today's computer managed Ford Focus equivalent gives him six gears, 70 mpg, air-con, power steering and a dash that talks back! 

Try fixin' the ###### when it goes wrong though......

Edited July 22, 2015 by polybear

[coachmann]

Try fixin' the ###### when it goes wrong though......

I pay experts to do that. Did removing engines, bedding in valves, fitting water pumps, altering timing, pushing grease on 30-odd grease nipples in the days when lying on ones back under a car was routine. Todays cars are white man's magic - thank goodness!

Edited July 22, 2015 by coachmann

[gr.king]

I'm way off the main topic here but with mention of powder coating above, it is perhaps relevant for me to mention my experiences with powder coated steel wheels for cars. Lovely looking and easy to maintain PROVIDING that there is no breach in the coating and no residual rust hiding in awkward corners under the coating, where blasting does NOT get it all out. Once rust gets under the coating it reveals the inability of the powder coating to prevent rampant spread of the stuff. Worryingly, the outer surface can still look sound at a glance when the situation beneath is becoming dire. I think there's no substitute for good quality primer and good quality top-coat paint of the kind that really annoys the environmentalists. Thick zinc electroplating or thick hot galvanising are all the better.

Edited July 23, 2015 by gr.king

[Bernard Lamb]

I'm way off the main topic here but with mention of powder coating above, it is perhaps relevant for me to mention my experiences with powder coated steel wheels for cars. Lovely looking and easy to maintain PROVIDING that there is no breach in the coating and no residual rust hiding in awkward corners under the coating, where blasting does NOT get it all out. Once rust gets under the coating it reveals the inability of the powder coating to prevent rampant spread of the stuff. Worryingly, the outer surface can still look sound at a glance when the situation beneath is becoming dire. I think there's no substitute for good quality primer and good quality top-coat paint of the kind that really annoys the environmentalists. Thick zinc electroplating or thick hot galvanising are all the better.

I know exactly what you mean, but it should not happen. Steel should be degreased and treated prior to painting. You are fortunate that you have not yet come across examples of powder coating where you can pull off the coating in a continuous sheet. Steel, in an ideal world, needs treating with zinc, or at least iron, phosphate prior to painting. Most steel sheet that is zinc coated these days has the zinc applied at the time of rolling rather than being treated at a later stage.

20-30 years ago this was not that reliable a process and the zinc could lift off.  I think it must have been Volvo who started using it first in the motor industry. As you say hot dip galvanizing is far superior. Even better is to use the product for half it's life and then to paint it. Worst, from a specification aspect, paining job I was involved in? A fish processing plant in Bangladesh.

Bernard

[lee74clarke]

I'm way off the main topic here but with mention of powder coating above, it is perhaps relevant for me to mention my experiences with powder coated steel wheels for cars. Lovely looking and easy to maintain PROVIDING that there is no breach in the coating and no residual rust hiding in awkward corners under the coating, where blasting does NOT get it all out. Once rust gets under the coating it reveals the inability of the powder coating to prevent rampant spread of the stuff. Worryingly, the outer surface can still look sound at a glance when the situation beneath is becoming dire. I think there's no substitute for good quality primer and good quality top-coat paint of the kind that really annoys the environmentalists. Thick zinc electroplating or thick hot galvanising are all the better.

Hi Graeme

I hope you are well? I would agree with you on powder coating, we use the process on some machines at work.

If the preparation work is done correctly, it's a great coating, but if not, it can be dreadful.

We had a machine less than a year old, where the finish lifted off 50mm steel section in slabs. Most embarrassing.

In an ideal world, and one where the 'bottom line' is not scrutinised to the last penny (!), the correct way is degrease, shot blast (to give a good key) clean, then powder coat.

A lot of the big 4 Japanese motorcycle manufacturers powder coat the main spars of their chassis.

It is as tough as anything.

As for the A2 to A2/3 conversions I purchased from you, let's leave that one until winter!

Best Regards

Lee

[DougN]

All this talk of paint sounds like work. I have that many Architects that request hot dipped galvanised and then powder coated handrails and external walk way columns in schools. (currently I am building apartment blocks) it usually took a while to convince the client that to do this is a maintenance nightmare. The columns get swung around by the kids and it abrades the powdercoating which is almost impossible to repaint to look OK. The handrails were the ones that really got me, when you explained that both men and women wear rings and they scratch the surface..... usually at this point the client turned around and followed the advise... leave the columns in galvanised finish and move to stainless hand rails.... usually a more expensive option but no maintenance generally. 

 

Any how the short amount of time Tony spent on the coach has really repaid dividends. It calls for the statement we have never had it so good! Tony what is your thoughts on a RTR Hornby A3 or A4 in front of a rake of these Pullmans... No doubt your insurance may drop to about 600 to 700 rather than the 2500 just for the coaches and that is brand new!

 

I still find the interest in the demographic interesting as I think the younger years modellers are there in small numbers. Though the new incoming modellers are generally in their 50's.

 

I have watched this with interest at the young age of 41.... there is a number that pass away each year to be replaced slowly by people coming in. BRMA is a microcosm of what is happening. The overall numbers are pretty stationary which proves the point!

[Tony Wright]

All this talk of paint sounds like work. I have that many Architects that request hot dipped galvanised and then powder coated handrails and external walk way columns in schools. (currently I am building apartment blocks) it usually took a while to convince the client that to do this is a maintenance nightmare. The columns get swung around by the kids and it abrades the powdercoating which is almost impossible to repaint to look OK. The handrails were the ones that really got me, when you explained that both men and women wear rings and they scratch the surface..... usually at this point the client turned around and followed the advise... leave the columns in galvanised finish and move to stainless hand rails.... usually a more expensive option but no maintenance generally. 

 

Any how the short amount of time Tony spent on the coach has really repaid dividends. It calls for the statement we have never had it so good! Tony what is your thoughts on a RTR Hornby A3 or A4 in front of a rake of these Pullmans... No doubt your insurance may drop to about 600 to 700 rather than the 2500 just for the coaches and that is brand new!

 

I still find the interest in the demographic interesting as I think the younger years modellers are there in small numbers. Though the new incoming modellers are generally in their 50's.

 

I have watched this with interest at the young age of 41.... there is a number that pass away each year to be replaced slowly by people coming in. BRMA is a microcosm of what is happening. The overall numbers are pretty stationary which proves the point!

Doug,

 

I'm sure that a Hornby A1, A3 or A4 will look absolutely splendid on a rake of these cars, provided the loco is in pre-War condition (or, perhaps, just post-War). Looking through numerous pictures, it's mainly Ivatt Atlantics on the QoS pre-War south of Leeds (because of the restrictions on the route between Doncaster and Leeds, prior to bridge strengthening, which precluded the Pacifics), so Locomotion's latest is ideal, as is Bachmann's D11. North of Leeds, NER Atlantics held sway, and in Scotland Reid Atlantics (prior to the Pacifics), so kit-building is necessary there!

So, the next question is, are Hornby currently producing suitable Pacifics? I think the reason the new Pullman cars (never call them coaches or carriages) have been offered in pre-War condition is because sales will probably be less than in pre-War guise. When (if) they do become available post-'1948, then there's a greater market (one would assume), and an even greater range of RTR locos to pull them - Hornby's Gresley Pacifics, Bachmann's Peppercorn Pacifics, Bachmann's EE Type 4, Bachmann's V2 (rarer), then on to Deltics (using Hornby's Parlour Brake Thirds), Brush 4s, LION, FALCON, EE Type 3s and Brush Type 2s (again, using Hornby's cars as brakes), then rebuilt Merchant Navies and original and rebuilt WCs and BBs when the cars were cascaded to the SR. Any others?   

[kingfisher24]

Tony

 

i am currently working on a mk1 maroon rake to represent one of the three hour Aberdeen expresses (62-66) I have almost completed the rake using a mostly mixture of repainted and revamped kitmaster mk1's and a bachamann 57' full break. The one coach i am looking to do to complete the rake is a scottish region griddle car.

 

Now i have looked through various web pages and all the suppliers that i can think of and i cannot find anybody who does even the sides for the griddle car.

 

Would you be able to give me any pointers/suggestions regarding the griddle cars.

 

gary

[davidw]

Kingfisher: Southern pride do two different diagrams I think you need diagram 30 Griddle car. Alternately you can use an RMB Bachmann or an RB mainline/replica, evidence tends to suggest these were also used. Apologies for jumping in.....

Edited July 25, 2015 by davidw