Bakewell - Peak District Line BR - Layout Views

[Alister_G]

Thanks Bodgit, Hope you're recovered from the weekend

 

Continuing the cattle dock.

 

First, here's a couple of shots taken in daylight this afternoon. If you compare with the last photo of the previous construction post (Not "Robert's Urinal !!!") you can see how different the colours look depending on the light.

 

 

 

The task for this evening then, was to build the cattle pens on top of the dock.

 

I wasn't at all sure I could manage to scratch build this effectively, and did consider buying one of the ready made items which various manufacturers make.

 

However, I thought I'd have a go, first, and if it was rubbish I could sneakily chuck it in the bin with nobody the wiser!

 

I didn't even know what to make the pens out of, at first. Photos of the prototype suggest at least in later years that the cattle pens were made of precast concrete sections, see here:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index129.shtml

 

but frankly I thought that looked clumsy and ugly, and whilst easy to model, would probably look wrong.

 

Instead, I chose to build the pens out of "angle Iron" and "scaffold pole" which is what I remember the old cattle pens being like in the old cattle market in town when I was a boy.

 

So I started with some "L" shaped 4mm x 4mm evergreen strip:

 

 

and cut a number of lengths for my fence supports:

 

 

Now this being 4mm, that's equivalent to angle iron a foot on each side, which is not a likely size for a fence post, so I trimmed each short length so that it was roughly 1mm in each dimension - equivalent to 3 inches - still a bit big, but liveable with to my mind.

 

For the "scaffold pole" or, at any rate, tubular steel, I used 1mm round rod:

 

 

And, measuring up using the dock base as a guide, I decided where gates would be, and built the fence sections by simply gluing three lengths of rod between each angle iron support, trying as best I could to keep each run level, and parallel.

 

The end result was this:

 

 

I then took an offcut of 1mm pasticard, and cut a thin strip off one long edge, and cut it into small bits to build some gates:

 

 

Here are the two side gates completed:

 

 

When all the fence sections and gates were done, I placed them on the dock for a trial fit, and to take some photos:

 

 

 

Not stuck down yet, as I want to paint the bits individually before final fitting.

 

I'm surprised at how well this turned out, and I'm fairly happy with the results, however I would welcome comments and advice before I go much further:

 

Do you think it looks right?

 

Should I have stuck with the prototype concrete fencing?

 

Is it likely that a cattle dock would have this kind of pens?

 

Please help me make up my mind before I paint and stick it all together.

 

Thanks very much for looking,

 

Al.

[Andrew P]

Looks Bodge on to me Al, but what would I know, I made mine for Trebudoc and when George saw it he ripped it off, threw it in the bin and made one like yours, so it must be right.

 

Bodgit

[ChrisN]

 

Do you think it looks right?

 

Should I have stuck with the prototype concrete fencing?

 

Is it likely that a cattle dock would have this kind of pens?

 

Please help me make up my mind before I paint and stick it all together.

 

Thanks very much for looking,

 

Al.

 

Al,

I shall reply but I am usually wrong.  I think your choice is correct in not going for the concrete structures because, a) they are ugly, and B) they would look as if you had made them up and could not be bothered to do a proper job no matter how much you said 'but I have a prototype!' .I googled 'cattle dock' images and most were unhelpfully from model railways which I suppose tells you a lot about how our railway system has changed.

 

I have to admit that any cattle dock I have seen in real life would be from a market and I am fairly certain that they had scaffold poles but further than that I am not certain, except that the spacings between uprights was probably 4-5 ft. 

My first look at yours said to me that it looked fine but needed more uprights and this picture would prove my point http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/cattledock/interesting/  it is the one right at the bottom but there are others on there as well.  This one does have wooden/concrete posts so is not the same design.  The size of your uprights looks about right.

 

I notice that Andy has given his thumbs up as I write so you may not wish to change it.

 

May I finish by saying the base looks superb.

Edited August 19, 2013 by ChrisN

[Jason T]

I'm with Chris here; more uprights but otherwise fine.

 

The gates look a tad chunky; I'd be rebuilding them with thinner strip.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

[Alister_G]

Al,

I shall reply but I am usually wrong.  I think your choice is correct in not going for the concrete structures because, a) they are ugly, and B) they would look as if you had made them up and could not be bothered to do a proper job no matter how much you said 'but I have a prototype!' .I googled 'cattle dock' images and most were unhelpfully from model railways which I suppose tells you a lot about how our railway system has changed.

 

I have to admit that any cattle dock I have seen in real life would be from a market and I am fairly certain that they had scaffold poles but further than that I am not certain, except that the spacings between uprights was probably 4-5 ft. 

My first look at yours said to me that it looked fine but needed more uprights and this picture would prove my point http://www.flickriver.com/photos/tags/cattledock/interesting/  it is the one right at the bottom but there are others on there as well.  This one does have wooden/concrete posts so is not the same design.  The size of your uprights looks about right.

 

I notice that Andy has given his thumbs up as I write so you may not wish to change it.

 

May I finish by saying the base looks superb.

 

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you very much for your comments, and for the link in particular. Like you, I tried googling "Cattle Dock" and mostly got back images of other models.

 

Those photos of Highley Station in your link are great though, and just what I was trying to achieve, and I agree with you that I need more uprights - I also think I need another row or two of bars, as mine are too far apart.

 

Thanks again, much appreciated.

 

Al

[Alister_G]

I'm with Chris here; more uprights but otherwise fine.

 

The gates look a tad chunky; I'd be rebuilding them with thinner strip.

 

Cheers,

 

Jason

 

Cheers Jason,

 

I looked at it this morning on my way out to work, and my first thought was: "those gates look rubbish!"

 

Thanks very much for your comments, I agree with both you and ChrisN that more uprights are needed, and I will consign the gates to the bin and start again this evening.

 

Thanks mate,

 

Al.

[ChrisN]

Al,

I always feel a bit bad when telling someone who has made a perfectly acceptable model that it could be improved especially as I have never built a cattle dock but as you are looking to change it just some more thoughts.

 

After I posted I googled 'Cattle Pen' and got, surprise surprise, pictures of real cattle pens and most of them, no all of them were fairly sturdy with lots of uprights.  Cows are big animals and if they kick off which they might if they are frightened need some containing.

 

I also had another look at that link, and apart from noticing that they had taken the most forlorn picture of Chelmsford station that you could possibly get, honest it's not that bad, I looked again at those cattle docks and noticed two things.  Firstly they were in smaller pens which begs a question.  Did they put cattle into pens only large enough for one truck?  I would not like to be the railwayman who stood at the gate stopping a mass of cattle squeezing onto a truck when it was full.  I do not know the answer or where to look without spending, hours, days, weeks, months..... looking at old pictures.  There may be someone knowledgable on the web who knows.

 

Secondly, the bracing bars on the gates go the wrong way.  I was convinced you were right and the picture was wrong but on looking at lots of others I realised the picture was right.  (I once read a whole article by someone going on about how modellers got this wrong.  He finished by saying that things were so bad people did it wrong in real life as well!  However, I think back in the day craftsmen knew which way was up.)

[Alister_G]

Secondly, the bracing bars on the gates go the wrong way.  I was convinced you were right and the picture was wrong but on looking at lots of others I realised the picture was right.  (I once read a whole article by someone going on about how modellers got this wrong.  He finished by saying that things were so bad people did it wrong in real life as well!  However, I think back in the day craftsmen knew which way was up.)

 

My only excuse is, I was tired M'lud.

 

I also noticed this, this morning. Good thing they're not stuck down or anything

 

The irony is I remember recently having just this discussion on George T's thread. 

 

Just for anyone else's benefit, the diagonal bracing bars on wooden gates and shed doors should run from the bottom of the hinge side to the top of the unhung side.

 

This makes a triangle shape which supports the weight of the gate / door, and (because the diagonal is in compression) is the strongest, and correct method.

 

The only exception to this rule is the metal reinforcing often found on level crossing gates. Steel / iron are stronger in tension than in compression, and therefore the tie bars on level crossing gates run from the top of the hinged side to the bottom of the unhung side.

 

</rant>

 

Cheers Chris.

[Jaz]

Well I liked the first attempt, but can see that the points made all have merit. The pictures, as usual say a thousand words, and if you plan to change it now is a good time. There are always exceptions to prototypical (quickly ducks in case of flying stones) But when a person asks for advice it is because that is what they want, and luckily for you the responses were forthcoming and useful. I personally like it when people offer advice and particularly links or photos to support their case. Being quite new to this hobby (only a couple of years) and having no reference point at all, I know I make mistakes, and am happy for people to point them out. So that I can consider addressing them. In fact I often ask for help and get little or no response so have to muddle through. So I think it's nice people offer up opinion for consideration. Here there is definite merit. You have been able to change before completion, and we all know you are likely to put a great colour spin on it.

 

 

(..................so come on get a move on..........   )

[Alister_G]

Well I liked the first attempt, but can see that the points made all have merit. The pictures, as usual say a thousand words, and if you plan to change it now is a good time. There are always exceptions to prototypical (quickly ducks in case of flying stones) But when a person asks for advice it is because that is what they want, and luckily for you the responses were forthcoming and useful. I personally like it when people offer advice and particularly links or photos to support their case. Being quite new to this hobby (only a couple of years) and having no reference point at all, I know I make mistakes, and am happy for people to point them out. So that I can consider addressing them. In fact I often ask for help and get little or no response so have to muddle through. So I think it's nice people offer up opinion for consideration. Here there is definite merit. You have been able to change before completion, and we all know you are likely to put a great colour spin on it.

 

 

(..................so come on get a move on..........   )

 

 

Hi Jaz, thanks.

 

Like you, I'm very much a newcomer to this modelling malarky, in fact I'm much newer to it than you, as I really only got going in April this year. I am therefore more than happy to accept advice and criticism from anyone who will offer it.

 

Although I was reasonably happy with what I did last night, when I'd finished I was aware that it was not right, and I would not have been comfortable to paint it, glue it and slap it on the layout as it stands. This forum is amazing in that when you ask for help, 9 times out of 10 you will get it, and as you say, not just informed opinion but evidence to back it up as well.

 

I will be making the changes suggested tonight, and will post plenty of photos as usual. I can't promise it'll be painted though, I've got a few work related things to do as well.

 

I'm going as fast as I can, honest

 

Cheers,

 

Al

[MikeHemmings]

A photo of my cattle dock but not yet completed, mike

[Alister_G]

Excellent, thanks Mike.

[David C]

Looking at the flickr site mentioned above, the photos are all of cattle docks on ex GWR, GER and LSWR lines. Each pre grouping company had its own particular design (or indeed, designs) - is it worth trying to track down what Midland Railway prototypes were like? Even if there are no photos of the dock at Bakewell, there must be photos, if not actually drawings, available somewhere. I don't model the Midland (although I'm toying with the idea of doing so), so I'm unable to suggest any sources. However, it might be worth looking at the books by the late David Jenkinson. There's also a book on the Settle & Carlisle which contains lots of drawings of structures which might have information on MR type cattle pens.

 

David C

[C&WR]

Loving your work a lot - I'm new to the thread. On the cattle dock side I'm way too young (OK, 40s) to remember the real thing in action, but my Father offered the following tips as he does remember them being used:

• The dock would be divided into smaller pens on top.
• The dock floor would have drain holes.
• Don't forget some water troughs.
• Track round the dock was generally concreted not ballasted and had drain holes so the ordure falling from the trucks could be washed away.

Obviously I can't say if he is correct, but he spent most of his childhood and then all his working life round railways! I will be building my dock from hand-scribed brickwork when I get round to making enough of the stuff up.

 

BTW also really liked your use of scrap track to get sleepers for building structures. Here's what I came up with:

 

 

 

 

 

 

Obviously I'm nowhere ear your level, and I still like kits, but it's great scratchbuilding!

Edited August 20, 2013 by C&WR

[David C]

Just found a photo of an MR cattle pen in Bob Essery's "Train Shunting & Marshalling for the Modeller". The prototype is at Derby (photo taken in 1909) and consists of fence posts with 5 bars made of planks which I would guess are about 3" x 1". The gaps between the bars are uneven: the lowest (which is just above ground level) is only about 4-5" below the next (2nd from bottom). The 3rd from the bottom is about 6-7" above whilst the gap between it and the remaining 2 bars is approx 8-9" and 10".

 

The other thing to remember is that if there is more than a single pen, the gates should line up with the doors of cattle wagons so that more than one can be loaded/unloaded at a time.

 

Hope this helps.

 

David C

[LNER4479]

The Hudson book, p.109, has a Bakewell view which includes the cattle dock. The cattle dock experts are right regarding additional uprights; however the gates appear solid(!) and there's three in all (ie the pen had capacity to load up to 3 vans simultaneously)

*edited to tie in with above post which was sent concurrently

Edited August 20, 2013 by LNER4479

[Alister_G]

Looking at the flickr site mentioned above, the photos are all of cattle docks on ex GWR, GER and LSWR lines. Each pre grouping company had its own particular design (or indeed, designs) - is it worth trying to track down what Midland Railway prototypes were like? Even if there are no photos of the dock at Bakewell, there must be photos, if not actually drawings, available somewhere. I don't model the Midland (although I'm toying with the idea of doing so), so I'm unable to suggest any sources. However, it might be worth looking at the books by the late David Jenkinson. There's also a book on the Settle & Carlisle which contains lots of drawings of structures which might have information on MR type cattle pens.

 

David C

 

 

Just found a photo of an MR cattle pen in Bob Essery's "Train Shunting & Marshalling for the Modeller". The prototype is at Derby (photo taken in 1909) and consists of fence posts with 5 bars made of planks which I would guess are about 3" x 1". The gaps between the bars are uneven: the lowest (which is just above ground level) is only about 4-5" below the next (2nd from bottom). The 3rd from the bottom is about 6-7" above whilst the gap between it and the remaining 2 bars is approx 8-9" and 10".

 

The other thing to remember is that if there is more than a single pen, the gates should line up with the doors of cattle wagons so that more than one can be loaded/unloaded at a time.

 

Hope this helps.

 

David C

 

The Hudson book, p.109, has a Bakewell view which includes the cattle dock. The cattle dock experts are right regarding additional uprights; however the gates appear solid(!) and there's three in all (ie the pen had capacity to load up to 3 vans simultaneously)

*edited to tie in with above post which was sent concurrently

 

Hi David C, and Robert.

 

Firstly, thanks very much for your comments, they are most welcome.

 

There are photos of Bakewell's cattle pens, but mostly from 1968: this one on the disused stations site is I think, the same as the one in Bill Hudson's book:

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/b/bakewell/index129.shtml

 

As I said in my original post, and as ChrisN commented, they look horrible, and if modeled correctly would probably draw comment that they were not prototypical, even though they are, so I cast about for something which wouldn't look out of place but was more aesthetically pleasing.

 

The photo that you reference, David C, would it be this one?

 

http://www.nrm.org.uk/ourcollection/photo?group=Derby&objid=1997-7397_DY_9162

 

I've also searched a few others out on the web this afternoon (what else are work computers for?)

 

http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/midlandrailway/h51AB7E48#h51ab7e48

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrth1302a.htm

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/lms/lnwrrm2617.htm

 

These are all Midland or LMS in origin.

 

They all appear to be of timber construction, but as you can see, they vary wildly in style.

 

I think I'm going to stick to my basic construction (it seems a pity to chuck it all away), but I will modify it as already suggested, and also add separate, smaller pens: one per wagon as you both suggest.

 

Thanks again,

 

Al

[Alister_G]

Loving your work a lot - I'm new to the thread. On the cattle dock side I'm way too young (OK, 40s) to remember the real thing in action, but my Father offered the following tips as he does remember them being used:

• The dock would be divided into smaller pens on top.
• The dock floor would have drain holes.
• Don't forget some water troughs.
• Track round the dock was generally concreted not ballasted and had drain holes so the ordure falling from the trucks could be washed away.

Obviously I can't say if he is correct, but he spent most of his childhood and then all his working life round railways! I will be building my dock from hand-scribed brickwork when I get round to making enough of the stuff up.

 

BTW also really liked your use of scrap track to get sleepers for building structures. Here's what I came up with:

 

 

Obviously I'm nowhere near your level, and I still like kits, but it's great scratchbuilding!

 

 

Hi C&WR,

 

Thank you very much for your comments, and thank you to your dad for his information as well, that is really useful and I will be incorporating his ideas in the build.

 

I think you do yourself a disservice, by the way, as I have looked at a couple of your threads and there is some excellent modelling on there which puts mine to shame

 

And I really love your buffer stop, that's excellent.

 

Thanks very much

 

Al

[LNER4479]

 

There are photos of Bakewell's cattle pens, but mostly from 1968: this one on the disused stations site is I think, the same as the one in Bill Hudson's book:

 

The Bill Hudson pic is dated 1957. It's a more general view of the north end and the cattle dock is only part of the picture. But it does show it from the other side (ie where the gates are). From the north end, it's configured as two panels - gate - two panels - gate - two panels - gate. Assuming yours is condensed, then you might want to consider say a two gate version?

[ChrisN]

Al,

The next thing you need to do is research cows for your area and era if actually are going to put some in as the breeds changed over the years. Of course, life is short and there may be more important things to do. (I was going to add a smiley nodding but they have stopped working for me)

[C&WR]

Cheers, Al, I'm still a bit shy about putting my stuff on here. Ultimately it's all just to update my childhood railway for my lad!

 

While it's out of your area my Father has an excellent book of GWR architecture-they standardised an awful lot so it covers everything from terminus stations to light brackets. Will see if there's anything in that for inspiration!

[Alister_G]

The Bill Hudson pic is dated 1957. It's a more general view of the north end and the cattle dock is only part of the picture. But it does show it from the other side (ie where the gates are). From the north end, it's configured as two panels - gate - two panels - gate - two panels - gate. Assuming yours is condensed, then you might want to consider say a two gate version?

 

Ah, I'm sorry Robert, I haven't seen that one. I don't have my copy of Bill's book at the moment, so couldn't look.

 

I'm going to try and fit in 3 pens (and therefore 3 wagons) as the original, see below.

 

Al,

The next thing you need to do is research cows for your area and era if actually are going to put some in as the breeds changed over the years. Of course, life is short and there may be more important things to do. (I was going to add a smiley nodding but they have stopped working for me)

 

Right, I'll add to the list - must research cows!

 

To be honest, I'm not sure about adding livestock etc to the layout, dunno whether I will or not, yet.

 

Cheers, Al, I'm still a bit shy about putting my stuff on here. Ultimately it's all just to update my childhood railway for my lad!

 

While it's out of your area my Father has an excellent book of GWR architecture-they standardised an awful lot so it covers everything from terminus stations to light brackets. Will see if there's anything in that for inspiration!

 

Thanks mate, that would be great.

 

Cheers,

 

Al

[ChrisN]

Al,

I only said that as someone somewhere else said that he had an exhibtion layout and one person spent ages looking at it and his only comment was "The cows are the wrong colour!"  Good eh!  The Polly (Southern42) asked a question about types of cows that should be on Camel Quay.  It is whether you want to go into that much detail.  Even if you did I'm sure someone would say, "That's not the right shape for a Staffordshire Black!"

 

Me, I'm modelling Wales so I'll stick to sheep, can't go much wrong there.  (Ducks behind sette.)

 

And my smilies are working again

[Alister_G]

I haven't been able to spend long on the model tonight, so here's a few photos of what I have managed to do.

 

Firstly, I built some new gates to replace the ones I did yesterday.

 

As Jason and others commented, they looked a bit heavy, so I've made them out of smaller strip cut from 10thou plasticard.

 

The top two are the ones from yesterday, the lower four are the new ones:

 

 

Here's an overall view of my cutting mat, showing the chaos as I dismantle and rebuild the fencing. I don't usually work quite as messily as this

 

 

Finally, two views of where I've got to tonight.

 

I have now built the pens as three separate enclosures, each sufficient for the contents of a single wagon, and each communicating with each other to allow the livestock out and down the ramp through the large gate at the end.

 

The pictures show the various fence elements placed on the dock, to give an idea of the final configuration:

 

 

 

Again, I would welcome your views.

 

I'm still not convinced I'm going the right way about this - that is, by using tubular steel fencing. It seemed like a good idea at the time, and I know I could paint and weather it to look suitable, but would it be right?

 

Maybe I should scrap it all and redo it in wooden fencing, as the various photos further up this thread show.

 

Thanks for looking,

 

Al

[ChrisN]

Al,

It is looking fine to me.  Well thought out about the three pens and how to get them filled with cows.  Silly question, but I always ask them, you do have the dimensions of your cattle trucks?

 

As for the poles, although my memory does not go back to the fifties, well not for cattle pens, but id do remember metal poled cattle pens.  I googled 'Cattle Pens 1950' and come up with mostly wooden ones, but one in Boston Lincolnshire being knocked down and this one in Cornwall with metal poles http://www.helstonhistory.co.uk/history-around-helston-town/old-cattle-market/

 

About the right era, wrong place and not on a station but there is a prototype.