Wright writes.....

[coachmann]

Some papers are too detailed and not as subtle as they could be.

[Focalplane]

Well, I have built a few Scalescenes projects including the north light engine shed and they work well for me, though my cardboard cutting is probably too hasty to provide for "near perfection". Compared to off the shelf cardboard kits the design of the Scalescene construction is more conducive to good corner joins, etc. But what you see is what you get, meaning that it is not easy to deviate from the plans to actually model what was really there on the prototype.

 

Pointed brickwork in 1:76 scale is essentially flat. It's the embossed nature of plastic kits that makes us think otherwise.

[raymw]

Mass produced brick-papers will be suitable for the masses, and be accepted by many. Over the past few months I've been writing software to do what I want, and I can replicate most types of brickwork, in any scale. There is a difference between something true to scale, as compared to photos of the real, and printed bricks, compared to what looks right on the model. It is just a matter of opinion. I can set various parameters, which allows bricks to be laid in a manner you would never see in practice.
 
I have found, by observation, that generally the mortar width, or colour has to be emphasised, else it just looks like colour wash from a normal viewing distance, and to keep the proportions right often that will mean bigger bricks, (or smaller if you want to count the courses). The subtle patterns do not repeat, and if i could be bothered to spend the time and money fixing my printer, then it would be easy for me to print sheets 40 foot long or so. This negates the join lines and pattern repeats you get in the commercial products.
 
This thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62843-my-name-is-bond-english-bond/page-2  seemed to finish when I posted the last image. The centre square is a copy of the 'postoffice brickwork'  The surrounding area was a rendition from my software (a minutes work, two minutes would have got it the same - I messed to much with the mortar values), and the next shows a different bond, the outer another bond, but without the blue bricks in the colour mix.

 

Colour is subjective, few folk have a colour calibrated monitor or printer, so in order to generate that image I printed out the samples on an A4 colour laser (cmyk)  and scanned them in, to get a level playing field, so to speak.

 

One day, I might actually get around to making up a building, or retaining wall, or something, but my knowing that I can do it, means that actually I do not need to do it ( a bit like using 'Google Earth' instead of going on holiday ...)

 

Best wishes,

Ray

Edited July 14, 2015 by raymw

[Clive Mortimore]

Hi Ray

 

In the past I have just used MSPaint, it works for me. Below is part of an industrial building I had as my backscene for Hanging Hill.

 

[sp1]

Isn't it sometimes the case that some features are sometimes exaggerated, or otherwise, because that's what the eye expects to see, rather that what is true to scale?

One example is trees - a scale model of a mature tree would be enormous compared to what we are used to looking at on a model. Another example takes me back to my aero modelling days - a scale model radio control spitfire is notoriously difficult to fly, but it's what a lot of beginners want. Increase the size of the control surfaces and things become a lot easier.

Isn't that the case with brickwork - we often look at the detail close up, and standing next to real walls we expect to see (or our eyes/ brain does) a small groove, even though in reality this would be virtually non existent in scale terms.

Another term from aeromodelling - 'cartoon scale' ie certain features are exaggerated to give the desired effect... 'Forced' perspective anyone.....?

Edited July 16, 2015 by sp1

[glo41f]

The Howard Scenics papers do the job in my humble opinion. They have just the right colouration and, as has been already pinted out, the motar lines are not that prominent. It is difficult to get plastic type moulded brickwork sheets to look as good though not impossible. The pictures posted of the terraces look the business to me. In the case of LB we are looking at a landscape in the round so to speak and not focusing upon the individual detail of the components. It is a broad brush typ scenario which is where is is masterful.

 

What an amazing thread this is as we cover so many interesting things!

 

Martin Long

[Tony Wright]

I've just started writing the review of Hornby's latest Pullman cars for BRM - many, many thanks to Modellers Mecca for lending me the models, since Hornby no longer sends out press samples. 

 

I've noticed on another thread a discussion with regard to the colours, so the following shot might be of interest.

 

 

From bottom to top we have one of Hornby's latest all-steel cars, then an earlier type Hornby car, then an ex-Railroad Hornby all-steel car (with MJT bogies, etc) and then a Comet conversion of a Railroad car, painted for me by Ian Rathbone. None of the colours is exactly the same, particularly the cream. There's definitely no absolute uniformity amongst Hornby's colours, which strikes me as a trifle odd. Ian's colours are from the standard proprietary ranges. If you factor in Bachmann's Mk. 1 rendition, then which is right? 

 

I've been sent a Parlour Third, Kitchen Third and Kitchen First of the latest cars, and these are definitely in mid-1930s condition. That is the later style livery with umber above the windows, no curtains, 'Crayonne' plastic shades rather than the earlier fabric type, the kitchen window clear (a minefield) and the whole description of 'Car No. Third Class'. For BR days (early '50s onward), there would have to be curtains at the windows and just 'Car No.', and probably a white kitchen window. 

 

They look outstanding - in the same class as Golden Age's at less than a sixth the price and far more detailed than any of my Comet conversions (though I've been running those for over 20 years). 

 

 

Finally, may I ask assistance, please? I've been asked to comment on this rather shabby picture for a publisher. There are no dates nor details supplied. The number on the Compo is 44581. Am I right in thinking that these are articulated conversions by Gresley of previous GNR six-wheeled stock? My records suggest there were two, three and four sets made up to run on Fox bogies. Looking at the trussing, it appears to be a two-set, so a Brake Third/Compo or Third/Compo. Any ideas, please?

 

Many thanks. 

[jwealleans]

According to the Great Northern Railway Society Archive Volume 02A, Articulated Howlden Six & Eight Wheeled Coaching Stock, page 2A.3.1, Twin Composite set 458 (GNR set 2693), carriages 4581 and 4582, converted July 1910 from two D164C 37'6" Luggage Composites, LNER Code 4082, withdrawn Feb 1948.

The book shows the LNER numbers as 44571/2, which I take for a typo, as all these sets just had the '4' prefix for GN area carriages added, so should be 44581 and 44582.

The 6 wheelers, built 1893 had been in ECJS stock (Diagram EC1) and were then returned to the GN.

Edited July 16, 2015 by jwealleans

[chris p bacon]

According to the Great Northern Railway Society Archive Volume 02A, Articulated Howlden Six & Eight Wheeled Coaching Stock, page 2A.3.1, Twin Composite set 458 (GNR set 2693), carriages 4581 and 4582, converted July 1910 from two D164C 37'6" Luggage Composites, LNER Code 4082, withdrawn Feb 1948.

 

The book shows the LNER numbers as 44571/2, which I take for a typo, as all these sets just had the '4' prefix for GN area carriages added, so should be 44581 and 44582.

 

The 6 wheelers, built 1893 had been in ECJS stock (Diagram EC1) and were then returned to the GN.

There's always someone who beats you to it 

[DaveF]

I never like using old colour slides as colour references, but I think these two suggest that there could be a difference in shade between Pullman Cars in a train.  They were both taken by Dad.

 

Both were taken on Agfa film (CT18 for those old enough to remember).  To my eye there is a slight difference in shade between the old Pullman Cars and the Mark1 based cars in the same image. 

 

 

Corby Glen EE Type 3 up Master Cutler/Sheffield Pulllman April 61 J043

 

 

Harrogate Class 47 D1563 The White Rose Harrogate to Kings X May 65 J186

 

 

David

Edited July 16, 2015 by DaveF

[davidw]

I've just dug out a copy of the Eastern in Colour - The cover has an A1  hauling a Pullman. The first 3 cars are pre mk1's pullmans I can't tell if they are 1928/25 cars I'd plug that the brake is one of the kitchen to brake rebuilds. The colours like the pictures above do indicate a difference but unfortunately it's not as marked as the Bachmann/ Hornby interpretation of the livery. 

 

Never mind.

[Tony Wright]

I never like using old colour slides as colour references, but I think these two suggest that there could be a difference in shade between Pullman Cars in a train.  They were both taken by Dad.

 

Both were taken on Agfa film (CT18 for those old enough to remember).  To my eye there is a slight difference in shade between the old Pullman Cars and the Mark1 based cars in the same image. 

 

 

Corby Glen EE Type 3 up Yorkshire Pullman April 61 J043.jpg

Corby Glen EE Type 3 up Yorkshire Pullman April 61 J043

 

 

l Harrogate Class 47 D1563 The White Rose Harrogate to Kings X May 65 J186.jpg

Harrogate Class 47 D1563 The White Rose Harrogate to Kings X May 65 J186

 

 

David

Many thanks David,

 

May I suggest, though, that the EE type 3 is on the 'Master Cutler'/'Sheffield Pullman', rather than the 'Yorkshire Pullman'? The four-character headcode and the consist suggest that.

The presence of a Mk.1 BG means that one of the Pullman Parlour Brake Thirds (by now Seconds) was unavailable, so baggage space has to be provided. The full complement of Pullman seats were then provided by an extra Pullman car, in this case the extra 1928 Kitchen First (with the kitchen locked off?). The usual consist was (northbound) Second Brake, Second Kitchen, First Parlour, First Kitchen, First kitchen, Second Brake, which, apart from the extra Kitchen First, this is what the train is.  

Edited July 16, 2015 by Tony Wright

[DaveF]

Many thanks David,

 

May I suggest, though, that the EE type 3 is on the 'Master Cutler'/'Sheffield Pullman', rather than the 'Yorkshire Pullman'? The four-character headcode and the consist suggest that. 

 

Many thanks Tony, I just took the caption from Dad's notes without checking it.

 

David.

[Tony Wright]

I've just dug out a copy of the Eastern in Colour - The cover has an A1  hauling a Pullman. The first 3 cars are pre mk1's pullmans I can't tell if they are 1928/25 cars I'd plug that the brake is one of the kitchen to brake rebuilds. The colours like the pictures above do indicate a difference but unfortunately it's not as marked as the Bachmann/ Hornby interpretation of the livery. 

 

Never mind.

David,

 

I can't find my copy right now, but I know the publication. As far as I recall, the leading brake is as you surmise. The quickest way to tell a 1928 all-steel Parlour Brake Third is if it's got guard's duckets. 

[asmay2002]

I never like using old colour slides as colour references, but I think these two suggest that there could be a difference in shade between Pullman Cars in a train.  They were both taken by Dad.

 

Both were taken on Agfa film (CT18 for those old enough to remember).  To my eye there is a slight difference in shade between the old Pullman Cars and the Mark1 based cars in the same image. 

 

David

 

Yellowing of varnish on the older coaches followed by re-varnishing rather than full repaint may well explain it.

[corneliuslundie]

I have been looking at brickwork and comparing with Tony's photo. The deepest mortar joints (other than where the mortar is failing) seem to be about half an inch which is 1/6 mm or about 7 thou, but these often have the mortar raked, so that the full depth is only at the bottom of the gap. However, in bright sunlight this can create quite a noticeable shadow. I haven't measured the depth of the indentations on the plastic brick sheets I have but it is far more than this, probably double. So perhaps thick paint run in the grooves could make them about the correct depth.. I can't see most people actually replicating the profile of he mortar pointing.

 

On the other hand in Tony's photo the pointing is pretty well flush, maybe half a thou in 4mm/ft at most, so brick paper would be appropriate and in fact any indentation with a tool would be too prominent.

 

I have a feeling that mortar style depends partly on the type of brick, though may also have regional variation as well as according to the current fashion at the time.

 

A useful and authoritative reference with lots of photos is Brunskill's "Brick building in England".

[robertcwp]

Many thanks David,

 

May I suggest, though, that the EE type 3 is on the 'Master Cutler'/'Sheffield Pullman', rather than the 'Yorkshire Pullman'?

1B21 was the up 'Sheffield Pullman' - officially untitled but usually referred to as such.  The up Master Cutler was 1B20 and seems to have been pretty consistent in carrying the headboard:

 

37_Cutler_SEP-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[chris p bacon]

I have a feeling that mortar style depends partly on the type of brick, though may also have regional variation as well as according to the current fashion at the time.

That is the general rule but occasionally it will be a design choice.

 

If the brick is clean with crisp edges it can have a struck (like a chamfer) pointing or raked (as it says the mortar is raked out to a depth of 1/4 -3/16 inch), Rough cast bricks generally have tooled or bagged joints ( Essentially you rub the joint with a cement bag).

[polybear]

Oil based paint (in particular white) is well known for changing colour over time.  Not sure about the effect on "colours", but white goes yellowish with time - it's worse where the finish receives less daylight.  That's why white woodwork around the house goes yellow with time.  I have cupboard doors painted white from new (i.e. not overcoating a previous finish) on both sides at the same time, using the same paint out of the same tin. Over time, the daylight side of the door appears much whiter than the "dark" side of the door.   I believe water-based paints are not prone to this (they're just cr*p to use and chip if you look at them too hard).  I have a shiny white twenty quid pre-painted B&Q panel door (sprayed using w/b paint presumably) that is as white as the day it was purchased, whereas the surrounding door frame (oil paint) is yellow....

 

However, on new model railway stock you'd hope for consistent colours irrespective of manufacturer

Though I've seen it said many times that painters of the 1:1 railway stock used to mix their own paints from colour cards, so there's plenty of scope for variation there.  Especially after a heavy night/lunchtime down at the Railway Arms....

 

polybear

[unclebobkt]

       Oil based paint (in particular white) is well known for changing colour over time.  Not sure about the effect on "colours", but white goes yellowish with time - it's worse where the finish receives less daylight.  That's why white woodwork around the house goes yellow with time.  I have cupboard doors painted white from new (i.e. not overcoating a previous finish) on both sides at the same time, using the same paint out of the same tin. Over time, the daylight side of the door appears much whiter than the "dark" side of the door.   I believe water-based paints are not prone to this (they're just cr*p to use and chip if you look at them too hard).  I have a shiny white twenty quid pre-painted B&Q panel door (sprayed using w/b paint presumably) that is as white as the day it was purchased, whereas the surrounding door frame (oil paint) is yellow....

  .... .

 

 

       It's amazing the snippets that one dredges-up from one's memory after a suitable nudge has been given.

  Pre-war our principal house was in Hampstead, and I can remember being told by my mother that the reason that she had the kitchen repainted in pale yellow, rather than in the more traditional white,  was that white changed colour to yellow over time, and that some parts would change colour more quickly than others.

 

     

Edited July 17, 2015 by unclebobkt

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I never like using old colour slides as colour references, but I think these two suggest that there could be a difference in shade between Pullman Cars in a train...

No photographic image can be treated as an absolute reference, but when  there is a consistent difference in colour values between the two vehicle types in the same shot, (and there are a goodly quantity of such pictures) then the range of possibilities go from:

 

The paint shades of the two vehicle types could be identical in shade to human vision, but between ambient lighting, paint and the photographic emulsion they are rendered differently in the photograph:

 

The paint shades of the two vehicle types differ to human vision, and the photographic image represents this.

 

 

 

There were comments at the time the Met-Camm cars came into service that the colour of the new Pullmans didn't match the earlier cars. The earlier cars were a warmer tone, both the umber and the cream. On this basis my opinion is that the many photos which show this effect are a decent representation of what was perceived.

 

Irony time: Hornby's representation on the earlier cars, and Bachmann's on the Met-Camm cars, appears to reverse the actual situation, in that the Hornby are colder in tone than the Bachmann. ( I'll live with it, couldn't get anywhere close myself in achieving the finish of these vehicles from both makers.)

[edcayton]

1B21 was the up 'Sheffield Pullman' - officially untitled but usually referred to as such.  The up Master Cutler was 1B20 and seems to have been pretty consistent in carrying the headboard:

 

37_Cutler_SEP-63 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

 

Thank you for that. For those that don't know it is at Welwyn Garden City. My usual train-watching spot was about half a mile North of the station by Lyall's (sp?} Bridge, which can be seen in the distance. I had forgotten just how many Pullman trains there were back then. Is it possible that the next train would be steam hauled as late as this?

 

Ed

[Tony Wright]

Another request, please.

 

Can anyone tell me what finally happened to the 1947 Budd stainless steel carriage SILVER PRINCESS? I know it saw experimental service on the LNER, LMS and the CIE and eventually was allocated to the LMR, repainted in carmine/cream, lost its name and was given the number M7585M. By then it was all-First, rather than its original Compo and was fitted out as a lounge bar. 

I've an idea it ran in a principal LMR train, but can't find my references. Thus, which one, and was it ever painted in full maroon and when was it withdrawn? 

 

Helpers will be given an acknowledgement - many thanks in advance.

[jwealleans]

Found this on the 'Net, Tony, but can't guarantee its accuracy:

 

"December 2007 'Backtrack' has a two-page article on the 'Silver Princess' including the photo of it still with its original body panelling and doors, in crimson and cream. There are also two interior shots, one showing the bar area fitted after its rebuild. A further external shot dated 29/6/56 shows the vehicle in maroon, having been repanelled and lost its middle door.

 The vehicle was tried between King's Cross and Edinburgh then fitted with 5'3" bogies and tried on Irish railways for three months in 1948. It was then stored and later purchased by BR in 1955. BR used it as 'The Ulster Bar' on the Euston-Heysham run. It is suggested that withdrawal took place in June 1966."

  There is also a photo of the vehicle in June 1963 Modern Railways, showing it in maroon and minus the middle door.

 

I'd never heard of this vehicle, so was intrigued by your request.

 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Thank you for that. For those that don't know it is at Welwyn Garden City. My usual train-watching spot was about half a mile North of the station by Lyall's (sp?} Bridge, which can be seen in the distance. I had forgotten just how many Pullman trains there were back then. Is it possible that the next train would be steam hauled as late as this?...

 Officially steam had gone from June 16th 1963, so only a slim possibility of the next train being steam hauled - and a declining one at that - over the following eighteen months.

 

WGC station surrounds look very different now, with the derelict Wedded Shreet factory site and more still in the hands of Spenhill (Tesco's property arm) and no decisions on future development settled. Your spotting location is Lyle's Bridge, an accomodation bridge for the old lane between farms before the town was ever built; now cyclist and pedestrian only, the nearby Knightsfield bridge carrying the road traffic.