Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

I wouldn't bother with the Kirk Gresley's as they are two inaccurate in their basic proportions. Much better to support existing manufactures such as Dart castings and Kemilway, both of whom produce a far better product.

[Tony Wright]

Many thanks for all the good wishes, and the many pictures showing layout signage; most impressive. 

 

As mentioned in a previous post, this time of year is one for reflection. 

 

 

 

These are the eight locos I've built and/or had painted since the summer, though all have been built this year. Ian Rathbone painted the blue A4 and Geoff Haynes painted the others. He'll also paint the A2 and the A2/2. I'll paint the 9F. With the exception of the A2/2 and the D9, all of these types are available RTR. Fortunately, all of these I've built from kits are still available as such.

 

Apologies for the diverging verticals caused by my using a wide-angle lens.

 

I've just started on a D11 and an A2/3, so I'll report on those accordingly. 

 

Mention has been made of Gresley carriages. It's a great personal disappointment that I can't really use Hornby's Gresleys, except as donors for butchery. The incorrect horizontal beading and almost non-existent tumbleholme render them less than desirable. In teak, do they look more presentable? Perhaps, but not in either of the British Railways' liveries.

 

I was surprised recently finding out that a friend uses them (when great care is taken to get the layout as accurate as possible), though he's in a bit of a cleft stick. He admits to not being able to make things himself, and bespoke Gresleys from professional builders are (quite-rightly) highly-priced, so he's stuck with the Hornby ones, at least in part. Even weathered, they're not for me, which is a great pity - just think how much time I could have spent making other things instead. I did try using them for a short time in complete rakes, but no. 

 

Years ago, I built umpteen Kirk Gresleys, but, apart from a couple I still retain, the battleship-thick sides do militate against them. That said, I've seen some where the eyes have been tricked by altering the reveals a little, so the window surrounds don't look anywhere near as thick. 

 

For me, the way to obtain Gresleys is either by building complete Comet, Kemilway or MJT kits for the various diagrams, or mutilating the Hornby Gresleys and fixing brass sides to them; I've described the processes involved several times.  

[micklner]

Strange relating to Hornby Gresley's Coaches , in particular the decent teak version ,not the last MFI Pine look version, go for high prices on eBay. Personally I can ignore the lack of Tumblehome and enjoy the excellent Teak paintwork. 

 

I have few of the Kirk's sadly they show their age.

[Headstock]

Strange relating to Hornby Gresley's Coaches , in particular the decent teak version ,not the last MFI Pine look version, go for high prices on eBay. Personally I can ignore the lack of Tumblehome and enjoy the excellent Teak paintwork. 

 

I have few of the Kirk's sadly they show their age.

 

The original Hornby finish was pretty good for a mas produced product, but it still looks a little formica compared to the lovely organic finish on Andrews carriage featured above. I recall a Hornby 'chief teak bod' showing me one of the new style finishes at Ally Pally some years back. He asked me for an opinion, I laughed rather inappropriately and asked if it was inspired by the time tunnel effect from 70's Doctor Who.

[mullie]

The term 'horses for courses' could be used I suppose. I bought a couple of the latest Hornby Gresley corridor coaches around 5-6 years ago because they represented a significant improvement on the 1970s versions I had at the time even though I was aware of their flaws. They have detailed interiors, lights, corridor connections, weathering and S&W couplings so they are by no means out of the box. I made the best use of what was available with my then abilities.

 

Time has moved on and so has my modelling ability so the coaches now see little use on my Pott Row layout as new and more appropriate coaching stock, mainly bashed from other bits and pieces have become available, they aren't necessarily better but I prefer them as I built them. Eventually the Gresley's will be replaced by something built from solder, bits of metal and a fair smattering of Anglo Saxon but that will take years and I doubt I will consider simply replacing the sides as I probably need the shortened version built for the GE section. Currently I only run a two coach rake on a 'bitsa' type layout.

 

However, like many people I suspect, if I needed an 8-10 car rake they would have to stay in use far longer maybe with a smattering of kits in-between added when possible as with a more than full time job and family commitments I would have to make the compromise if I wanted to have something vaguely representative.

 

Pott Row has become a victim of my modelling progress as after 10 years it is likely to disappear as I make a move to EM.

 

Hope everyone had a good Christmas and will have a happy new year.

 

Martyn

Edited December 28, 2017 by mullie

[glo41f]

Back in the days when I was in 4mm (Which may soon be repeated), I made some acceptable Gresley GE "shorties" from the then Hornby offerings. I recall cutting the sides from the ends and then re arranging the various sides to make what was then considered to be a very acceptable result. I guess it would be possible to do the same again and the coaches are seemingly abundant on the second hand stalls.

 

Martin Long

[Mallard60022]

So who provides the Ex Kirk range of Maunsells and Bulleids nto the Likes of H & A Models? Do they have 'rights' to Gresleys by any chance? Not that I want any Gresleys.

Andrew of Wizard Comet could be interested in looking at new Gresley sides that would be a 'seller' to the likes of you serious kit builders posting on here (and elsewhere of couyrse) that would fit his existing range of Comet Gresley UFs/parts. 

ATB for next year

Sincerely, 

Phil 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Mallard60022

[Blue Max]

I wouldn't bother with the Kirk Gresley's as they are two inaccurate in their basic proportions. Much better to support existing manufactures such as Dart castings and Kemilway, both of whom produce a far better product.

Dont forget the quite large range of RDEB etched kits available form Andrew Hartshorne of Wizard Models for ECJS, GNR and LNER coaches

[glo41f]

Love the pictures of the line up of the various locos at LB. It must have required a total possession order on behalf of the publicity department to get that lot sorted!  Lots of interesting special notices to the signalmen involved too. Some of the locos seem to have escaped Works Grey after assembly too. Perhaps more shots such as these could be forthcoming on themes like all A4's or A1's and such (I am sure you get the drift). Now that the possession orders have been done it is mere a matter of regenerating them!

 

Happy New Year to all Threadsters!

 

Martin Long

[Headstock]

Dont forget the quite large range of RDEB etched kits available form Andrew Hartshorne of Wizard Models for ECJS, GNR and LNER coaches

 

Evening Blue Max,

 

I didn't include the RDEB kits for a number of reasons. They don't duplicate anything in the Kirk range and they are a little bit clunkier than MJT and Kemilway kits. In addition, more scratch building is required because of the nature of the prototypes. I am not familiar with the whole range so I wouldn't want to comment on the accuracy of the kits. However, the Tourist stock Buffet Car requires a certain amount of modification and additions to the etches supplied.

[Tony Wright]

Dont forget the quite large range of RDEB etched kits available form Andrew Hartshorne of Wizard Models for ECJS, GNR and LNER coaches

I had forgotten to mention Rupert Brown's etched Gresleys. My thanks for mentioning them.

 

 

This is the RDEB ex-1938 Scotsman catering trio, with the RFO modified to include a standing bar for service in the Northumbrian. I've now completed this by making the interiors (obviously not for the Kitchen Car). 

 

 

 

Two further catering cars have been waiting for their interiors for far too long. These are both Hornby/MJT conversions, the RF running on MJT heavy-duty bogies. 

 

 

I used Christmas Day to complete the interiors, an article on which (including how to make several other coach interiors) will be appearing in BRM soon. Strictly speaking, I've got these cars the wrong way round - the RTO should be adjacent to the kitchen of the RF, not the dining saloon. 

 

My mentioning of my not using Hornby Gresleys as supplied was with reference to the gangwayed stock. The non-gangwayed Gresleys have a very good bodyside profile. 

 

 

 

Why I don't use them is evident in this shot, in comparison with another MJT conversion. The lack of tumbleholme is just awful.

 

 

The conversion (with MJT brass overlays) makes a huge difference to the bodyside profile. This BG now runs on the correct 8' standard bogies. 

 

 

Of course, the conversions allow you to make types not made by Hornby, including this TSO. 

 

 

I have three Gresley RFs (a fourth, made from a Kirk kit, was sold), two of which are Hornby/Trice conversions. This one has angle trussing. 

[Tony Wright]

Love the pictures of the line up of the various locos at LB. It must have required a total possession order on behalf of the publicity department to get that lot sorted!  Lots of interesting special notices to the signalmen involved too. Some of the locos seem to have escaped Works Grey after assembly too. Perhaps more shots such as these could be forthcoming on themes like all A4's or A1's and such (I am sure you get the drift). Now that the possession orders have been done it is mere a matter of regenerating them!

 

Happy New Year to all Threadsters!

 

Martin Long

Thanks Martin,

 

Will do..................

[Headstock]

I had forgotten to mention Rupert Brown's etched Gresleys. My thanks for mentioning them.

 

carriages 19.jpg

 

This is the RDEB ex-1938 Scotsman catering trio, with the RFO modified to include a standing bar for service in the Northumbrian. I've now completed this by making the interiors (obviously not for the Kitchen Car). 

 

Gresley RF 01.jpg

 

Gresley RF 02.jpg

 

Two further catering cars have been waiting for their interiors for far too long. These are both Hornby/MJT conversions, the RF running on MJT heavy-duty bogies. 

 

carriages 18.jpg

 

I used Christmas Day to complete the interiors, an article on which (including how to make several other coach interiors) will be appearing in BRM soon. Strictly speaking, I've got these cars the wrong way round - the RTO should be adjacent to the kitchen of the RF, not the dining saloon. 

 

My mentioning of my not using Hornby Gresleys as supplied was with reference to the gangwayed stock. The non-gangwayed Gresleys have a very good bodyside profile. 

 

 Hornby Gresley coach conversion 60.jpg

 

Why I don't use them is evident in this shot, in comparison with another MJT conversion. The lack of tumbleholme is just awful.

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 58.jpg

 

The conversion (with MJT brass overlays) makes a huge difference to the bodyside profile. This BG now runs on the correct 8' standard bogies. 

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 71.jpg

 

Of course, the conversions allow you to make types not made by Hornby, including this TSO. 

 

Hornby Gresley coach conversion 78.jpg

 

I have three Gresley RFs (a fourth, made from a Kirk kit, was sold), two of which are Hornby/Trice conversions. This one has angle trussing. 

 

Evening Tony,

 

a comment on the Gresley BG if I may. These carriages were narrower than the standard passenger stock, as a result the roof had a distinct overhang of the sides and the tumbelhome was much reduced as a result. This gave them  much more of a slab sided appearance than the passenger stock, as both were the same width at the bottom edge. In this respect the Hornby BG is not a million miles off, as it should have a much more reduced end profile in comparison to the passenger stock. That said, the Hornby product is still too wide.

[micklner]

Evening Tony,

 

a comment on the Gresley BG if I may. These carriages were narrower than the standard passenger stock, as a result the roof had a distinct overhang of the sides and the tumbelhome was much reduced as a result. This gave them  much more of a slab sided appearance than the passenger stock, as both were the same width at the bottom edge. In this respect the Hornby BG is not a million miles off, as it should have a much more reduced end profile in comparison to the passenger stock. That said, the Hornby product is still too wide.

 

Further to that comment.

 

Probably the camera playing games ? the Tumblehome on the adjacent Full Brake appears to be far more than the normal depth? From research the Tumblehome on a Gresley Coach is 1mm.

 

A good guide from MJT re adding sides to the Hornby versions, as mentioned earlier.

MJT Conversion sides instructions - Hornby addendum.pdf

 

Coachmann has a good thread on RM Web re the conversion, and I have done a couple on my workbench thread as well. 

[Clive Mortimore]

Back in the days when I was in 4mm (Which may soon be repeated), I made some acceptable Gresley GE "shorties" from the then Hornby offerings. I recall cutting the sides from the ends and then re arranging the various sides to make what was then considered to be a very acceptable result. I guess it would be possible to do the same again and the coaches are seemingly abundant on the second hand stalls.

 

Martin Long

Hi Martin

 

If you pop back to 17th March 2017, Tony was kind enough to photograph my conversion of some Hornby "shorties" into a non-gangway articulated twin. Dave aka Chris P Bacon has made some GNR coaches using them for his Sandy layout and I believe there are a few Hornby/GNR coaches running on Grantham.

 

I have recently gained some more but not too sure what to do with them at the moment.

[chris p bacon]

So who provides the Ex Kirk range of Maunsells and Bulleids nto the Likes of H & A Models? Do they have 'rights' to Gresleys by any chance? Not that I want any Gresleys.

Andrew of Wizard Comet could be interested in looking at new Gresley sides that would be a 'seller' to the likes of you serious kit builders posting on here (and elsewhere of couyrse) that would fit his existing range of Comet Gresley UFs/parts. 

ATB for next year

Sincerely, 

Phil 

 

I understand that Phoenix have the Southern moulds and either they manufacture themselves or they have someone mould for them. They did not form part of the sale to Coopercraft.

[Headstock]

Further to that comment.

 

Probably the camera playing games ? the Tumblehome on the adjacent Full Brake appears to be far more than the normal depth? From research the Tumblehome on a Gresley Coach is 1mm.

 

A good guide from MJT re adding sides to the Hornby versions, as mentioned earlier.

MJT Conversion sides instructions - Hornby addendum.pdf

 

Coachmann has a good thread on RM Web re the conversion, and I have done a couple on my workbench thread as well. 

 

Hi Mick,

 

1 mm for a standard carriage, less than that for a full brake because it's narrower at the start of the tumblehome.

[micklner]

Andrew thanks for that info. As I said earlier at 1mm, I can live with the Hornby versions. They go for silly money on eBay in any livery nowadays , the conversion using etched sides is not financially viable , easier to build a kit as per normal.

[Headstock]

Hi Mick,

 

yes, its not so much the tumblehome on the Hornby BG that is the issue, more that the body is two mil wider than the real thing in scale. It dosn't sound like a lot but to put it in perspective, if this was corrected the floor pan that the body sits on would stick out further than the sides of the carriage at their widest point. Something else that may be of interest is that the Thompson deal vans were also narrower than the normal stock. However unlike the other Gresley BG's there was no over hang to the roof, so that they were narrower from cornice to cornice than any of the other LNER BG's. usually when they are modelled they conform to the dimensions of the standard Gresley carriages, quite a difference.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Headstock

[Tony Wright]

Evening Tony,

 

a comment on the Gresley BG if I may. These carriages were narrower than the standard passenger stock, as a result the roof had a distinct overhang of the sides and the tumbelhome was much reduced as a result. This gave them  much more of a slab sided appearance than the passenger stock, as both were the same width at the bottom edge. In this respect the Hornby BG is not a million miles off, as it should have a much more reduced end profile in comparison to the passenger stock. That said, the Hornby product is still too wide.

Thanks Andrew,

 

Are you sure they were the same width at the bottom edge? 

 

A glance at drawing No. 6 showing the end profiles of Gresley's carriages in Nick Campling's book suggests not. The BGs are only as wide at the base as the headstock according to that - the passenger stock is wider at the base. 

 

I shaved at least a mil' each side off the top of the floor pan to get the tumbleholme. Granted, the solebars are then too far out, but the end shape is far better in my view. 

 

Micklner might well be right in that the conversions are not financially viable now. What do Hornby Gresleys currently go for? When I did the conversions they were relatively cheap, and I bought a load with this in mind. A complete etched-brass kit is now around £50.00 (more for an MJT full kit?) - are Hornby Gresleys going for that? 

 

I'm told that all of Hornby's current gangwayed Gresleys have sold well, despite the perceived shortcomings. It make me wonder what sales might have been like if they were right. Certainly, I'd have acquired very many, and not for conversions, though it's a pity more end-door stock wasn't (correctly) produced. 

 

I can't see any other manufacturer tooling-up to make accurate RTR gangwayed Gresleys, nor Hornby revisiting theirs. Which rather makes me wonder, do the end-users really care if they're not right? Judging by the number one sees on layouts at shows and in the press, probably not. 

Edited December 28, 2017 by Tony Wright

[micklner]

Tony

 

 

They are becoming quite rare on ebay , only one decent version Teak Sleeper at the moment asking price £50 , BR versions are about £35. Suburbans are dearer than Corridor versions.

 

 

 

MJT complete kit about £70 !!

[Headstock]

Thanks Andrew,

 

Are you sure they were the same width at the bottom edge? 

 

A glance at drawing No. 6 showing the end profiles of Gresley's carriages in Nick Campling's book suggests not. The BGs are only as wide at the base as the headstock according to that - the passenger stock is wider at the base. 

 

I shaved at least a mil' each side off the top of the floor pan to get the tumbleholme. Granted, the solebars are then too far out, but the end shape is far better in my view. 

 

Micklner might well be right in that the conversions are not financially viable now. What do Hornby Gresleys current go for? When I did the conversions they were relatively cheap, and I bought a load with this in mind. A complete etched-brass kit is now around £50.00 (more for an MJT full kit?) - are Hornby Gresleys going for that? 

 

Evening Tony,

 

just confusing myself, What I meant to say was that both were the same at the top edge, referring to the cornice being the same width on all (with the exception of the Thompson deal BG) The fact that the sides are recessed in comparison to the cornice yet flush with the headstock gives them a more slab sided appearance than the standard carriages with there distinctive overhang at the bottom edge. Hopefully that makes more sense.

 

With regard to the cost of Hornby Gresley carriages, I've never paid over twenty one pounds for one and the lowest price that I have paid has been ten pounds. However, condition is not an issue as they are scrapped for usable parts and still work out cheaper at that price than buying in bogies, interiors, roof sections etc. The main parts that I 'discard' are the sides and the floorpan. I still have a number in stock , it is likely that they will see my time out as a modeller if they are required. The same applies to many other items such as Mashima motors, so that much of my spending is topping up rather than outright purchases.

 

In the meantime back to scratch building ventilators for LMS Banana vans.

Edited December 28, 2017 by Headstock

[Woodcock29]

I have to confess that I have some slab sided Hornby Gresley gangwayed coaches in use on my layout. However they are intermediate versions in that they are models (except for one) that have the corrected beading but the earlier teak livery not that awful Gauge 1 or 7mm livery on the current range. But they are a stop gap until I can get around to building a number of brass kits I have to make a train of mostly ex GN gangwayed stock - a mixture of Danny's D&S, RDEB, Bill Bedford plus a couple of LNER MJT BCKs. The MJT sides might go on a couple of the Hornby coaches in due course?

 

However, prior to that I have locos to build, a heap more GN Howlden stock, mostly D&S - some of which will be articulated, plus a couple of Frank Davies luggage lav comps into an articulated twin, a David Eastern Louth quad and some GN elliptical roof stock - D&S and one of the late John Fozard's body kits.

 

Then there is the layout to finish. Golly I need more time and I'm already retired!

 

Happy New Year to everyone.

 

Andrew

Edited December 29, 2017 by Woodcock29

[Headstock]

Thanks Andrew,

 

Are you sure they were the same width at the bottom edge? 

 

A glance at drawing No. 6 showing the end profiles of Gresley's carriages in Nick Campling's book suggests not. The BGs are only as wide at the base as the headstock according to that - the passenger stock is wider at the base. 

 

I shaved at least a mil' each side off the top of the floor pan to get the tumbleholme. Granted, the solebars are then too far out, but the end shape is far better in my view. 

 

Micklner might well be right in that the conversions are not financially viable now. What do Hornby Gresleys currently go for? When I did the conversions they were relatively cheap, and I bought a load with this in mind. A complete etched-brass kit is now around £50.00 (more for an MJT full kit?) - are Hornby Gresleys going for that? 

 

I'm told that all of Hornby's current gangwayed Gresleys have sold well, despite the perceived shortcomings. It make me wonder what sales might have been like if they were right. Certainly, I'd have acquired very many, and not for conversions, though it's a pity more end-door stock wasn't (correctly) produced. 

 

I can't see any other manufacturer tooling-up to make accurate RTR gangwayed Gresleys, nor Hornby revisiting theirs. Which rather makes me wonder, do the end-users really care if they're not right? Judging by the number one sees on layouts at shows and in the press, probably not. 

 

Probably better illustrated. Take a look at the image below that shows the roof overhang, the subtle curve of the tumblehome and the more slab sided appearance compared to the passenger stock.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/robertcwp/4846397291/

[Tony Teague]

I understand that Phoenix have the Southern moulds and either they manufacture themselves or they have someone mould for them. They did not form part of the sale to Coopercraft.

 

I think Phoenix Precision now have the ex-Kirk Maunsell's; they are selling sides and other parts separately as well as full kits.

 

Tony