RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted November 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 20, 2012 If anybody has all the back issues of Model Rail.I seem to recall that there was a large GWR layout with all the locos fitted with battery power & RC controlled.Sadly,I no longer have my pile of magazines but I think Chris Leigh is a some time contributor to these forums,perhaps he may remember the article. Cheers,Ray. Probably you mean this one from the Model Rail Index. http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/ModelRail Year Issue Page No. Title Short Description Scale Period Era Category 2000 18 April 8 Hallgates - Radio controlled 'OO' A large layout (40' x 20') with an unusual approach to operating technology and interesting scenery. Also note a superb station overall arch glass roof-GWR 4mm 00 1935 3 Layout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Based on conversations in the Simon Kohler interview thread the following was suggested: This discussion about battery power is taking the thread rather off topic - perhaps you could break it out into a new thread ? So here it is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 From the Simon Kohler interview thread, the following posts on this topic were made: (Hopefully I have collected them all.) I believe the future for model railways lays battery powered radio controlled locomotives. As this would enable anyone to have a wire free model railway. I discussed this with Simon at the Kernow model railway exhibition a few years ago but he just didn't see the potential See the 2012 innovation competition page for all the reliant arguments. I think that would be great; (but obviously the controller manufacturers wouldn't). No wires, No worries about track joints, no reverse feeds; plonk the track down & run your trains. Exactly, No wiring , no track cleaning Track work as complicated as you like All no problem. I still see a market for the controller manufacturers though; because the only difference between dcc today and battery powered radio controlled locos of the future is that the loco would receive its dcc 'instructions' via a radio link rather than through the rail, while the loco would be getting power from the on board battery . In fact the current crop of controllers could still be used albeit with an additional radio circuit. How many people are put off having a model railway or have to compromise they one they have because of the wiring that is involved, It is so obvious that this has to be the next step for rtr loco's, especially if you want to encourage the younger generation into the hobby Since you say that you see a market for controllers then the same can apply for track. We can still use steel rails etc. Only difference is that we wouldn't need to keep cleaning it and what not. And obviously we may still require point motors an all that. I have to say I disagree, many have enough issues getting a DCC decoder to fit inside a loco, imagine trying to get a battery in there. Couple this with the fact that battery technology just doesn't have any longevity, meaning that you would need a new expensive battery after a year of running... No I think battery powered model trains would not be a good idea, atleast not in H0/00 and smaller scales... J The chassis in a model loco is just a solid block of metal and has two functions 1. to a provide an electrical connection between the pick-ups and the armature and 2. as weight to aid traction. The chassis could be completely replaced by a chassis shaped battery, which could be designed to accommodate room for the obligatory dcc pcb or dcc chip. The battery in my cell phone lasts for around a week and is in constant use, How long are your operating sessions? Having to charge your loco would add to the realism of operation, as your controller could have a fuel gauge which showed you how many miles your loco could go before the need to refuel, then you drive the loco onto a 'wired' section of track by a fuelling point where the loco could charge from the rails. Modern battery's last for a number of years these days, but just as you would change the battery in your phone or tv controls why not replace the battery in your loco once every couple of years, the amount of money and time you would save in not having to wire any track (except a charging road) would be more than beneficial to the cost of an occasional new battery. I bought a radio controlled helicopter off Amazon for £25, so this is not new or expensive technology Of course if people wanted to continue to use their 'wired' locos there is nothing to stop them, but as we all march towards that signing on point in the sky we will be replaced by a younger generation that will expect such simplicity as radio control One thing that hasn't been mentioned is radio frequency allocation. There are finite limits on 'channels' (or whatever they are known as nowadays). There is no way of increasing that bandwidth. Imagine the chaos at Warley if everyone was using trying to use radio control.at the same time. This wouldn't happen for the same reason that when someone rings your mobile only your mobile rings and not everyone else's as well, Sorry if some feel this has gone off topic, but I thought we were discussing the future direction of the industry/hobby and this is an avenue that I feel is well worth exploring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglian Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Well yes, I think it will come in time. I must admit I really like the idea. You could have a layout with mechanically operated points and signals and battery powered trains… What happens with tunnels and back scenes etc do the locos run on the last RC signal they receive or will they still pick up a the RC signal even if there isn't a direct line of sight? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 The battery power question in smaller scales is an intriguing one. Battery technology is improving all the time. We are not limited to the existing form factors for alkaline batteries. Advantages: No track cleaning* No track wiring* No block isolation required No complex point wiring required No problems with reverse loops Easier implementation of block detection for train control automation using non-isolating metal wheelsets * Assuming track metals are not used for block detection Potential Disadvantages: It's different and not as compatible with our current infrastructure How large and how heavy a rechargable battery is required for 'enough' hours of operation before a recharge? Do small motors have the torque to pull a heavy battery - particularly up a gradient when current draw required will be much higher? Would a semi/permanently-coupled battery van/coach be required, particularly for small steam locomotives? (A small battery could be integrated into any 00 model for shunting type operations.) How is emergency stop implemented - particularly in case of loss of RF signal, failsafe shutdown or wicketkeepers gloves / catchers mitt? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 What happens with tunnels and back scenes etc do the locos run on the last RC signal they receive or will they still pick up a the RC signal even if there isn't a direct line of sight? Unless you built the tunnel as a faraday cage - like using a chicken wire mesh - radio signals will work in tunnels on a 00 model. There might be some loss of signal but it shouldn't matter. In all cases of digital control, the last signal recieved is the set point. They could be programmed to an automatic fail safe in the case of loss of control signal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 It's prototypical for some industrial railways - and at Scunthorpe there are a number of black spots! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Sounds like a plan that could be taken forward in time, everything else seems to be going wireless these days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anglian Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 No doubt in time you could drive from your iphone/ipad. I think there's now an app for flying mini RC helicopters using a smart phone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
decauville1126 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 A recent Model Railway Journal (within the last two or three issues I think) featured just this system of radio control, using kit supplied by a company that makes electronic gadgetry for the 304.8mm:1ft system. Again, like dcc, there seems to be quite an initial outlay and the article does not gloss over the fact that, in 4mm scale, getting the power source battery into a tender is a tad tight. But it does show some possibilities. I think there was something operating this year at Expong at Swanley as there were chaps pointing long aerials at things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Well yes, I think it will come in time. I must admit I really like the idea. You could have a layout with mechanically operated points and signals and battery powered trains… What happens with tunnels and back scenes etc do the locos run on the last RC signal they receive or will they still pick up a the RC signal even if there isn't a direct line of sight? As Ozexpatriate has said this should not prove to be to much of a problem, after all you car radio or mobile phone works quite some distance in a tunnel before cutting out Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 The battery power question in smaller scales is an intriguing one. Battery technology is improving all the time. We are not limited to the existing form factors for alkaline batteries. Advantages: No track cleaning* No track wiring* No block isolation required No complex point wiring required No problems with reverse loops Easier implementation of block detection for train control automation using non-isolating metal wheelsets * Assuming track metals are not used for block detection Potential Disadvantages: It's different and not as compatible with our current infrastructure How large and how heavy a rechargable battery is required for 'enough' hours of operation before a recharge? Do small motors have the torque to pull a heavy battery - particularly up a gradient when current draw required will be much higher? Would a semi/permanently-coupled battery van/coach be required, particularly for small steam locomotives? (A small battery could be integrated into any 00 model for shunting type operations.) How is emergency stop implemented - particularly in case of loss of RF signal, failsafe shutdown or wicketkeepers gloves / catchers mitt? Another advantage is that you could replace your locos one at a time, because you would be able to run your radio controlled/battery powered locos on your current layout albeit with another controller. Unlike when you convert from dc to dcc which more often than not has to be done in one big expensive hit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Hi No, it has no future, ( except where it is already in use, ie Garden railways) other than as a side show or forum topic. It' s over engineering and has no tangible benefit over what exists today that would make it commercially viable. If this was not the case, we would already be using it today, it is hardly new technology. Regards Kal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 after all you car radio or mobile phone works quite some distance in a tunnel before cutting out Even with smaller powered radios, a few inches of expanded polystryene foam and a layer of plaster has a very different radio transmission characteristic than a steel-reinforced concrete tunnel lining and a hundred feet of earth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 No, it has no future except where it is already in use Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger440 Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 I think its a great idea. When can i buy some locos? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kal Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Yawn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold LH&JC Posted December 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 7, 2012 Speaking with some experience of battery locos in 16mm scale, the problem is getting batteries powerful enough to power the loco while been small enough to fit in the body. While my smallest loco can be powered without R/C gear by 2xAAs it needs a powerful battery pack for R/C which has to be put in a support wagon, considerably reducing it's haulage capacity. While a 00 R/C might be possible in the bigger locos or MUs I don't think we'll see any R/C Pugs or J72s any time soon. But who really knows what will be around in railway modelling in 10 years time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 From a simple technological stand point, I do not think that battery powered OO locomotives is a cost effective solution. A cell phone battery may last a week on stand by, but connect that up to a loco motor, and see how many minutes it lasts for. My phone battery is 3400mAH in capacity, at 3.6v. The loco next to me has a decoder that allows it to pull upto 0.8A at 12V. Convert the lot to Watts, we get a 9.6W motor in the loco. While the battery contains 12.24Watt Hours, Meaning that the battery in my phone could drive the loco at full tilt for 76 minutes. *BUT* The capacity of a battery when it comes out the factory, vs it the capacity that it is a year later is not even close. Said phone battery gave me over a days use when I bought the phone, but these days I have to charge it up by the evening. Now taking the hypothetical situation that each loco is largely built around a custom made battery chassis that is designed for that specific loco, and that the battery has a finite life before it needs to be replaced, You start to get to the position where you have to fork out every year or 2 for a new battery. The replacement battery for my phone is about 20-30 quid. And this of course assumes that Hornby/Bachmann etc... continue to make the batteries you need for your loco forever... So, to summarize, I do not feel that there is any real mileage in the use of batteries as you suggest in the powering of Loco's in H0/OO scales. This is all before we get to the practicalities of using radio to control loco's in the house. Please note, the use of Sealed Lead Acid batteries in large scale garden railways does have some sense to it, largely relating to the different technology being used. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 Easier implementation of block detection for train control automation using non-isolating metal wheelsets It would have the potential to allow a very prototypical arrangement for signalling I don't think we'll see any R/C Pugs or J72s any time soon. That was a point discuss in MRJ - if you could arrange the system in a small tank loco, then it would have real potential. Yawn Cheer up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julia Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 No doubt in time you could drive from your iphone/ipad. I think there's now an app for flying mini RC helicopters using a smart phone. You already can drive a loco from your phone. Take JMRI, a suitable interface, a suitable command station and an evening of geekery, and you can set things up to use your phone as a cab to control your trainset. Doesn't require battery powered loco's to do this, it's already available with current DCC technology. J Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Nth Degree Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 This is a nice idea, but there are a number of contradictions to the technology and it's application. Firstly, battery technology for this application is not quite there yet. Somebody made an analogy with radio controlled helicopters - these things weigh only a few grams so that a low power motor can lift it for a length of time. Can you imagine the usefulness of a loco weighing a few grams? The typical duration of an electric helicopter flight is around 15 minutes. If you put a bigger battery in, it weighs more so you need a more powerful motor, which draws more current. Put a bigger battery in and the weight/power/endurance triangle plays again. Current battery technology would see a tank engine running for only a few minutes - there simply isn't the space inside the body for a larger density energy storage. So that would suggest a shunting layout, maybe? If you wanted to shunt for any length of time you would need a bigger loco, but a big tender loco or type 4 diesel is not the nimblest thing to shunt a few wagons. Battery chassis is a good idea but will be quite expensive to produce, plus there is a lot of weight and space overhead in the body to contain the cells. However, after saying all that, I do actually like the idea! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Flying Pig Posted December 7, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 7, 2012 So here it is. And very nice it is too, but not a new idea and it's been discussed numerous times before on RMweb - not least on a thread started within the last month. Sorry, Oz, but frankly I think that's recent enough to continue rather than start a new thread. Please use the search function. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
StuartM Posted December 7, 2012 Share Posted December 7, 2012 If it is not beyond the wit and wisdom of man to get a radio controlled machine to operate on Mars then it shouldn't prove to difficult to do the same thing with a model railway engine in your spare bedroom and if Hornby can shrink an actual real live steam engine into 00 then anything is possible. Solution mode people Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted December 8, 2012 Share Posted December 8, 2012 And very nice it is too, but not a new idea and it's been discussed numerous times before on RMweb - not least on a thread started within the last month. Sorry, Oz, but frankly I think that's recent enough to continue rather than start a new thread. Please use the search function. Simon, I apologize for the redundancy, but I never noticed the thread you mentioned until you provided a link. A suggestion was made to split this emerging discussion from the Simon Kohler interview thread. Look at post #54. Andy hit the like button, so I did - admittedly without a thorough enough search. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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