Crompton-hauled Redhill-Reading services

[Nearholmer]

At the time, the only loco hauled train through to Tonbridge arrived mid-evening, and my regular trip was later than that - sometime after 2100 from Croydon, IIRC. I think the 6S/L more likely.

 

K

[bécasse]

There was certainly at least one permanently declassified ex-FK from a 6S unit around as it was used to replace an SO written-off after the Hither Green accident. IIRC the unit concerned was often used as a donor for carriages required to temporarily make up other units to full strength and could be found running as a sort of 4L/4S hybrid. It certainly turned up on the Hastings-Ashford service from time to time and could well have stood in for a 3-R, although it may be that there was an evening Redhill-Tunbridge service which was rostered to be worked ex-the Hastings line roster.

[Gwiwer]

The 3R "Tadpole" units were formed of ex-6S short "Hastings" driving motor and trailer open second coaches coupled to an ex-2EPB driving trailer second.  The compartments were always and only in the "wide" ex 2-EPB coach.

 

There were some reformations of Hastings units both after Hither Green and for other operational reasons (such as the over-provision of buffet cars against demand) meaning there were at times some strange formations.  Those units featured a compartment trailer first some of which did become declassified but were never used in "Tadpole" units.  For much of their lives 1031 and 1032 which were built as standard 6B units ran as non-standard 6L units with one or two short trailers including a compartment second.

 

There have been regular diagrams for 6-car Hastings units on the "Tadpole Railway" at times though usually confined to the Tonbridge - Redhill section. They were too long to fit in the platform at Reading when sharing it with a Waterloo service.  There have also been temporary 4-car formations though few lasted any length of time given that the stock working was based around 6-car units on the main line and 3-car units elsewhere.  A 4-car unit was considered different enough that it required special instructions to train crew and would often have been kept of a particular diagram to avoid overcrowding and problems arising if a crew were unfamiliar with the formation.

 

The very occasional use of a 3D (Oxted line) unit on the route would have produced first class compartments in the middle of the centre car and to which passengers might have been permitted access for a second class fare as no first class was advertised.  Those units made rare and unplanned trips usually as emergency replacements for a failed Tadpole as they could often be whistled up at short notice from Tunbridge Wells West for a changeover at Tonbridge.  

[Reading General]

On perhaps two occasions i witnessed a 6 car DEMU at Reading (once on top of 8 cars of electric stock in platform 4a, which caused a bit of consternation!) Probably on another two occasions or so I saw a East Sussex unit at Reading.

 

As far as compartments go, the Hampshire units originally featured a single compartment behind the cab of the driving trailer. (may only have been the Berkshire variant...not sure

[DavidB]

The 3R "Tadpole" units were formed of ex-6S short "Hastings" driving motor and trailer open second coaches coupled to an ex-2EPB driving trailer second.  The compartments were always and only in the "wide" ex 2-EPB coach.

 

There were some reformations of Hastings units both after Hither Green and for other operational reasons (such as the over-provision of buffet cars against demand) meaning there were at times some strange formations.  Those units featured a compartment trailer first some of which did become declassified but were never used in "Tadpole" units.

I hesitate to contradict Rick, for whose knowledge and insights I have a healthy respect, but unit 1206 is recorded as having been reformed in 1980 with a compartment trailer first that was downgraded to a composite with 2 first and 5 second class compartments. Michael Welch records it as operating on the Reading - Redhill route until May 1981, when it moved to the Ashford - Hastings route (a photo appears in Brian Morrison's enjoyable if erratic 'British Rail DMUs and Diesel Railcars' album. If the dates match, could this have been the mystery unit?

 

David

[Nearholmer]

Well DavidB, the span of my evening classes was from 1976, to 1980, so we might have .

 

I used to travel Croydon to Eridge, and only took the loopy route via Redhill and a Tonbridge if I just missed a direct train, and the weather was cold ...... Because the loopy route provided a warm and reading-friendly way of wasting the time that would otherwise have to be wasted waiting on a cold platform.

 

Perhaps the compartment coach only materialised a few times, but stuck in my mind. That is definitely a better explanation than that I am suffering false-memory syndrome.

 

Thank you, Kevin

[Gwiwer]

I hesitate to contradict Rick, for whose knowledge and insights I have a healthy respect, but unit 1206 is recorded as having been reformed in 1980 with a compartment trailer first that was downgraded to a composite with 2 first and 5 second class compartments. Michael Welch records it as operating on the Reading - Redhill route until May 1981, when it moved to the Ashford - Hastings route (a photo appears in Brian Morrison's enjoyable if erratic 'British Rail DMUs and Diesel Railcars' album. If the dates match, could this have been the mystery unit?

 

David

 

 

Thank you.  I am always happy to stand corrected on matters of historical record.  My hard-copy historical records are incomplete as it wasn't practicable to migrate the entire collection from Cornwall to Australia when I moved out.  Memory isn't always as accurate as we might suppose.  I don't have any recollection of this particular formation however nor do any of my extant records refer to it but I am the first person to say "I don't know it all."

[brushman47544]

Ah 1980/81/82, the university years...explains why I wasn't aware that 1206 was reformed being a regular user of the line between Deepdene and Guildford to school before and work after !

[brushman47544]

Two more at Redhill:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/6012063607/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138063305@N03/25109578113/

 

Don't think the first is a mail train with headcode 88. Much more likely mailbags being loaded into the PMV when the passenger sets had one.

[Nearholmer]

Ah!

 

You can almost hear the gravelly tick-over, and smell the drifting diesel fumes.

 

Looks to be a GUV/CCT/PMV directly behind the loco in the second photo, which is something I don't recall.

 

K

[bécasse]

Two more at Redhill:

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johnmightycat/6012063607/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/138063305@N03/25109578113/

 

Don't think the first is a mail train with headcode 88. Much more likely mailbags being loaded into the PMV when the passenger sets had one.

 

Definitely not a mail train as there is a "NEXT TRAIN" board being displayed which, although difficult to read, seems to show "Reigate, Guildford, Reading" just as one would expect for head code 88.

[Reading General]

Ah!

 

You can almost hear the gravelly tick-over, and smell the drifting diesel fumes.

 

Looks to be a GUV/CCT/PMV directly behind the loco in the second photo, which is something I don't recall.

 

K

 

loco hauled trains on this route were pretty much always 3 mk1s and a PMV and carried a lot of mail....thus  a mail train in that sense. We used to help the staff out at Reading loading and unloading.

 

I believe that platform 3 was used to form mail/parcels trains for Basingstoke and Platform 10 for the Guildford line, with much exchange of traffic and vans taking place at Reading

[Nearholmer]

Were the PMVs detached/attached at Redhill?

 

I ask, because is used to see the trains at Tonbridge, and I recall them being three coaches, with the mail bags in the BSK, which was the middle coach.

 

K

[Peter A Hall]

Just came across this topic whilst looking for something else. Looks like the OP's question has still not been fully answered so hopefully this will help. 

 

Until May 1977 the locomotive hauled passenger trains on the route had been:-

 

06:46 Reading - Redhill M-S

18:41 Redhill - Tonbridge M-F

17:07 Reading - Redhill M-F

23:26 Reading - Guildford M-F

 

07:02 Tonbridge - Reading M-S

07:42 Tonbrdge - Redhill M-F

16:40 Redhill - Reading M-F

19:45 Tonbridge - Reading M-F

 

During the 1977/1978 timetable only the following remained:-

 

18:41 Redhill - Tonbridge M-F

22:04 Redhill - Tonbridge M-F

 

07:42 Tonbridge - Redhill M-F

19:45 Tonbridge - Redhill M-F

 

They utilised Hither Green based Class 33's.  The passenger sets were Mark I TSO+BSK+TSO air-braked.  Most trains also conveyed an additional van for mail/parcels.  Several SR 4-whl PMV's were air-braked and used on these trains although in later years BR GUV's replaced them.

 

Edit 30/10/17.  See later post.  Disregard the comment "although in later years BR GUV's replaced them".  I now believe this to be incorrect unless anyone knows otherwise.

[Peter A Hall]

Suspect Nearholmer was not dreaming as he travelled home late in the evening from Redhill.  Pulled the 1976 Station Summaries off the shelf.  This shows the 23:17 Redhill - Tonbridge being formed of a 3D (Oxted) set.  Its previous working being the 19:34 Eridge - Redhill. 

 

The centre car of a 3D having First Class compartments.

  

In subsequent years through is shown as a 3R working, it having previously worked the 20:05 Parcels from Reading,  

[Peter A Hall]

Were the PMVs detached/attached at Redhill?

 

I ask, because is used to see the trains at Tonbridge, and I recall them being three coaches, with the mail bags in the BSK, which was the middle coach.

 

K

The Station Summaries for the 1975/1976 Timetable show all trains I listed as conveying '1 G.U.V. (EA)' throughout, but the 1976/1977 edition does not show any conveying a van. 

 

I suspect that until May 1976 all trains conveyed one of the SR 4-whl air-braked PMV's which were then withdrawn.   

 

Although the G.U.V. description is used the reality was that only 4-whl PMV's were ever used.  This corrects my post above.

[Nearholmer]

Re 65:

 

It wasn't a 3D; I'm convinced it was a Tadpole with an unusual centre car.

 

I spent so much of my life on board 3Ds at that time, that I would have know straightaway if it was one of them, and I am pretty certain that I never caught the 2317 off of Redhill, because I don't think it had an onward connection to Eridge.

 

There were 'odd' workings of DEMUs though, diagrams that took them away from their normal beats. I think I referred earlier to the Hastings unit that used to come to Eridge at about 0700, then go to Tonbridge and onwards to Edenbridge, returning as the school train.

 

Re 66:

 

Hmmmm ........ I used to see the evening train from Reading arrive at Redhill well before 1976 (71 onwards probably) and honestly don't recall a van. I still suspect that, diagram irrespective, it often dropped the van at Redhill, which would make sense if there were lots of bags to handle there, and the Tonbridge load could be concentrated into the BSK ( including using locked passenger compartments, with the seat cushions turned up).

 

Now that DCC and sound are so good, it does get awfully tempting to build a DEMU-and-Crompton themed layout, but somehow I don't think it would capture things quite correctly.