Wright writes.....

[Headstock]

What people get up to in their own homes with their modelling is of no concern to myself.  I do feel however, that the advance of RTR is making exhibitions less and less appealing, more generic and ultimately boring. I would add that it has definitely dumbed down the historical aspects of the hobby. There seems to be a steady increase in exhibitors that couldn't tell you anything of interest about what they are modelling, beyond a gleeful delight in their latest purchase. I doubt that I would get involved with the hobby if I was coming to it afresh today. I don't see what the fun is in all that wanting, wanting, waiting, waiting and then complaining about what you get. As for the magazines, I wouldn't waste my money.

[asmay2002]

 I don't see what the fun is in all that wanting, wanting, waiting, waiting and then complaining about what you get.

Isn't this exactly what these same people did when they were trainspotters?

[Headstock]

Isn't this exactly what these same people did when they were trainspotters?

 

Probably explains a lot.

[Tony Wright]

What people get up to in their own homes with their modelling is of no concern to myself.  I do feel however, that the advance of RTR is making exhibitions less and less appealing, more generic and ultimately boring. I would add that it has definitely dumbed down the historical aspects of the hobby. There seems to be a steady increase in exhibitors that couldn't tell you anything of interest about what they are modelling, beyond a gleeful delight in their latest purchase. I doubt that I would get involved with the hobby if I was coming to it afresh today. I don't see what the fun is in all that wanting, wanting, waiting, waiting and then complaining about what you get. As for the magazines, I wouldn't waste my money.

Andrew,

 

I think your statement about 'wanting, wanting, waiting, waiting and then complaining.................' is one of the best summing-ups (or should that be summings-up?) of the hobby right now. I wish I'd thought of it!

 

It is like trainspotting in a way (though one would have to be a trainspotter to fully understand it). One always wanted cops, and, even on main lines, the waiting could be for quite a long time, and, when a train appeared, and you'd seen the loco, shouts of 'Scrap it!' would be a vociferous expression of complaint. However, the big difference is that (true) trainspotters were only ever kids. 'Normal' folk (whatever that might mean) would just grow out of just the collecting of numbers, 'graduating' on into real railway enthusiasm. The wanting and waiting would then (probably) be to get a good photograph, even if you've seen the subject matter many times before. I did complain, of course, when the likes of a Class 47 appeared, instead of a 'Deltic' in front of my lens. However, having just completed by latest bookazine for Irwell on the Brush Type 4s, I'm now glad, because my picture collection is more varied. Be careful what you wish for, and all that.

 

Not many kids today want model railway stuff, and they don't seem to be prepared to wait for anything (in this instant-gratification world which exists today). Those who want and want, those who wait and wait (for something) and those who complain over and over again (all three things) with regard to model railway stuff are adults today, usually those who are incapable of making things for themselves. Those who make stuff, however humble in comparison with 'purchasing power', just get on with it. Long may they continue, because the hobby needs them if it's to remain creative.  

[gr.king]

 the great Graeme King

 

 

 

Who's he? I've never heard of him.

 

 

Bill Bedford made a start on 3D printed exchange cabs and boilers for the O4 variants, with a nice O4/5, and intended to offer others too, but that was some time ago now. I'm not sure whether he has simply been greatly distracted or has not been encouraged by circumstances.

Edited March 3, 2018 by gr.king

[Headstock]

Andrew,

 

I think your statement about 'wanting, wanting, waiting, waiting and then complaining.................' is one of the best summing-ups (or should that be summings-up?) of the hobby right now. I wish I'd thought of it!

 

It is like trainspotting in a way (though one would have to be a trainspotter to fully understand it). One always wanted cops, and, even on main lines, the waiting could be for quite a long time, and, when a train appeared, and you'd seen the loco, shouts of 'Scrap it!' would be a vociferous expression of complaint. However, the big difference is that (true) trainspotters were only ever kids. 'Normal' folk (whatever that might mean) would just grow out of just the collecting of numbers, 'graduating' on into real railway enthusiasm. The wanting and waiting would then (probably) be to get a good photograph, even if you've seen the subject matter many times before. I did complain, of course, when the likes of a Class 47 appeared, instead of a 'Deltic' in front of my lens. However, having just completed by latest bookazine for Irwell on the Brush Type 4s, I'm now glad, because my picture collection is more varied. Be careful what you wish for, and all that.

 

Not many kids today want model railway stuff, and they don't seem to be prepared to wait for anything (in this instant-gratification world which exists today). Those who want and want, those who wait and wait (for something) and those who complain over and over again (all three things) with regard to model railway stuff are adults today, usually those who are incapable of making things for themselves. Those who make stuff, however humble in comparison with 'purchasing power', just get on with it. Long may they continue, because the hobby needs them if it's to remain creative.  

 

Wat the yuf needs is a bit of Rap, in'it. I ain't no wanter, I'm a maker, I ain't no waiter, I'm a creator. I may do some T shirts, etched brass lettering of course.

[petrovich]

Andrew,

 

I think your statement about 'wanting, wanting, waiting, waiting and then complaining.................' is one of the best summing-ups (or should that be summings-up?) of the hobby right now. I wish I'd thought of it!

 

It is like trainspotting in a way (though one would have to be a trainspotter to fully understand it). One always wanted cops, and, even on main lines, the waiting could be for quite a long time, and, when a train appeared, and you'd seen the loco, shouts of 'Scrap it!' would be a vociferous expression of complaint. However, the big difference is that (true) trainspotters were only ever kids. 'Normal' folk (whatever that might mean) would just grow out of just the collecting of numbers, 'graduating' on into real railway enthusiasm. The wanting and waiting would then (probably) be to get a good photograph, even if you've seen the subject matter many times before. I did complain, of course, when the likes of a Class 47 appeared, instead of a 'Deltic' in front of my lens. However, having just completed by latest bookazine for Irwell on the Brush Type 4s, I'm now glad, because my picture collection is more varied. Be careful what you wish for, and all that.

 

Not many kids today want model railway stuff, and they don't seem to be prepared to wait for anything (in this instant-gratification world which exists today). Those who want and want, those who wait and wait (for something) and those who complain over and over again (all three things) with regard to model railway stuff are adults today, usually those who are incapable of making things for themselves. Those who make stuff, however humble in comparison with 'purchasing power', just get on with it. Long may they continue, because the hobby needs them if it's to remain creative.  

Totally agree.

 

Regards

 

Peter

[Clem]

Who's he? I've never heard of him.

 

 

Bill Bedford made a start on 3D printed exchange cabs and boilers for the O4 variants, with a nice O4/5, and intended to offer others too, but that was some time ago now. I'm not sure whether he has simply been greatly distracted or has not been encouraged by circumstances.

 

Graeme, I think Bill Bedford was a little less than fully satisfied with the finish of the 3-D printed O4/5 body although, like you, I found that with a fair amount of filler coats and smoothing back , you could remove the ribbing get a pretty decent result. He then decided he would do the O4/7 and O4/8 in resin instead but as yet I believe there are insufficient pre-orders for him to commence. They are still listed as a future product on his web site though.

[Enterprisingwestern]

With reference to to the RTR/bashing/kitbuilding issue.

To me, the problem is that as RTR becomes better finessed, it hoovers up the tentative modeller who may have had a go at building his own but now won't, and also some modellers, who, quite sensibly, buy the more than adequate RTR model rather than kit build as it saves that rarest of commodities, time. Now, what that modeller does with the time saved can make or break the kitbuilding industry, does he look at the saving and put it towards something else that they require, or, if their requirements are for a more limited amount of stock, say on a smaller layout, they won't have the need to build anything else.

It seems to me, as Tony has said, that RTR is taking the upper hand, and kitbuilding and it's associated manufacturers are on somewhat of a downward spiral. Maybe scratchbuilding might end up being the norm in the fullness of time?

 

Mike.

[Chamby]

A couple of points re: the RTR issue:

 

The wanting/waiting/complaining contingent may be very vocal on this forum but represent a very small minority of the RTR modellers. The rest are happy purchasers and users of the products that make the hobby accessible to the 99%. Tony and the other dedicated scratchbuilders and kit bashers are in the 1% I would suggest... although there will be rather more who do a bit of each.

 

Mike has hit the nail on the head re: time being a critical thing. I would also add ability into the mix. Most railway modellers are rather more time constrained in their hobby interests than Tony seems to be. Very few seem able to match his prolific output. Real life (12 inches to the foot) tends to get in the way for most, I suggest. Work, family, disability, other important commitments all impact on hobby time and modelling capacity. So RTR makes model railways accessible to the majority within the hobby. This inevitably switches the modelling focus more onto building the railway environment than stuff with wheels, but better to use this shortcut than have a pace of progress that becomes wholly discouraging.

 

What Tony et al achieve is exemplary, but is simply unattainable for the majority for very practical reasons. That’s actually what makes his stuff so special!

 

Phil

[TrevorP1]

Time has always been the issue for me and I have had to be content with dabbling with modified RTR. Now that I have retired I have begun my first steps in filling the gaps through kit building. Currently I am working on a Comet chassis for the Hornby N2. If I can make this work successfully my ambition is a DJH Thompson Pacific.

 

Eventually I hope to have a dedicated model railway room built in the garden of our new home but this relies on the sale of my old place and I cannot see a start being less than a year away. The time factor then creeps in again and we are all on a diminishing balance. Notwithstanding the many other things I intend to spend my new found hours on.

 

Therefore it will be kit building for the items I cannot obtain any other way. I must admit though that these few soldered bits of nickel silver in front of me represent a great deal of satisfaction compared to the items in the cabinet on the wall.

[Clive Mortimore]

With reference to to the RTR/bashing/kitbuilding issue.

To me, the problem is that as RTR becomes better finessed, it hoovers up the tentative modeller who may have had a go at building his own but now won't, and also some modellers, who, quite sensibly, buy the more than adequate RTR model rather than kit build as it saves that rarest of commodities, time. Now, what that modeller does with the time saved can make or break the kitbuilding industry, does he look at the saving and put it towards something else that they require, or, if their requirements are for a more limited amount of stock, say on a smaller layout, they won't have the need to build anything else.

It seems to me, as Tony has said, that RTR is taking the upper hand, and kitbuilding and it's associated manufacturers are on somewhat of a downward spiral. Maybe scratchbuilding might end up being the norm in the fullness of time?

 

Mike.

Hi Mike

 

I don't think it will ever catch on, only fools scracthbuild. Sensible people just keep repeating which pre-grouping 0-6-0 tender engine they want on wishlist. Come on Mr Red boxman or Blue boxman I need a LTSR ex Ottoman railway 0-6-0 2F in pre 1928 LMS livery, now.

[Denbridge]

Interestingly, i can recall exactly the same views being commonplace in the 70's and 80s. Not enough young blood coming into the hobby, rtr killing off the creative side of the hobby etc. When i was in my teens i was the only member of a club under 40. Back then we wouldnt in our wildest dreams have imagined the strides the hobby would make. Judging by some of the threads on rmweb, it seems there are a lot of younger modellers producing great work.

I personally get my main enjoyment from kit and scratchbuilding. Having now got my bench laid up its great to be building again after a long layoff, but sourcing some parts is proving difficult. Does anyone know what is happening with marckits wheels? Are the supply problems a yemporary glitch or should i be placing an order with Gibson?

[Tony Wright]

A couple of points re: the RTR issue:

 

The wanting/waiting/complaining contingent may be very vocal on this forum but represent a very small minority of the RTR modellers. The rest are happy purchasers and users of the products that make the hobby accessible to the 99%. Tony and the other dedicated scratchbuilders and kit bashers are in the 1% I would suggest... although there will be rather more who do a bit of each.

 

Mike has hit the nail on the head re: time being a critical thing. I would also add ability into the mix. Most railway modellers are rather more time constrained in their hobby interests than Tony seems to be. Very few seem able to match his prolific output. Real life (12 inches to the foot) tends to get in the way for most, I suggest. Work, family, disability, other important commitments all impact on hobby time and modelling capacity. So RTR makes model railways accessible to the majority within the hobby. This inevitably switches the modelling focus more onto building the railway environment than stuff with wheels, but better to use this shortcut than have a pace of progress that becomes wholly discouraging.

 

What Tony et al achieve is exemplary, but is simply unattainable for the majority for very practical reasons. That’s actually what makes his stuff so special!

 

Phil

Thanks for your very kind words, Phil,

 

However, I'd like to think that actual 'modellers' make up more than 1% of the hobby.

 

I think you're dead right about it only being a minority who actually 'bitch' and moan about current RTR (or the hobby in general). These types are never satisfied, but, now, through modern media, they actually have a 'voice'. A mate once suggested that the internet (in all its forms) now 'gives a voice to those who should be never heard', which is a bit cynical in my view (and I'm a natural cynic). Certainly, the 'voices' heard on this thread should be listened to (even mine?), because they have a lot of sound and practical advice to give, even inspiration. Of course, all can comment, but those who come over as 'pompous' and 'know-it-all tend' to get rumbled. Only recently we were being told that 'we must understand' this or that, by someone who seems to be very much RTR-reliant. Odd, when this is principally a builders' thread. 

 

I agree that there is much more to a layout than just the locos and rolling stock, but I'm seeing much greater use of RTP structures, buildings, signals, RTL trackwork and what have you as well. Though I was a great user of cardboard kits for buildings as a boy, many layouts I see today (at shows and in the press) seem to be rather over-reliant on such things. I'm not saying this is a 'bad thing'; far from it. And, if, as you so rightly suggest, if all the excellent stuff on offer today allows more to participate in the hobby, then that can only be a good thing, can't it? And yet, on a personal level, am I not looking hard enough to see those things which interest me the most? Those things which people have made/modified, by themselves, for themselves. The fact that what's made might be 'inferior' to what a modern factory can produce is irrelevant to me. I know what I'd rather see/read about; something personally made/modified, rather than something bought, but that's me. 

 

As for time to make things, I admit to being very lucky right now, especially with regard to time. Having earned a living (in one way or another) for over 40 years, I'm now retired. Rather than just watch telly, frequent the pub or watch live sport (though I still do those things), I prefer to use my time in the main making models, taking photographs, writing articles, writing books and attending shows (which is what I did when I was last working!). I'm fortunate in having good health (or as good as can be expected into my eight decade on the planet), but Mo's recent bout of being poorly showed me how much time she spends on doing the 'vital' things; which I had to do, temporarily - shopping, cooking (well, micro-waving), a bit of cleaning and generally looking after things. It's opened my non-emancipated eyes to how much a wonderful wife (or partner) really does. 

 

Which brings me on to another point. I've lost count of the number of (male) railway modellers I've met who have rather unsympathetic wives or partners. I tell you no lie, but In the past, as a professional builder, I've had to smuggle models into a house, hoping the lady of the place wouldn't see what was going on (though she probably knew). When organising a team for exhibitions, to be told 'Sorry, I can't make it, it's our anniversary' rather puzzled me. Or, listening to the comments such as 'I'm not having that lot trudging through my house, just to play trains', when a guy wished to show-off his layout, made me wonder what the bloke originally saw in his spouse. My wife is a most welcoming hostess, as those who've visited here, and been fed/watered will testify. One chap I know would love groups to visit his railway, but fears the wrath of 'she who must be obeyed'! 

 

One doesn't have to be married, either. A man I spoke to at one show complained that his sister (with whom he lived) would only let him have a tiny space for a layout, and asked my advice. 'Get a different sister' was my reply, though I'll have to wait until next month before I'll know if he took it.

 

I've seen it in the days when I was a cricket captain as well, trying to get teams together. 'I've already played this week, so that's it; the little lady, you know' was a frequent excuse (often from my best players). I played every possible time, but was I lucky? 

 

I'm not making light of responsibilities, and, I concede, once more, how lucky I've been. Obviously, I've had to be careful financially, but my hobby, in the main, has been self-funding; paid for from my making models, writing articles/books and taking photographs or horse-trading skills. Children need looking after, too, though I doubt I was much good in that department - I exercised my right not to be present at the birth of both my sons, the school secretary relaying messages to me, as I taught, as to progress. One colleague was appalled at such cavalier behaviour, insisting he be present at the birth of his kid, only to pass out during the birth, crack his head open, and need much more attention from the nurses than his baby-producing wife! 

 

So, I carry on. I don't garden, other than trimming the minute lawn and border, though I do odds jobs around the house. I believe that if one follows a creative and productive hobby, then other leisure activities might have to go. If current RTR/RTP gives the opportunity for time for the hobby of railway modelling, especially for those who take their responsibilities properly or have a less-than-understanding partner, then strength to their arms. That said, I'd much sooner see something they've made themselves - even if it has to be done in secret!

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

[Tony Wright]

Interestingly, i can recall exactly the same views being commonplace in the 70's and 80s. Not enough young blood coming into the hobby, rtr killing off the creative side of the hobby etc. When i was in my teens i was the only member of a club under 40. Back then we wouldnt in our wildest dreams have imagined the strides the hobby would make. Judging by some of the threads on rmweb, it seems there are a lot of younger modellers producing great work.

I personally get my main enjoyment from kit and scratchbuilding. Having now got my bench laid up its great to be building again after a long layoff, but sourcing some parts is proving difficult. Does anyone know what is happening with marckits wheels? Are the supply problems a yemporary glitch or should i be placing an order with Gibson?

I phoned up Mark Arscott (Markits) only last week to place an order.

 

He is, however, very, very busy. Which, rather suggests kit-building is still alive and well, at least for the time being. Remember, Mr Romford, who still does a lot of work with the wheels, is well into his 80s. 

[Jol Wilkinson]

The "wanters" are probably far more visible on some internet forums than the "doers" because their main skill is having learned how to type.

 

Of the people I have met and got to know over the years in this hobby, either as friends or acquaintances, only five or six are  members of RMweb as far as I know . They all are primarily model makers but will use and adapt RTR if it suits their needs, although it rarely does. Their modelling is driven by what they want to recreate, not by what Hornby, Bachman and Co. decide to make.

 

So, despite the impression created by the wish lists, frothing and similar threads on RMweb, model making is still healthy.

[t-b-g]

The "wanters" are probably far more visible on some internet forums than the "doers" because their main skill is having learned how to type.

 

Of the people I have met and got to know over the years in this hobby, either as friends or acquaintances, only five or six are  members of RMweb as far as I know . They all are primarily model makers but will use and adapt RTR if it suits their needs, although it rarely does. Their modelling is driven by what they want to recreate, not by what Hornby, Bachman and Co. decide to make.

 

So, despite the impression created by the wish lists, frothing and similar threads on RMweb, model making is still healthy.

 

Couldn't agree more Jol. With a small number of honourable exceptions, the model makers I know spend their time at the workbench making things and not at their keyboards!

[Tetarch60]

Good evening,

 

Thank you for your comments. 

 

As I hope the following pictures show, the trap points and ground dolly you mention are actually on the model.

 

 ground signals 12.jpg

 

ground signals 15B.jpg

 

LB overall view 04.jpg

 

The working ground signals are the work of Roy Vinter, to whom any praise should be given. They are little works of art in my view. 

 

Regards,

 

 

Good evening,

 

Thank you for your comments. 

 

As I hope the following pictures show, the trap points and ground dolly you mention are actually on the model.

 

 ground signals 12.jpg

 

ground signals 15B.jpg

 

LB overall view 04.jpg

 

The working ground signals are the work of Roy Vinter, to whom any praise should be given. They are little works of art in my view. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thank you for the reply to my query.Does Roy Vinter make the dolly signals from kits or scratchbuild or use both mediums?

Tony.

[Bucoops]

I phoned up Mark Arscott (Markits) only last week to place an order.

 

He is, however, very, very busy. Which, rather suggests kit-building is still alive and well, at least for the time being. Remember, Mr Romford, who still does a lot of work with the wheels, is well into his 80s. 

 

I rang Markits on the 13th Feb (to follow up on several emails and unanswered calls) and placed my order. It was smaller than intended because of wheel centre casting issues. I now see I've been billed on the 2nd March so that's about 2 weeks turnaround. That in itself isn't too bad if you discount that I've been emailing and calling intermittently since September last year. I guess in other  words getting hold of Mark isn't easy but when you do the turnaround is good especially as I suspect some parts will need to have been made specially. I know I'm a very small customer but some of the parts were items that no-one would normally stock.

 

Now I just need the post system to catch up after the weather! I willingly admit to being very impatient once I've ordered something. I'm still trying to get used to an industry that sometimes works in lead times measured in days, and sometimes months or even years.

 

I should point out that I am very grateful of companies such as Markits etc - it's myself that needs to adapt to their business methods, not them to mine.

Edited March 4, 2018 by Bucoops

[D.Platt]

Tony

No need to tell you what this is , for some reason it’s overtaken my B16 ! It’s going to be 60153 a rather camera shy York engine.

A few pages back !!! I seem to recall you altered the axleboxes for the roller bearings could you remind me how you accomplish this. Dennis

[Denbridge]

I rang Markits on the 13th Feb (to follow up on several emails and unanswered calls) and placed my order. It was smaller than intended because of wheel centre casting issues. I now see I've been billed on the 2nd March so that's about 2 weeks turnaround. That in itself isn't too bad if you discount that I've been emailing and calling intermittently since September last year. I guess in other  words getting hold of Mark isn't easy but when you do the turnaround is good especially as I suspect some parts will need to have been made specially. I know I'm a very small customer but some of the parts were items that no-one would normally stock.

 

Now I just need the post system to catch up after the weather! I willingly admit to being very impatient once I've ordered something. I'm still trying to get used to an industry that sometimes works in lead times measured in days, and sometimes months or even years.

 

I should point out that I am very grateful of companies such as Markits etc - it's myself that needs to adapt to their business methods, not them to mine.

it sounds like i might be better off placing a direct order rather than through a supplier. I'll give that a go

[Tony Wright]

 

Good evening,

 

Thank you for your comments. 

 

As I hope the following pictures show, the trap points and ground dolly you mention are actually on the model.

 

 ground signals 12.jpg

 

ground signals 15B.jpg

 

LB overall view 04.jpg

 

The working ground signals are the work of Roy Vinter, to whom any praise should be given. They are little works of art in my view. 

 

Regards,

 

 

Good evening,

 

Thank you for your comments. 

 

As I hope the following pictures show, the trap points and ground dolly you mention are actually on the model.

 

 ground signals 12.jpg

 

ground signals 15B.jpg

 

LB overall view 04.jpg

 

The working ground signals are the work of Roy Vinter, to whom any praise should be given. They are little works of art in my view. 

 

Regards,

 

Tony. 

Thank you for the reply to my query.Does Roy Vinter make the dolly signals from kits or scratchbuild or use both mediums?

Tony.

 

Roy made them from MSE parts, with a bit of scratch-building for the mechanisms. 

[Bucoops]

it sounds like i might be better off placing a direct order rather than through a supplier. I'll give that a go

 

I would say for wheels yes as Mark can give a good idea of availabilty on the phone.

[Tony Wright]

Couldn't agree more Jol. With a small number of honourable exceptions, the model makers I know spend their time at the workbench making things and not at their keyboards!

I agree Tony,

 

Yet you and I are responsible for nearly 7,000 post (mine the greater number). 

 

In (our) defence, the posts are often in response to questions, and you've certainly been able to help folk. 

[johnarcher]

Mike has hit the nail on the head re: time being a critical thing. I would also add ability into the mix. Most railway modellers are rather more time constrained in their hobby interests than Tony seems to be. Very few seem able to match his prolific output. Real life (12 inches to the foot) tends to get in the way for most, I suggest. Work, family, disability, other important commitments all impact on hobby time and modelling capacity. So RTR makes model railways accessible to the majority within the hobby. This inevitably switches the modelling focus more onto building the railway environment than stuff with wheels, but better to use this shortcut than have a pace of progress that becomes wholly discouraging.

 

What Tony et al achieve is exemplary, but is simply unattainable for the majority for very practical reasons. That’s actually what makes his stuff so special!

 

Phil

Of course time is critical - but not necessarily always in the RTR direction. If you have to have a close to scale main line station with a good variety of stock, you're not starting it as a lifetime project in early youth, you're not part of a cooperative team  and you can't turn out a 4-6-2 of exemplary running qualities between lunch and dinner as Tony seems to then the use of RTR seems unavoidable. On the other hand if your main aim/priority/pleasure is in actual model-making it's always possible to decide on something simpler (branch, 2 or 3 locos) that can be wholly or mostly made. These things are a matter of choice I think.

I agree with your last sentence though.

Edited March 4, 2018 by johnarcher