Wright writes.....

[t-b-g]

42 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

I thought that I smelled rubicund fish!!

 

CJI.

 

It was a genuine query.

 

I saw the photo, noticed the handrails looked odd and raised it here to see if I was imagining it or if others thought they looked odd too.

 

Part of my make up is to always question things, even if it makes me go against the flow or to challenge what everybody else regards as correct.

 

Perhaps I may have discovered a previously unknown livery variation. Or I could have been fooled by a bit of dodgy scanning or screen technology

 

Either way it was worth raising it.

 

 

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, john new said:

The cynic in me also wonders if they were the last job to finish off a loco and it even depended on how much of the paint in each option they had left without opening new can(s) or having to draw more from stores? 

It could easily be as simple as that, or even the personal preferences of individual painters or foremen; no cynicism required.

 

One of those uncertainties that, at this remove, may always linger just out of reach...

 

John

Edited January 8, 2022 by Dunsignalling

[Jesse Sim]

6 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

I'm not sure about the colour of A3 handrails, other than whenever I've painted a model, or Ian Rathbone or Geoff Haynes has painted one, the handrails are body-colour.

 

What the lovely shot does show is the tops of the splashers were painted green. Geoff and I were puzzling over what colour they should be on the recent Raven A2 he's got for painting now. Green.

I was only thinking that last night, isn’t there a distinctive shade difference between locos shopped at Doncaster or Darlington? 
 

 

[Jesse Sim]

5 hours ago, micklner said:

Tony

 

The splasher tops  in the Sir Hugo photo are Black and unlined ,and the photo is  post war.

 

The Raven A2 splashers were Green and lined in white . After what Jonathan has just typed , you also need a photo to confirm either way for the period of use.

 

2400 Splashers Green lined white with a  Black border. Photo is pre 1928 as Numbers are on the Tender, I would guess just painted into LNER livery 1923/4.

 

 

 

Posted for educational purposes only.

 

See here for a photos of A2 City of Durham with the Gresley tender, halfway down page.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/101015-mikemegs-workbench-building-locos-of-the-north-eastern-lner/page/16/

 

Mick

 

 

 

5 hours ago, Tony Wright said:

Good evening Mick,

 

'The splasher tops  in the Sir Hugo photo are Black and unlined'

 

Are you sure? They look green to me.

 

It's incredible how so many pairs of eyes can interpret so many different things (what a can of worms you've opened, Tony Gee!). 

 

Thanks for posting the shot of the A2 in original LNER condition. If nothing else, it shows Darlington's first LNER style of green-painting (more NER, naturally), where the cab was panel-lined like the tender, unlike later when just the edges were lined. 

 

I think I'll just leave it to Geoff Haynes..............

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

 

They are Defo green. A nice set of young eyes were used, not mine I can’t see 6ft in front of me, my girlfriend, Rachel agreed on them being green. 

[Woodcock29]

18 minutes ago, Jesse Sim said:

 

They are Defo green. A nice set of young eyes were used, not mine I can’t see 6ft in front of me, my girlfriend, Rachel agreed on them being green. 

Its  very deceptive if I was only looking at the rear view I'd certainly agree they are black. The same photo of Sir Hugo is on the front cover of the book LNER Locomotives in colour 1936-1948 and to me in that photo they appear black. However, the front view taken on the same day at Grantham in THE BIG FOUR IN COLOUR 1935-50 shows them to be green. I don't think it's a reflection of the boiler colour. Looking at the front splasher its top is definitely green compared the adjacent curved footplate in that photo.

So what do we conclude? Looking at both photos outside in bright sunshine I'd conclude the colour is green.

Andrew

 

[Atso]

Interesting to read the discussion about Sir Hugo's handrail colours. Personally, I believe that the shadow on the underside of the handrail is causing an illusion which makes some of us believe that it is a different colour from the cab.

 

I think that this could be a real life (though not identical) example of Adelson's chessboard illusion.

 

 

Believe it or not, squares A and B are actually the same colour. However, your brain will probably be disagreeing with this.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Atso

[Chamby]

4 minutes ago, Atso said:

Interesting to read the discussion about Sir Hugo's handrail colours. Personally, I believe that the shadow on the underside of the handrail is causing an illusion which makes some of us believe that it is a different colour from the cab.

 

I think that this could be a real life example of Adelson's chessboard illusion.

 

 

Believe it or not, squares A and B are actually the same colour. However, your brain will probably be disagreeing with this.

 

Oh dear, that cylinder definitely more like Hornby Pea Green than anything coming out of Doncaster or Darlington....  

[3rd Rail Exile]

57 minutes ago, Atso said:

Interesting to read the discussion about Sir Hugo's handrail colours. Personally, I believe that the shadow on the underside of the handrail is causing an illusion which makes some of us believe that it is a different colour from the cab.

 

I think that this could be a real life (though not identical) example of Adelson's chessboard illusion.

 

 

Believe it or not, squares A and B are actually the same colour. However, your brain will probably be disagreeing with this.

 

Incredible!  I've just had to prove this to myself by "snipping" portions of squares A and B and putting them next to each other.   

 

I know I've got dodgy colour vision (the red/green version), but this illustration just tells me not to trust any colours I see!  Or, to put it another way, not to dispute any colour renditions, as they might be absolutely perfect to whoever produced them and I'm just "seeing them differently". 

 

What a minefield!

[Denbridge]

13 hours ago, Jol Wilkinson said:

 I hope they didn't send it through the post. I have received products that should have been sent by courier but eBay traders often done follow the rules or apply common sense. 

No, it was a courier.

[Atso]

19 minutes ago, 3rd Rail Exile said:

 

Incredible!  I've just had to prove this to myself by "snipping" portions of squares A and B and putting them next to each other.   

 

I know I've got dodgy colour vision (the red/green version), but this illustration just tells me not to trust any colours I see!  Or, to put it another way, not to dispute any colour renditions, as they might be absolutely perfect to whoever produced them and I'm just "seeing them differently". 

 

What a minefield!

 

I know this example is used by behavioral scientists as an example of cognitive failings (cognitive bias). As I understand it, you cannot tell they are the same colour because our brain's quick reaction system's logic is programmed to know that they must be different colours (due to the pattern of the board). I came across the subject while trying to manage my mental health and find it fascinating just how often the logic of our brains can make mistakes.

 

It may also explain why we can all sometimes get entrenched in a certain view and no amount of evidence/discussion can dissuade us from it (not that this is ever a problem among railway modellers! ).

Edited January 9, 2022 by Atso

[BMS]

Also In the discussion  we are not looking at the same picture - we are all on different monitors, screens, graphics cards etc.

[sandra]

10 hours ago, Jesse Sim said:

I was only thinking that last night, isn’t there a distinctive shade difference between locos shopped at Doncaster or Darlington? 
 

 

If that accounted for the difference wouldn’t it mean the loco was painted at Doncaster and was then taken to Darlington to have the handrails painted. I somehow doubt it.

[Jesse Sim]

2 minutes ago, sandra said:

If that accounted for the difference wouldn’t it mean the loco was painted at Doncaster and was then taken to Darlington to have the handrails painted. I somehow doubt it.

I meant about the A2, not the A3’s handrails. 
 

I was mid morning coffee and not awake when I typed that haha. 

[LNER4479]

4 hours ago, Atso said:

... Adelson's chessboard illusion.

 

Believe it or not, squares A and B are actually the same colour. However, your brain will probably be disagreeing with this.

It'd be a pretty strange game of chess if those two squares really were the same colour ...

[Jamiel]

Having worked in film and television I have done a lot of work matching shots, and one thing that affects colour maybe more than the colour itself is the camera. Beyond that, the film, camera settings and the time of day (colour of light) which is lighting the subject.
 

I started a thread on this showing examples of models in blue and green shot under different lighting conditions with a DSLR camera.
 

 

 

http://www.jamielochhead.co.uk/jpegs/Trains/Colour12.jpg

 

http://www.jamielochhead.co.uk/jpegs/Trains/Colour11.jpg

 

(the forum has decided that these image links are not valid)

I hope that is of some interest.

Jamie

 

 

 

 

[t-b-g]

I understand all the reasons why things may look the way that they do and that all our eyes are different and that all our screens are different.

 

I have just "snipped" another portion of the image.

 

 

If anybody wants to tell me that the handrail and the cab/tender side sheets are the same colour then I should probably never paint a model ever again as my eyes are not fit for purpose when it comes to colours! We can argue until the cows come home about what the correct shades of green are, or whether they are green, grey or dirty metal coloured, or whether we are all seeing the same thing on our screens but can anybody really say that they look as if they are the same colour as the body sides? Even the sides catching the direct light look different, so it isn't just an issue of shadows.

 

Anyway, if nobody wants to agree with me, that is fine but if I ever build a model of Sir Hugo as it was in August 1946, mine will have dark green handrails! 

[Tony Wright]

The discussions regarding colour (and tone - black/white/grey are not considered colours in an artist's palette) are most-interesting and enlightening. 

 

I'm very fortunate to have many of the locomotives I've built, painted by two top professional in the art, Ian Rathbone and Geoff Haynes. I tend to use Geoff more these days because we 'horse-trade'; I build locos for some of his customers on a sub-contract basis, and he 'pays' me by painting locos/stock. This is a very symbiotic arrangement, and is in no way a comment that I don't use Ian any more.

 

Moving on, what actually is, say, the correct model colour for BR green?

 

These three A4s were painted at different times by Ian........

 

 

The workmanship with regard to the painting/lining is superlative, but the greens are different. This is not a criticism, and I think all three look perfect. It's also probable that not all BR green came from the same tin (or barrel) on the real thing. 

 

Some more of Ian's painting.......

 

 

This time on three post-War Pacifics. Again, all different, yet all wonderfully-painted. 

 

Here are three BR green locos painted by Geoff..............

 

 

The middle A1 is an example of his earlier painting for me, and he's now choosing to use the green shown on the A4 and the nearer A1. Again, differences, yet all superbly-painted. 

 

Four different painters next............

 

 

The nearer A3 is my painting, completed over 40 years ago using Humbrol's BR green applied with a sable. The middle A3 is Geoff's painting. TRIGO has featured of late (builder/painter unknown, except the model was supplied complete by DJH some 40 years ago). As might be recalled, it had the wrong dome, so Geoff matched the painting on a substitute and stuck it on. We believe this is Railmatch's BR green. The A1 and the A4 also show Ian's painting. 

 

How about RTR?

 

 

The much-modified Bachmann A1 was weathered by Ian, Geoff toned-down the Hornby 'Princess Coronation' and Tom Foster weathered the A3; all different, as is the Allen Hamett-painted A3 in the background. 

 

Does anything shown above 'prove' anything? Only that, as long as the colours/tints/shades/hues/tones aren't so wildly different as to make the models appear unrealistic, then variations are perfectly tolerable. As intimated, there must have been variations on the real thing. Weathering, as well (which I insist upon to some degree), also alters a colour's appearance.

 

One must also take into account that all of these are 'layout locos', made to be run (and run hard), not meant to live in a glass case, and, because of that, subject to the odd dent, knock and scrape down the years.

 

I state again, I'm very fortunate to have some many beautifully-painted locos running on Little Bytham. 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 9, 2022 by Tony Wright
typo error

[Chamby]

22 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I understand all the reasons why things may look the way that they do and that all our eyes are different and that all our screens are different.

 

I have just "snipped" another portion of the image.

 

 

If anybody wants to tell me that the handrail and the cab/tender side sheets are the same colour then I should probably never paint a model ever again as my eyes are not fit for purpose when it comes to colours! We can argue until the cows come home about what the correct shades of green are, or whether they are green, grey or dirty metal coloured, or whether we are all seeing the same thing on our screens but can anybody really say that they look as if they are the same colour as the body sides? Even the sides catching the direct light look different, so it isn't just an issue of shadows.

 

Anyway, if nobody wants to agree with me, that is fine but if I ever build a model of Sir Hugo as it was in August 1946, mine will have dark green handrails! 

 

Yes the handrails do look a different shade to the flat sides of the loco and tender... but then compare them to where the panels curve in towards the cab, which will definitely have been painted from the same pot of paint, at the same time.

[t-b-g]

5 minutes ago, Tony Wright said:

The discussions regarding colour (and tone - black/white/grey are not considered colours in an artist's palette) are most-interesting and enlightening. 

 

I'm very fortunate to have many of the locomotives I've built, painted by two top professional in the art, Ian Rathbone and Geoff Haynes. I tend to use Geoff more these days because we 'horse-trade'; I build locos for some of his customers on a sub-contract basis, and he 'pays' me by painting locos/stock. This is a very symbiotic arrangement, and is in no way a comment that I don't use Ian any more.

 

Moving on, what actually is, say, the correct model colour for BR green?

 

These three A4s were painted at different times by Ian........

 

 

The workmanship with regard to the painting/lining is superlative, but the greens are different. This is not a criticism, and I think all three look perfect. It's also probable that not all BR green came from the same tin (or barrel) on the real thing. 

 

Some more of Ian's painting.......

 

 

This time on three post-War Pacifics. Again, all different, yet all wonderfully-painted. 

 

Here are three BR green locos painted by Geoff..............

 

 

The middle A1 is an example of his earlier painting for me, and he's now choosing to use the green shown on the A4 and the nearer A1. Again, differences, yet all superbly-painted. 

 

Four different painters next............

 

 

The nearer A3 is my painting, completed over 40 years ago using Humbrol's BR green applied with a sable. The middle A3 is Geoff's painting. TRIGO has featured of late (builder/painter unknown, except the model was supplied complete by DJH some 40 years ago). As might be recalled, it had the wrong dome, so Geoff matched the painting on a substitute and stuck it on. We believe this is Railmatch's BR green. The A1 and the A4 also show Ian's painting. 

 

How about RTR?

 

 

The much-modified Bachmann A1 was weathered by Ian, Geoff toned-down the Hornby 'Princess Coronation' and Tom Foster weathered the A3; all different, as is the Allen Hamett-painted A3 in the background. 

 

Does anything shown above 'prove' anything? Only that, as long as the colours/tints/shades/hues/tones aren't so wildly different as to make the models appear unrealistic, then variations are perfectly tolerable. As intimated, there must have been variations on the real thing. Weathering, as well (which I insist upon to some degree), also alter's a colour's appearance.

 

One must also take into account that all of these are 'layout locos', made to be run (and run hard), not meant to live in a glass case, and, because of that, subject to the odd dent, knock and scrape down the years.

 

I state again, I'm very fortunate to have some many beautifully-painted locos running on Little Bytham. 

 

 

 

 

 

I genuinely think that in the case of something like a base colour, having a variety of shades is more realistic than having them all the same colour.

 

My recollections of shed bashing in the 1970s were that there were very few locos that looked exactly the same colour as the one they were next to.

 

In John Quick's book on GCR liveries, he recounts being in touch with Percy Banyard, a former GCR loco man, to establish the "correct" shade for GCR green and Percy responded to say that he recalled turning up at the shed one day and there being 4 GCR green locos lined up and all 4 were different colours.

[t-b-g]

2 minutes ago, Chamby said:

 

Yes the handrails do look a different shade to the flat sides of the loco and tender... but then compare them to where the panels curve in towards the cab, which will definitely have been painted from the same pot of paint, at the same time.

 

The curve inwards on the cab side is very much in shadow, cast by the handrail itself. You can see the shadow on the tender handrail directly behind the rail too. So we know where the light is coming from and that the sunlight is strong enough to cast a clear shadow. So I am comparing the bits where the light is falling in the same way, especially on those pillars, which being round catch the full range of reflections.

 

I am happy to agree that we see things differently. Neither of us can prove anything so it can only be our opinions anyway.

[MJI]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

I understand all the reasons why things may look the way that they do and that all our eyes are different and that all our screens are different.

 

I have just "snipped" another portion of the image.

 

 

If anybody wants to tell me that the handrail and the cab/tender side sheets are the same colour then I should probably never paint a model ever again as my eyes are not fit for purpose when it comes to colours! We can argue until the cows come home about what the correct shades of green are, or whether they are green, grey or dirty metal coloured, or whether we are all seeing the same thing on our screens but can anybody really say that they look as if they are the same colour as the body sides? Even the sides catching the direct light look different, so it isn't just an issue of shadows.

 

Anyway, if nobody wants to agree with me, that is fine but if I ever build a model of Sir Hugo as it was in August 1946, mine will have dark green handrails! 

 

Knobs are same colour as the strip at the bottom below the white.

 

The shadow on the handrails is the same colour as the bottom stripe.

 

The bright side of the handrails is very similar to the green panels. Either dirty or a different surface finish (matt vs glass as an example).

 

I selected some green and dragged it half over the handrail. Very similar colours.

 

Used paint colour picker in paint

[thegreenhowards]

Can I ask the assembled experts on here a question about Mashima motors?
 

I’ve been having trouble for some time with my J6 which I built about 4 years ago when SE Finecast first re-released the Nucast model. It ran smoothly but extremely slowly. It was just about OK on the engineer’s’ train which is its normal duty but I like to have some spare power and speed and there was none. Recently it’s gone from being slow to slowing down and stopping, so it was time to investigate. The original motor was a small Mashima - possibly a 1220 - see photos below which show the old motor beside the chassis.

 

It measures 12mm across the flat sides of the can and 20mm long including the thinner bit where the bushes are.

 

Anyway I replaced it with one of John Isherwood’s Mitsumi motors as seen in the photos above and the difference is remarkable. It took quite a bit of white metal removal from the firebox sides to fit it in which is probably why I didn’t use it in the first place. But the loco runs smoothly with plenty of power and can get up to a scale 60mph which is ample. 
 

I now need to touch up the paint where she got battered in the process and then she can re-enter traffic.

 

 

My question (really as a learning point for me) to the experts is would you have expected the small Mashima to be up to the job or is it more likely that the motor is defective? It runs fine with 12v applied across the terminals now it’s out of the loco.

 

Andy

 

[Tony Wright]

4 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Can I ask the assembled experts on here a question about Mashima motors?
 

I’ve been having trouble for some time with my J6 which I built about 4 years ago when SE Finecast first re-released the Nucast model. It ran smoothly but extremely slowly. It was just about OK on the engineer’s’ train which is its normal duty but I like to have some spare power and speed and there was none. Recently it’s gone from being slow to slowing down and stopping, so it was time to investigate. The original motor was a small Mashima - possibly a 1220 - see photos below which show the old motor beside the chassis.

 

It measures 12mm across the flat sides of the can and 20mm long including the thinner bit where the bushes are.

 

Anyway I replaced it with one of John Isherwood’s Mitsumi motors as seen in the photos above and the difference is remarkable. It took quite a bit of white metal removal from the firebox sides to fit it in which is probably why I didn’t use it in the first place. But the loco runs smoothly with plenty of power and can get up to a scale 60mph which is ample. 
 

I now need to touch up the paint where she got battered in the process and then she can re-enter traffic.

 

 

My question (really as a learning point for me) to the experts is would you have expected the small Mashima to be up to the job or is it more likely that the motor is defective? It runs fine with 12v applied across the terminals now it’s out of the loco.

 

Andy

 

Good afternoon Andy,

 

I've come across this apparent loss of power with regard to Mashima motors down the years. 

 

On occasions, it's terminal and the motor is rendered a dud. However, it can be caused by muck on the commutator building up. What I've done is to gently unscrew the brushes and then remove them (extremely carefully), making sure that the springs don't escape. Then, carefully clean the commutator with a cocktail stick, and use a pin to clear the slots. If necessary, just increase the pressure exerted by the springs (by gently pulling them longer) before inserting the brushes back in. 

 

It has worked, but not always. I must have replaced about a dozen Mashimas down the years, but that's well less than 10% of the number of locos I've put them in. It's also after years of hard work.

 

On some Mashima models, the brushes cannot be removed. In that case, it's a new motor! 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[cctransuk]

18 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Can I ask the assembled experts on here a question about Mashima motors?
 

I’ve been having trouble for some time with my J6 which I built about 4 years ago when SE Finecast first re-released the Nucast model. It ran smoothly but extremely slowly. It was just about OK on the engineer’s’ train which is its normal duty but I like to have some spare power and speed and there was none. Recently it’s gone from being slow to slowing down and stopping, so it was time to investigate. The original motor was a small Mashima - possibly a 1220 - see photos below which show the old motor beside the chassis.

 

It measures 12mm across the flat sides of the can and 20mm long including the thinner bit where the bushes are.

 

Anyway I replaced it with one of John Isherwood’s Mitsumi motors as seen in the photos above and the difference is remarkable. It took quite a bit of white metal removal from the firebox sides to fit it in which is probably why I didn’t use it in the first place. But the loco runs smoothly with plenty of power and can get up to a scale 60mph which is ample. 
 

I now need to touch up the paint where she got battered in the process and then she can re-enter traffic.

 

 

My question (really as a learning point for me) to the experts is would you have expected the small Mashima to be up to the job or is it more likely that the motor is defective? It runs fine with 12v applied across the terminals now it’s out of the loco.

 

Andy

 

 

Thank you for your kind words concerning the Mitsumi motors that I have for sale.

 

It would appear that you have mounted the motor 'on the slant', which will account for much of the whitemetal carving that you undertook. It really is very easy to drill the gearbox to allow the motor to be mounted 'square'; or, if you prefer, it is even easier to solder the motor case to the gearbox!

 

John Isherwood.

[jwealleans]

There was one Mashima in the 12 series which was widely reckoned to be underpowered and best avoided, but I can't recall which it was.

 

I've used the same combination of Mitsumi motor and HL gearbox in the two J6s I built last year and was very happy with both.  The J5 I'm just finishing would have had the same but I tried one of HL's new coreless motors in that instead (equally happy).   If you've seen Grantham over the last few years you'll have seen any number of those Mitsumis in the different kit built locos on there.