Whats on your 2mm Work bench

[bradfordbuffer]

6 hours ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Hmm, well I have remained silent until now. 

 

The Association has been ordering the mainstream items produced by me for them directly now, and you see these available (there are still an awful lot). Location in the Netherlands (don't mention Brexit to me) not an issue in this case. The items disappearing are largely (such as certain wagon underframes) those which were not originally Association items, but done by me as one-off edition sales. As such they were done on sheets of artwork that combined several types, which gave the maximum profit (I hope I shock no-one by mentioning that word). A previous chief shopkeeper (initials SS) asked as a favour if the shops could stock them temporarily, which I helped him with. The definition of temporary did become rather elongated shall we say. But temporary it remained.

 

The pre-group bufferstops now marked WSL were done in this way (multiple types on a sheet) as sales were expected (and turned out to be in many cases) rather low. And there were even rumblings in certain quarters as to why we were filling Shop 1 with such obscure items. Given they do not generate the kind of revenue that other items do - they use a larger amount of metal than a typical loco chassis but only sell for a couple of quid - the sales numbers required to produce a dedicated sheet for each type would run into multiple decades before the investment were returned, if ever.

 

But the most common reason for items disappearing is that Association members simply don't purchase them in anything other than insignificant amounts. The BR CCT, GWR Toads and GWR Mink vans as an example, the shop has the capability to produce and sell them, but does not do so. Their time has simply run its course. And the committee has indicated that shop items do have to pay their way. It seems it is only when the magical WSL appears next to items members discover just how vital they are to their (modelling) life. I am witness to this given I have still boxes of etches at home that no-one ever asks for any more, and yet if I were to announce their discontinuation doubtless there would be expressions of regret.

 

Chris

You could say it's the end of the line for the buffers!...

I feel your pain 2mmers! As a 3mmer seems prity much same as any other....not for profit club /society!...not to mention services provided by members who quite selfishly pop off to marshalling yard in sky....if you don't horde ...you loose....

New products will sell well then drib and drab there way for years all this stuff takes up room in someone's garage

Hence the society for 2d modellers! 

[Chris Higgs]

14 hours ago, 2mmMark said:

Looks like I'll need to do the same.  Seems odd to be discontinuing a item that's quite tricky to scratchbuild and yet easy to get produced.

Perhaps it can be passed across to a retailer, as happened with DG couplings.

 

 

DG couplings sell in quantities I could only ever dream of.

 

Chris

[Sithlord75]

12 hours ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

It seems it is only when the magical WSL appears next to items members discover just how vital they are to their (modelling) life. I am witness to this given I have still boxes of etches at home that no-one ever asks for any more, and yet if I were to announce their discontinuation doubtless there would be expressions of regret.

 

Chris

 

What's in the boxes?  I'd be interested in a second Quad-Art at least.  But I don't know what your back catalogue looks like.

 

Cheers

Kevin

[2mmMark]

Thanks for the useful insight into the workings of the Association shops, it helps to better understand the situation.  The Association punches well above its weight for a relatively small organisation that will inevitably have a low regular demand for products.  Perhaps a good marketing ploy would be for items which will be slow movers to enter the shop as "WSL" from day 1!  I guess we're still the worlds biggest stockholders of FR2 0.8mm PCB!

 

[2mmMark]

13 hours ago, Kylestrome said:

 

That reminds me – it's the right time of year to watch "Life of Brian" again ("what did the 2mm Scale Association ever do for us?") 😀

"All I said was that etched buffer stop was good enough for Jehovah!"

[justin1985]

On 12/04/2022 at 16:34, 2mm Andy said:

 

....apart from four types of Easitrac plain track, the new Finetrax point kits (and the Easitrac point kits before them), a wider range of rolling stock wheels than ever before, a new range of loco wheels, a range of 3d printed loco and wagon details, a wide range of cast brass wagon buffers, a range of conversion chassis and components and etches for N gauge locos, drop-in wheels for Farish diesels, a range of etched coach bogies, assembly jigs for turnouts and point rodding components (i'll stop there as this is starting to sound like a scene from a Monty Python film....😆)

 

Sorry I wasn't clear I was specifically thinking of wagons - obviously there have been some huge developments in other areas. And very clearly no intention of diminishing the work of the volunteer team. I know from comparable commitments in other areas of my interests how difficult it can be to balance the competing pressures of costs and 'public service'. 

 

On 12/04/2022 at 15:46, PaulCheffus said:

In my case a photo has come to light that shows a full rake of BR fitted Plate wagons which I wasn’t aware of when that particular etch was available in the shop. I have one but could do with another fifteen. In hindsight I should have bought more when they were available but didn’t think I needed more than one at the time.

 

This is exactly what I was thinking of. We'll all find things that we realise we could really use only after the event. Either because new research, new plans, or whatever. Not to mention new members joining in future ...

 Doesn't that somewhat justify slow selling things (other than those obviously obsolete or duplicated) as a kind of "communal gloat box"? 

 

Perhaps if sales of a particular etch are too poor to justify reordering, how about the artwork is offered on the same basis as the "3D file exchange"? If you saw a particular need for something that had been discontinued, you could get your own sheet made, include what you need on a sheet of your own etch design etc. Like open-sourcing the source code of an obsolete piece of software - it might take work to use it, but at least it's out there.

 

On 12/04/2022 at 14:32, Chris Higgs said:

 

I am witness to this given I have still boxes of etches at home that no-one ever asks for any more, and yet if I were to announce their discontinuation doubtless there would be expressions of regret.

 

Chris

 

What do you have available, Chris? I can't find any listings online.

 

 

[A. Bastow]

1 hour ago, justin1985 said:

Perhaps if sales of a particular etch are too poor to justify reordering, how about the artwork is offered on the same basis as the "3D file exchange"? If you saw a particular need for something that had been discontinued, you could get your own sheet made, include what you need on a sheet of your own etch design etc. Like open-sourcing the source code of an obsolete piece of software - it might take work to use it, but at least it's out there.

 

An etch artwork exchange would be highly welcomed and I laud it as a brilliant idea. I'd even be willing to purchase the artwork for the L&Y stuff on behalf of the association to get the whole idea off the ground. 

[Chris Higgs]

10 hours ago, justin1985 said:

 

 Doesn't that somewhat justify slow selling things (other than those obviously obsolete or duplicated) as a kind of "communal gloat box"? 

 

 

Perhaps if sales of a particular etch are too poor to justify reordering, how about the artwork is offered on the same basis as the "3D file exchange"? If you saw a particular need for something that had been discontinued, you could get your own sheet made, include what you need on a sheet of your own etch design etc. Like open-sourcing the source code of an obsolete piece of software - it might take work to use it, but at least it's out there.

 

 

What do you have available, Chris? I can't find any listings online.

 

 

 

Someone has to administer that communal gloat box, without being paid. Stocktaking etc. still has to be done.

 

Artwork really isn't that easy to exchange. There is no standard format like there is with 3D-printing. I once included a simple item from David Eveleigh on one of my sheets and even though we had used exactly the same set of layers in our CAD (because it was David who had taught me how to do artwork in the first place) I ended up redrawing parts of it. If you have used a different CAD package you will find it very hard to mix and match. And then there is the choice of etcher. My artwork was drawn to be used at PEC (and works fine with them), PPD have seen the same artwork and told me many times I have drawn parts far too thin for them to etch. This is down to the two companies using different ways of etching the sheet (dipping in the etch vs spraying it). So it would all need redrawing.

 

In short, your idea sounds great, but that is all it is, it sounds great. In practice it would be a nightmare.

 

A combination of personal circumstances where I have more important things to address these days, and Brexit making it very inconvenient for micro-traders to operate  between the EU and UK, means I have no time to be supplying stuff any more. But as basically no-one had asked for any for a year or so before Brexit, I don't think there was much demand anyway.

 

As mentioned, the magic letters WSL seem to suddenly induce sales. So now you see why I always did my own products as limited editions. I would have hardly sold any if people had thought it was always going to be available to purchase.

 

 

Chris

 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Chris Higgs

[Chris Higgs]

8 hours ago, A. Bastow said:

 

I'd even be willing to purchase the artwork for the L&Y stuff on behalf of the association to get the whole idea off the ground. 

 

Why? The L&Y stuff is still available and not WSL. Knowing the details of the relevant artwork I can tell you it will not be disappearing anytime soon as it is on the same sheet as the LNWR underframes which sell much faster. The Association already have the means to order those items and will presumably do so as long as they consider it worthwhile.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Chris Higgs

[Argos]

Is not the issue that once an item is sold out in the Association shops it disappears from view?

 

Perhaps a list could be drawn up of artwork available  (maybe third party suppliers could also contribute?), that way if anyone wants a number of items (or a number of people want one) they can be produced in a small  limited run.

 

I appreciate this would would require some administration and the costs would likely increase, but it would prevent items disappearing from view.

 

I can't be the only one who has regretted missing out on a limited run etch while available? 

 

Please note the intent here is not meant in anyway to criticise the volunteers who make our hobby possible in 2mm scale. Their efforts are very much appreciated and valued!

[A. Bastow]

47 minutes ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Why? The L&Y stuff is still available and not WSL. Knowing the details of the relevant artwork I can tell you it will not be disappearing anytime soon as it is on the same sheet as the LNWR underframes which sell much faster. The Association already have the means to order those items and will presumably do so as long as they consider it worthwhile.

Hi Chris.

 

Last week the L&Y rail built buffer stop etches were WSL, which I think kind of snowballed to this current line of conversation. 
 

I’d like to echo others who have expressed their thanks to the people who make it all possible!

[Chris Higgs]

1 hour ago, A. Bastow said:

Hi Chris.

 

Last week the L&Y rail built buffer stop etches were WSL, which I think kind of snowballed to this current line of conversation. 
 

I’d like to echo others who have expressed their thanks to the people who make it all possible!

 

Oh sorry, I thought you meant the underframes! The bufferstops probably are WSL, although that does not tell you how many there actually are left.

[Chris Higgs]

2 hours ago, Argos said:

Is not the issue that once an item is sold out in the Association shops it disappears from view?

 

Perhaps a list could be drawn up of artwork available  (maybe third party suppliers could also contribute?), that way if anyone wants a number of items (or a number of people want one) they can be produced in a small  limited run.

 

I appreciate this would would require some administration and the costs would likely increase, but it would prevent items disappearing from view.

 

I can't be the only one who has regretted missing out on a limited run etch while available? 

 

Please note the intent here is not meant in anyway to criticise the volunteers who make our hobby possible in 2mm scale. Their efforts are very much appreciated and valued!

 

There are going to be a lot of these limited editions sitting in peoples gloat boxes and will never get built. That might be the easier way to find them. Small limited runs can actually add up to a lot of items to make it worthwhile doing. People probably don't realise how cumbersome etch production is compared to 3D-printing, where you just fire off an order to Shapeways (other suppliers are available), wait  a few days for the item and then repeat if it is OK. Or better yet, just print it at home on your computer.

[Yorkshire Square]

2 hours ago, Argos said:

Is not the issue that once an item is sold out in the Association shops it disappears from view?

 

Perhaps a list could be drawn up of artwork available  (maybe third party suppliers could also contribute?), that way if anyone wants a number of items (or a number of people want one) they can be produced in a small  limited run.

 

I appreciate this would would require some administration and the costs would likely increase, but it would prevent items disappearing from view.

 

I can't be the only one who has regretted missing out on a limited run etch while available? 

 

Please note the intent here is not meant in anyway to criticise the volunteers who make our hobby possible in 2mm scale. Their efforts are very much appreciated and valued!

 

The issue is not cost. While the Association doesn't have unlimited funds, there is not a great deal that it couldn't do from a financial perspective.

 

What we severely lack is time and that can only be generated by people stepping forward and giving their own time. The number of members offering themselves for whatever they might do seems to be at an absolute all-time low. Whether that is partly due to COVID or not, I'm not sure.

 

We all love the Central Shop. We all want to go nosey round it at Expos, Supermeets and AGMs. Jim Allwood has done sterling service with it for many years and is, quite understandably, wanting a break. Despite several requests in the Newsletter, not one single member out of 900 has even enquired as to what it might involve. Not a single one.

 

A solution is available, as I can take the Central Shop and remain Sales Officer, but I will have to relinquish my position of Chairman at the AGM as there are only so many balls I can juggle without being in danger of dropping the lot. Luckily we have a member who is willing to step up as Chairman having now gained some committee experience.

 

If you've missed out on limited run, contact the designer to enquire after a re-run, or contact me if you don't know who the designer is. But be prepared to pay through the nose - you might have to buy several full sheets to get the few etches you do want and be faced with a whole load of etches that you don't know what to do with.

[Argos]

6 hours ago, Yorkshire Square said:

If you've missed out on limited run, contact the designer to enquire after a re-run

 

Hi Yorkshire Square,

 

One of the problems is that you don't necessarily know what limited runs have been available or who the designer (or originator) was.

Clearly having everything available all the time is never going to be option, but access to past runs would useful (also recognising Chris's point about etches not just being a "press and print" production).

 

As an example I recently moved into modelling Irish Railways and was gifted an etch of GSWR J15 shot down from the 4mms kit, after a general enquiry I was gifted some more etches from various gloat boxes, however, had it not been for the generosity of another member I would never have known about the etches exitance (I am lead to believe it was produced in the late 1990s).

 

I also understand the point about time available. 

Edited April 14, 2022 by Argos

[-missy-]

6 hours ago, Chris Higgs said:

Artwork really isn't that easy to exchange. There is no standard format like there is with 3D-printing. I once included a simple item from David Eveleigh on one of my sheets and even though we had used exactly the same set of layers in our CAD (because it was David who had taught me how to do artwork in the first place) I ended up redrawing parts of it. If you have used a different CAD package you will find it very hard to mix and match.

Chris

 

 

Hi.

 

Sorry Chris but that is technically not the case. For 2D the common filetype is .dxf, for 3D its .step.

 

Julia.

[Caley Jim]

3 hours ago, Yorkshire Square said:

If you've missed out on limited run, contact the designer to enquire after a re-run, or contact me if you don't know who the designer is. But be prepared to pay through the nose - you might have to buy several full sheets to get the few etches you do want and be faced with a whole load of etches that you don't know what to do with.

I get the occasional request for some of my etched kits of which I no longer have any stock and for which it is not worth getting a full sheet of assorted items re-ordered.  What I do in these circumstances is ad the item to the next sheet of etches I prepare. I warn the prospective purchaser that the cost will be a bit more as this will be a 'one-off' sheet.  Also they have to wait until I'm doing some more etches!

 

I had the same problem as Chris when switching to PPD in that their minimum width is 0.3mm, though I have 0.25 wide etch OK with them.  I found I was having lots of problems with PEC, but that's another story.

 

Jim

[Chris Higgs]

5 hours ago, -missy- said:

 

Hi.

 

Sorry Chris but that is technically not the case. For 2D the common filetype is .dxf, for 3D its .step.

 

Julia.

 

As a raw format maybe. Except I use Turbocad (native format tcw), so the dxfs it produces are not the same as those from AutoCAD, particularly in regard to the fills. And besides that, dxf files may contain a completely different set of layers within them as specified by the designer, so combining those with work from other designers is non-trivial. I always send pdfs (over eps) to the etcher of the front and back to be sure I know what I am getting. 

 

For my 3D prints I produce an stl, and that should print the same just about anywhere. No worries on things like amounts of undercut.

 

So I don't agree with you. dxf is only in theory a common format. Not at the same level as stl.

 

Chris

Edited April 14, 2022 by Chris Higgs

[Chris Higgs]

17 minutes ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

As a raw format maybe. Except I use Turbocad (native format tcw), so the dxfs it produces are not the same as those from AutoCAD, particularly in regard to the fills. And besides that, dxf files may contain a completely different set of layers within them as specified by the designer, so combining those with work from other designers is non-trivial. I always send pdfs (over eps) to the etcher of the front and back to be sure I know what I am getting. 

 

For my 3D prints I produce an stl, and that should print the same just about anywhere. No worries on things like amounts of undercut.

 

So I don't agree with you. dxf is only in theory a common format. Not at the same level as stl.

 

Chris

 

Oh, and don't forget there are people out there doing etching artwork using  non-CAD packages such as Corel or Adobe Illustrator.

 

Chris

[-missy-]

1 hour ago, Chris Higgs said:

So I don't agree with you. dxf is only in theory a common format. Not at the same level as stl.

 

Chris

 

Thank you Chris.

 

I must remember to tell this to the other engineers I work with then, when I am back from the Easter hols!

 

Julia 😛

[-missy-]

1 hour ago, Chris Higgs said:

 

Oh, and don't forget there are people out there doing etching artwork using  non-CAD packages such as Corel or Adobe Illustrator.

 

Chris

 

Which both export in .dwg and .dxf format unless I am mistaken?

 

Julia.

[Michael Edge]

Our etches go to PPD as .eps, this is also the format we send to Phillips for film printing, the films then go to PEC, all drawings are produced originally with Turbocad.  PPD frequently warn than something is below tolerance, even though I know it has already been fine from PEC - I usually say to go ahead anyway and it's nearly always right. I should say that most of what goes to PPD are test etches, production work is almost all with PEC.

[RichardBenn]

12 hours ago, -missy- said:

 

Which both export in .dwg and .dxf format unless I am mistaken?

 

 

The cut down "Home" version of Corel Draw does not export to these formats, but is otherwise very capable for etch drawing (provided it is not used commercially).

 

Richard

[PaulCheffus]

36 minutes ago, RichardBenn said:

 

The cut down "Home" version of Corel Draw does not export to these formats, but is otherwise very capable for etch drawing (provided it is not used commercially).

 

Richard

Hi

 

I am still using a very old version of CorelDraw (only runs on XP) and would be interested in the details of this home version.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Michael Edge]

45 minutes ago, RichardBenn said:

 

The cut down "Home" version of Corel Draw does not export to these formats, but is otherwise very capable for etch drawing (provided it is not used commercially).

 

Richard

Does it export to .eps? If so that's an easier way to go as I said above.