Wright writes.....

[micklner]

DCC a shorter reply

 

No way !!

 

Far far too expensive.

 

Sound the most annoying thing ever invented .

What is the point of all the noise (why would anyone want hear to coal being shovelled !!) if the Loco isn't producing Steam and other diesel fumes .What we do need is a decent Steam generator , then Trains will actually finally look like the rest thing and perhaps then a few muted noises at the same time.

 

Shorts they happen, not the end of the world to sort out and the motor unless you are very unlucky isn't harmed. DCC seem to have a lot of problems with smoking decoders !! = ££

 

The fact that Hornby doesnt sell many DCC fitted Locos anymore, would suggest they are not the best sellers otherwise it would now be the norm for everything to be sold DCC fitted.

 

3D Printing

I now have a printed chassis for a 2-4-2 to try , opinions in due course.

Edited November 17, 2015 by micklner

[Focalplane]

People who depend on RTR, run their locos on settrack around the skirting boards and are reputedly incapable of doing the simplest thing are often mentioned on this forum. Yet they are the guys who have taken on board DCC!

Larry, not all skirting board layouts are like you suggest:

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1581/entry-16031-baseboard-carpentry-completed/

 

After a lot of searching through the aisles of my local bricolage in southern France I decided to use French skirting board as a lightweight but strong option for my 4mm portable layout (which is now in store in England, proving the point).  It is made of MDF so must not get wet, but then neither should the rest of the layout.

[jwealleans]

To go back to the colour question:

 

 

Vauxhall Gazelle beige over BMW Zinnobar Red. Photo taken (deliberately) in natural light outside.

Edited October 26, 2018 by jwealleans

[Focalplane]

 Vauxhall Gazelle Beige. I think it is now discontinued as a Halfords colour, but is available as a special order. It is also available online.

 

John

John, many thanks.  However the colour is not showing on Halfords web site, the search function of which is not very efficient.

[Focalplane]

To go back to the colour question:

 

 

Vauxhall Gazelle beige over BMW Zinnobar Red. Photo taken (deliberately) in natural light outside.

Jonathan, see my post above about availability of the Vauxhall Gazelle Beige (I always thought that Singer made the Gazelle!)

[queensquare]

Interesting discussions as usual. I thought it was time we had a little more 2mm on the thread and add my tuppence worth to the DCC debate.

 

My Bath Queensquare project (see link in the signature) has long been DCC and I have recently converted my North Somerset Light stock to DCC. No need to convert the layouts as the wiring is the same. The main reason is flexibility of operation and, for me, better running. This latter is probably more noticeable in 2mm than the other scales as reliable pickup is our main concern and there is no doubt that having 16v available all the time helps here. 

 

 

To answer Tony's points.

 

Firstly cost. There is no denying this and if you already have a substantial collection then it would be expensive and time consuming to do.

 

Chips are not difficult to install, particularly for anybody who is capable of building a kit. The little Hudswell Clarke in the attached picture has a CT chip in it and runs beautifully - its 2mm and smaller than my Terrier (which is also chipped). That said, I would agree with Tony in that getting the lid off some of the recent RTR offerings without breaking some of the very fragile plastic detail is not always easy. Give me a metal bodied loco with detail solidly soldered in place  anytime.

The fact there are a number of people out there who cant fit chips is fine by me, fitting chips for customers of my local model shop, The Gas Cupboard in Trowbridge helps pay the bills!

 

Better running - myth! A poor running loco will not be improved by DCC, if anything its worse. That said, a sweet running loco may be improved if you wish to go to the trouble of tuning the chip to the specific motor but in all honesty, in my experience its marginal, and I rarely bother. 

 

Short circuits. Two points here, firstly a major short will stop a layout dead whether DC or DCC. I still wire a layout into sections or regions despite using DCC so that fault finding is easy.

Secondly, to overcome momentary short circuits which DC will just glide through with perhaps just a short stutter you can get expensive gadgets. Alternately you simply wire a car side light bulb in series with the DCC feed. Not only does it stop the whole system coming to a grinding haul but also tells you where the short circuit is - normally driving into a point not set!

 

Mode of operation. Couldn't agree with Tony more. DCC is brilliant at driving trains and should be kept completely separate from operating points, signals etc - that's the signalman's job, not the driver. I dislike trying to work everything from the same console, tablet, whatever. I do see some operators and I'm not sure if they are trying to operate the layout or compose a lengthy text message!

 

Can I add John Greenwood's Wadebridge to the list of layouts that successfully use DCC (again see link in signature). The added flexibility makes operating a joy. I can pull into the station with a Padstow train and John can drop on the rear with some tail traffic - two locos on the same line and we don't have to worry about which controller has which section etc. Likewise changing locos at Wadebridge and going on and off shed. Needless to say, the points and signals are completely separate. You set your route and drive your train.

That said, having had the pleasure of playing with LB, (well more Kim, I was a lineside spotter), I don't see that with this type of layout DCC would bring any great advantage and I find it hard to believe that the quality of running on LB could be improved.

 

Finally sound, it is one of those Marmite issues. I have a handful of sound fitted locos (2mm) and they can be fun when the mood takes me but they can also be intensely irritating. Ever spent the day next to a sound fitted layout at a show that is too loud - particularly an American one ding ding ding ding..............ahhhhhhh!

 

I've just looked at the Warley floorplan and realised I'm sat next to Tony for the weekend so in between chatting with the public Im sure we will be able to put all thes various debates to bed:-))

 

Jerry 

Edited November 17, 2015 by queensquare

[jwealleans]

Jonathan, see my post above about availability of the Vauxhall Gazelle Beige

Paul, I'm afraid I'm going to be unhelpful and say I still have my can which has done around a dozen carriages and hasn't yet expired. A quick Google has brought up two or three possible sources, though (try under Opel as well as Vauxhall).

[Tony Wright]

Interesting discussions as usual. I thought it was time we had a little more 2mm on the thread and add my tuppence worth to the DCC debate.

 

My Bath Queensquare project (see link in the signature) has long been DCC and I have recently converted my North Somerset Light stock to DCC. No need to convert the layouts as the wiring is the same. The main reason is flexibility of operation and, for me, better running. This latter is probably more noticeable in 2mm than the other scales as reliable pickup is our main concern and there is no doubt that having 16v available all the time helps here. 

 

 

To answer Tony's points.

 

Firstly cost. There is no denying this and if you already have a substantial collection then it would be expensive and time consuming to do.

 

Chips are not difficult to install, particularly for anybody who is capable of building a kit. The little Hudswell Clarke in the attached picture has a CT chip in it and runs beautifully - its 2mm and smaller than my Terrier (which is also chipped). That said, I would agree with Tony in that getting the lid off some of the recent RTR offerings without breaking some of the very fragile plastic detail is not always easy. Give me a metal bodied loco with detail solidly soldered in place  anytime.

The fact there are a number of people out there who cant fit chips is fine by me, fitting chips for customers of my local model shop, The Gas Cupboard in Trowbridge helps pay the bills!

 

Better running - myth! A poor running loco will not be improved by DCC, if anything its worse. That said, a sweet running loco may be improved if you wish to go to the trouble of tuning the chip to the specific motor but in all honesty, in my experience its marginal, and I rarely bother. 

 

Short circuits. Two points here, firstly a major short will stop a layout dead whether DC or DCC. I still wire a layout into sections or regions despite using DCC so that fault finding is easy.

Secondly, to overcome momentary short circuits which DC will just glide through with perhaps just a short stutter you can get expensive gadgets. Alternately you simply wire a car side light bulb in series with the DCC feed. Not only does it stop the whole system coming to a grinding haul but also tells you where the short circuit is - normally driving into a point not set!

 

Mode of operation. Couldn't agree with Tony more. DCC is brilliant at driving trains and should be kept completely separate from operating points, signals etc - that's the signalman's job, not the driver. I dislike trying to work everything from the same console, tablet, whatever. I do see some operators and I'm not sure if they are trying to operate the layout or compose a lengthy text message!

 

Can I add John Greenwood's Wadebridge to the list of layouts that successfully use DCC (again see link in signature). The added flexibility makes operating a joy. I can pull into the station with a Padstow train and John can drop on the rear with some tail traffic - two locos on the same line and we don't have to worry about which controller has which section etc. Likewise changing locos at Wadebridge and going on and off shed. Needless to say, the points and signals are completely separate. You set your route and drive your train.

That said, having had the pleasure of playing with LB, (well more Kim, I was a lineside spotter), I don't see that with this type of layout DCC would bring any great advantage and I find it hard to believe that the quality of running on LB could be improved.

 

Finally sound, it is one of those Marmite issues. I have a handful of sound fitted locos (2mm) and they can be fun when the mood takes me but they can also be intensely irritating. Ever spent the day next to a sound fitted layout at a show that is too loud - particularly an American one ding ding ding ding..............ahhhhhhh!

 

I've just looked at the Warley floorplan and realised I'm sat next to Tony for the weekend so in between chatting with the public Im sure we will be able to put all thes various debates to bed:-))

 

Jerry 

Thanks Jerry,

 

That'll mean I'm sitting next to you at Warley. Apologies for my pedantry, but this sat instead of sitting/stood instead of standing seems to be the norm' these days. It's appeared in BRM (and other contemporary mags), frequently on this site and is so common in the media (Mr Atherton and Mr Lloyd) right now that I wonder if all the dire threats from my English teacher at school when I couldn't initially master the rudiments of grammar were worth it. 

 

As usual, perfect points made and as lucid as ever. The particular point about full voltage being available all the time is well-made and one I cannot disagree with. When I photographed John's layout (in the last century), the running was perfect then - way before DCC? So, he's perfected perfection. Again, that being the case, I concede the 'argument' entirely. 

 

As for the myths - good on you for de-bunking them! Though my crumbling faculties fail faster and faster, I seem to recall that the initial propaganda for DCC was that you only needed two wires (did the propagandists plagiarise the old Farish Formoway advert?) and that smoother running was guaranteed. 

 

But, each to their own. That said, thank goodness the idea of operating the whole DCC system (or any system) from just one gadget seems to be soundly rejected. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by Tony Wright

[St Enodoc]

is so common in the media (Mr Atherton and Mr Lloyd) right now

Do you think that that has anything to do with them both being from West of the Pennines - almost a regional dialect variation?

 

Incidentally, my late parents met David Lloyd many years ago while on holiday in the Yorkshire Dales. It turned out that he was quite interested in model trains at that time.

[The Stationmaster]

Thanks Jerry,

 

That'll mean I'm sitting next to you at Warley. Apologies for my pedantry, but this sat instead of sitting/stood instead of standing seems to be the norm' these days. It's appeared in BRM (and other contemporary mags), frequently on this site and is so common in the media (Mr Atherton and Mr Lloyd) right now that I wonder if all the dire threats from my English teacher at school when I couldn't initially master the rudiments of grammar were worth it. 

 

As usual, perfect points made and as lucid as ever. The particular point about full voltage being available all the time is well-made and one I cannot disagree with. When I photographed John's layout (in the last century), the running was perfect then - way before DCC? So, he's perfected perfection. Again, that being the case, I concede the 'argument' entirely. 

 

As for the myths - good on you for de-bunking them! Though my crumbling faculties fail faster and faster, I seem to recall that the initial propaganda for DCC was that you only needed two wires (did the propagandists plagiarise the old Farish Formoway advert?) and that smoother running was guaranteed. 

 

But, each to their own. That said, thank goodness the idea of operating the whole DCC system (or any system) from just one gadget seems to be soundly rejected. 

I do hope you two won't be chatting to each other all the time as I'd like to talk to Tony about my bete noire - producing pickups which actually work.  I have all the makings of a large prairie sitting in various places around the house and apart from the gearbox (a new thing to this old fellah) the thing which has always let me down in the past is getting pickups right.

 

As far as sound is concerned my reservations on steam sound have been slightly eased by the latest addition to Charlie Petty's team with some excellent 8F sounds but I still for the life of me can't see how you can notch up on a 4mm scale loco without a lot of control sophistication and as for someone wanting a wheelslip sound I remain even more sceptical as listening to the exhaust sound of a slip while watching the wheels not slipping is even worse than hearing the draincocks open without any steam coming out from the front end of the engine.

[Focalplane]

Malcolm Binns has replied to my "custard" question and is happy for me to share with you all the following:

 

"It has taken me a while but I found a tin.

 

The paint is labelled; manufacturer - RAL 841  1000 and is called GREU BIEGE. (I use cellulose!)

 

You might only get it from a panel factors."

 

I am going to suggest this inquiry be closed now.  Jonathan's post above is good because Opel cars are sold in France so I can continue my search there next week.  Thank you to those who helped!

[Tony Wright]

I do hope you two won't be chatting to each other all the time as I'd like to talk to Tony about my bete noire - producing pickups which actually work.  I have all the makings of a large prairie sitting in various places around the house and apart from the gearbox (a new thing to this old fellah) the thing which has always let me down in the past is getting pickups right.

 

As far as sound is concerned my reservations on steam sound have been slightly eased by the latest addition to Charlie Petty's team with some excellent 8F sounds but I still for the life of me can't see how you can notch up on a 4mm scale loco without a lot of control sophistication and as for someone wanting a wheelslip sound I remain even more sceptical as listening to the exhaust sound of a slip while watching the wheels not slipping is even worse than hearing the draincocks open without any steam coming out from the front end of the engine.

Mike,

 

Please bring along your loco and I'll have a go at installing my style of pick-ups (which work). If anyone else is 'struggling' with a loco they're making, then please bring that along, too. I cannot claim I'll be able to fix anything, but I'll do my best. The exceptions will include anything N Gauge (I've learned my lesson there) or anything fitted with DCC. Another obvious exception will be anything in P4, but my help won't be needed there. 

 

As far as I know, I'm manning a demonstration stand at Warley where I'll be showing my methods of building locos/stock. I'm also supposed to give a presentation on 'Selective Compression'. This will be based around my model of Little Bytham, explaining how we've managed to get a full-length/full-width (almost) main line prototype depiction into the available space without too many compromises. I'll be using other prototype-based layouts I've photographed as well.  

[Tony Wright]

Do you think that that has anything to do with them both being from West of the Pennines - almost a regional dialect variation?

 

Incidentally, my late parents met David Lloyd many years ago while on holiday in the Yorkshire Dales. It turned out that he was quite interested in model trains at that time.

It could be John, but it's prevalent around here, and almost universal in the W. Midlands. 

 

I knew Bumble was interested in (model) railways from a comment he made during a test-match at Old Trafford. A tram went past, and he commented that it was once a main line from Chester to Manchester. He'd underlined the locos he'd seen on it in his Ian Allan abc of the period, though he didn't say he'd been sat on Warwick Road Station at the time. 

[queensquare]

Mike,

 

Please bring along your loco and I'll have a go at installing my style of pick-ups (which work). If anyone else is 'struggling' with a loco they're making, then please bring that along, too. I cannot claim I'll be able to fix anything, but I'll do my best. The exceptions will include anything N Gauge (I've learned my lesson there) or anything fitted with DCC. Another obvious exception will be anything in P4, but my help won't be needed there. 

 

As far as I know, I'm manning a demonstration stand at Warley where I'll be showing my methods of building locos/stock. I'm also supposed to give a presentation on 'Selective Compression'. This will be based around my model of Little Bytham, explaining how we've managed to get a full-length/full-width (almost) main line prototype depiction into the available space without too many compromises. I'll be using other prototype-based layouts I've photographed as well.

 

You are quite correct I will be sitting next to you all weekend - I didn't go to school just to eat my sandwiches and chase the girls - honest!

 

Interestingly, I'm bringing along a selection of models and research material from my Bath project and will be discussing adapting a prototype - including selective compression. I'm hoping to get cover so I can go and listen to Tony's presentation as I'm very interested in his thoughts on this. In my experience compressing a sprawling rural prototype like LB without loosing the character is more challenging than a more urban one like Bath.

 

 

Jerry

[Focalplane]

Every time I see the word "compression" I think of C J Freezer and his layout books:  "the urge to compress was on. . . . ."

[coachmann]

Having worked on everyday steam, I know how and why sounds are made from the footplate and so the DCC sounds I came across on YouTube were real off-putters. But I cannot take any credit for fitting the DCC equipment nor for spending hours on altering the CV's. It is done by a friend and my only input is trying to explain what it is I am looking for. There was no going back to silence after listening to the first loco but then the second loco had a different program that brought with it a whole lot more possibilities in the sound department. Real locos working freight trains spend half their time coasting or on light steam once their trains are on the move and this was now possible, so I standardized on Digitrains and had the initial chip reblown to match. Fortunately my locos never reach a fast speed so I don't have to listen to the unrealistic sound that current decoder programs produce.  So that's my take on DCC and sound on a small layout.

Edited November 17, 2015 by coachmann

[Focalplane]

My first forays into DCC sound were in North America and I have three HO locos with sound, all of which seem very lifelike.  Many of the sounds can also be played on a DC wired layout as long as a suitable DC controller is employed.

 

Sound in the UK is probably 10 years behind the US but catching up fast.  But not all sound chips are the same.  Over a Year ago I asked a question on RMWeb about the possibility of being able to hear sounds on-line before buying.  The response was limited to one provider.

 

The Bachmann Patriot with factory fitted sound is not at all bad (Hattons were discounting it not so long ago which does imply that it was not a big seller) and it is possible to synchronize the 3 cylinder beat with the driver rotation using a CV.  The better system is to have a six segment wheel attached to a driving axle and pick up a signal to drive the chuffs - wheel slip might be simulated in this way.

 

Top end 0 gauge locos will soon have life-like smoke (and maybe steam from the safety valves, etc. eventually) if Lee Marsh's experiments become commercial reality:

 

 

When the Patriot starts on the second run you can see the 6 beats per revolution quite clearly managed from the driving axle sensor.

[Tony Wright]

Every time I see the word "compression" I think of C J Freezer and his layout books:  "the urge to compress was on. . . . ."

Every model railway I've ever photographed has to be compressed somewhere, no matter what its size. Even the mighty Retford cannot accommodate the Idle bridge, the Great North Road (in two places) and the GC shed. 

 

Many roundy-roundies have too-tight bends on-scene; bends that would not be tolerated in a colliery, let alone without a continuous check rail. Terminus-to-fiddle yard depictions often feature a too-tight curve to form an 'L'-shaped configuration. 

 

A layout has to end somewhere and be accommodated in a given space. My 'Selective Compression' talk will be based around Little Bytham. The main line section is compressed by 15", and I'll explain about that. The MR/M&GNR section is not just compressed, but squashed! It'll be up to others to decide if it 'works'. Where a prototype is represented, I have a few ideas as to what I'd 'tolerate' and what I'd be unhappy with. 

 

 

Years ago when I spoke to Gavin Morrison and Derek Penney (just outside York) they said I could use their pictures if credited. I hope this still holds good. This is a shot by Gavin, taken from the MR/M&GNR formation in 1958, looking south. 

 

 

This is my attempt to replicate it (sans smoke). The 15" short is to the north of the nearest point, so I live with that. What's most important (to me) is that further compression would result in the overall effect being spoilt. The railway site is full scale-width and every point, crossing and siding is included - to full scale length. The Willoughby Arms, being built by Bob Dawson, will fit in its exact spot when completed. What's more important is that the scenic-side tracks go off on the straight, not around some preposterously sharp curve. This 'going straight' is vital to me, especially on a fast main line. The real compression here, however, is the area hidden by the smoke on the prototype shot - the Glen Valley. When trying to replicate real pictures, how do we 'capture' the background successfully? BcB has done it brilliantly by using a pastiche of real photographs. 

 

I'll be using these pictures in my talk as part of (I hope) a thought-provoking Q&A.

 

Apologies if they've appeared before. 

Edited November 17, 2015 by Tony Wright

[Willie Whizz]

 

 

... Drive trains and wheels in RTR locos can leave a lot to be desired and yes the valve gear seems a bit pathetic being flimsy to say the least. 

 

Baz

 

There is a remedy that would add strength of course ... but then no doubt you'll have people complaining that it's over-scale and clunky!

 

Who'd be a manufacturer - you really, really can't please all the people all the time ...

[Focalplane]

Every time I see the word "compression" I think of C J Freezer and his layout books:  "the urge to compress was on. . . . ."

Tony

 

Please don't take this is as a criticism!  It's one of those rare writings that have stuck with me through thick and thin for over fifty years.  There have been many more important phrases I would have preferred to retain.  But I can't remember them.

 

Paul

[bbishop]

As for the myths - good on you for de-bunking them! Though my crumbling faculties fail faster and faster, I seem to recall that the initial propaganda for DCC was that you only needed two wires (did the propagandists plagiarise the old Farish Formoway advert?) and that smoother running was guaranteed. 

 

But, each to their own. That said, thank goodness the idea of operating the whole DCC system (or any system) from just one gadget seems to be soundly rejected. 

Yes, Höchstädt has two wires (blue and red) for the DCC and another two wires (green and orange) for the analogue auxiliary systems.  Simples.  Smooth running depends on clean track and wheels, so no difference between DC and DCC.

 

I can run Höchstädt from one handset, but as I tie myself up in knots; easier to change the points with a Lenz 100 and the train with a Lenz 90.

 

Bill

[Tony Wright]

Yes, Höchstädt has two wires (blue and red) for the DCC and another two wires (green and orange) for the analogue auxiliary systems.  Simples.  Smooth running depends on clean track and wheels, so no difference between DC and DCC.

 

I can run Höchstädt from one handset, but as I tie myself up in knots; easier to change the points with a Lenz 100 and the train with a Lenz 90.

 

Bill

Thanks Bill,

 

I think the original DCC propaganda was along the lines of implying that only two wires were needed to be connected to the tracks; doing away with section switches and what have you. Just two wires, no more. A bit like a first train set.

 

When I made the DCC DVD with Nigel Burkin (where I didn't need to act to look thick), it was impressed upon all that good wiring practice is the same whatever the control system employed. Thus, every single section of rail (however short) has its own feed. If anything, this is more important with DCC because any voltage drop has a much greater effect than with analogue - to the extent that a signal to a decoder can be corrupted? 

 

Of course, DCC does away with the need for section switches. That said, it could still be an idea to have areas like loco sheds capable of being isolated, if only to prevent what happened to someone I know who programmed his loco on the layout, only to find he'd programmed every other one just the same. 

 

And, if it works for you (and it clearly does), go for it. 

[Tony Wright]

Tony

 

Please don't take this is as a criticism!  It's one of those rare writings that have stuck with me through thick and thin for over fifty years.  There have been many more important phrases I would have preferred to retain.  But I can't remember them.

 

Paul

Paul,

 

There's no way I'd take anything you say as a criticism. Compression is essential in almost all model railways. Years ago, Wolverhampton MRC built a scale model of Moretonhampstead. It was over 30' long, just for a very modest country terminus with one platform, a run-round loop, a couple of sidings and a single-road loco shed. If anything, though beautifully-modelled, its operation was rather boring; even though we ran far more trains than the prototype ever did.

 

There was no compression, selective or otherwise, but a much more interesting terminus could have been constructed in the same space; with just a touch of compression.

 

This is where slavishly following a prototype (including prototypical operation), though very realistic, can 'fail' as an exhibition layout. Our own Stoke Summit, if modelled to scale length would have been over 94' long. That's very selective compression indeed - the rule of thirds reversed! If we'd modelled it to scale, not only would it have been excluded from all but the largest exhibitions, but the frequency of trains (though we'd have at least three times as many) would have been reduced by two thirds. In short, an exhibition dud.    

[Barry O]

Tony

 

don't worry about dcc fixing at Warley as Mr. S.corn78 (Simon) and Bob Harper will be at Warley to help with that. Indeed I suggest you try and listen to Bob's talk as he has a layout which just won't work using dc (and trust me he did try with 9 way section selector switches).

 

Hopefully our talks and demos should give people a lot to talk about.

 

Baz

[t-b-g]

Consider two ways of making a loco "not go" while you drive others?

 

One is to put a simple on/off switch in the wire to the track.

 

The other is to leave full voltage on the track but to put a circuit board between the transformer and the track, use that to feed a signal superimposed over the supply voltage to a circuit board and microprocessor in the loco and then use that chip to tell the system not to supply any volts to the motor.

 

To my poor brain, there is only one of those that qualifies as simple and straightforward. Only one that I fully understand if and when it goes wrong.

 

So I am with Tony W. 100%.

 

Good luck and best wishes to anybody who prefers the DCC route but please count me out!

 

I have dabbled and that is enough I don't want to get further involved, having seen too many strange faults that I cannot explain, diagnose or fix.

 

Tony G