Tigermoth Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Perhaps the next EMU might be accurate too and not require surgery, additional parts and yet more postage. ...Quite right too. If there are problems with this product i for one would like to see them discussed ! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 So what is the good and bad about this product, was it rushed out too quickly, what do people think ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 So what is the good and bad about this product, was it rushed out too quickly, what do people think ? A really great model I am very happy with it and I thnk most people will agree! XF 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) So what is the good and bad about this product, was it rushed out too quickly, what do people think ? Hardly 'rushed out too quickly' according to what I have heard. I know somebody who supplied a lot of information and photographs, including some drawings (of which I don't know the provenance), plenty long enough back for them to have been taken into account in the design process. The 2BIL pot has been simmering at Margate for a number of years with various internal and retailer requests for it so it has hardly jumped out of a boil-in-the-bag process of design, unless changes of manufacturer and a need to reduce costs has had an influence. PS I have no connection whatsoever with Modelzone apart from occasionally browsing their shelves and even less occasionally buying something but I'm getting a little fed up with the way they are being mentioned as some sort of retailer which has had special treatment. It's been said here before and should hardly need repeating that as far as various of us can work out Modelzone are a Hornby concession site and the Hornby product they sell is put into their shops by Hornby and is Hornby's property until sold. The sales policy which has been adopted for the 2BIL appears to be one devised solely by Hornby - it might possibly reflect the fact that there are limited quantities of product, it might represent something else, it might be an experiment in realising optimum retail prices, but whatever it is only Hornby know and as yet (if ever) they aren't saying anything about it. Edited February 24, 2013 by The Stationmaster 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) So what is the good and bad about this product, was it rushed out too quickly, what do people think ? First of all, I do understand Hornby's desire for secrecy when announcing new products. Going back a few years, they planned to do the 4-CEP, but news of this got to Bachmann via a Hornby employee (very soon thereafter, I understand, to be an ex-Hornby employee), and the ever-combative Graham Hubbard quickly re-arranged that particular bit of history, despite Bachmann development and production periods every bit as long, if not longer, than Hornby at that time. (Hubbard also upstaged Kohler over the Hall, leaving Hornby with its excellent but less popular Grange.) The upshot was that Simon Kohler, still wanting to do an 'express' EMU, did the VEP. Kohler's fixation with fanciful express stock and large locos continues unabated, hence the 5-BEL. It was the wrong move in my opinion. The smart move, even then, would have been to have gone for the 2-BIL straight away (it consistently rated highly in the polls). Had that happened, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now, and we would have had a 2-BIL at a higher spec, and probably cheaper too. In that light, the 2-BIL has not been rushed out too quickly, because it was already five years too late. Clearly, the 2-BIL had been in development for some considerable time before its public announcement in December 2012. The downside of Hornby's secrecy is that they seem happy not to consult anyone, and obvious and elementary mistakes can slip through. Chief amongst these is that Hornby assumed the prototype had two drive bogies. If they'd only asked... Edited February 24, 2013 by Miss Prism 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Could someone who's got a BIL tell me what the lateral distance is between the centres of the collector shoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I have longed after a good model lof a 2BIl since I got my first Triang Southern EMU in the ealry 1960's and even as i child I could see it was not quite accurate!. I am as happy a a pig in the preverbal with my 2 BIL and no one on this thread is going to spoil my fun! XF 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Above all, what is needed is a fair objective discussion, the good points and the bad, or is that asking too much ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted February 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2013 I have longed after a good model lof a 2BIl since I got my first Triang Southern EMU in the ealry 1960's and even as i child I could see it was not quite accurate!. I am as happy a a pig in the preverbal with my 2 BIL and no one on this thread is going to spoil my fun! XF The Tri-ang Southern EMU in the early 1960s was never intended to be a 2Bil. It it was anything it was a Sub, with several compartments missing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Budgie Posted February 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2013 Could someone who's got a BIL tell me what the lateral distance is between the centres of the collector shoes. 32 mm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miss Prism Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 32 mm. Hells bells, that's not what I was expecting. What do the mag reviews say about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 The Tri-ang Southern EMU in the early 1960s was never intended to be a 2Bil. It it was anything it was a Sub, with several compartments missing. And a BR stanard coach profile, but for a young boy it did the job! XF Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 In terms of quality, yes the EPB did come out on top but with the BIL there seems to be a certain shyness in discussing finition and dimensions etc, making any comparison with the EPB for the moment, impossible. Not everyone is obseesed with accuracy to the millimeter for a model that is 4mm to the foot running on 16.5mm track - as we do have a life! XF 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) Hi Andy, I had not seen that 2BIL kit before - thanks for the link. I hope Mr Snowsill is happy to have his product used in a negative comparison! Re. telling manufacturers what they should do. I have also been guilty of 'crossing the line' : Last year at DEMU, told the Hornby rep. that they should do a 2 BIL (and a 2 HAL to boot). Some questions come to mind: Are there degrees of should do? Is comment on fiscal policy sacrosanct? Hey, Hornby are big enough to dismiss the comments they don't agree with aren't they?! All the best, Colin But you only told Hornby they should do the 2 BIL because you wanted one yourself, LOL ! Edited February 24, 2013 by Tigermoth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigermoth Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Hi Tigermoth, I am one of those who has evidently been obsessively and compulsively commenting on some aspects of the 2 BIL since December in a quite unacceptably disorderly fashion! Comparison with EPB impossible? The Bachmann EPB: It has one failing in that the motor bogie housing encroaches on the open saloon in the motor (ised) coach. The 2 BIL: Wrong bogie on the trailer coach outer end, 'handrails' (complete with knobs) masquerading as lighting conduit runs on each roof which do not match their moulded-on counterparts (on each roof), wrongly shaped guard irons on motor bogies, over-size shoe beams. I could offer opinions on other details and the way the have been designed on either model, but let's just stick to the facts. All the best, Colin No! Colin Good, i totally agree with all that, nothing but the facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I had not seen that 2BIL kit before - thanks for the link. I hope Mr Snowsill is happy to have his product used in a negative comparison! It's certainly not intended as a negative comparison but merely to highlight the alternatives available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted February 24, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 24, 2013 The problem is the thread which should be about the 2-BIL model and prototype (and there have been some very nice contributions and links to prototype video and images on this thread for which many thanks) has got lost in amid a mire of arguing about Hornby's supply policy, a debate that should have been taking place elsewhere. Anyway I am not in too much of a hurry for my 2-BIL's just yet as I haven't yet built the stabling sidings. I have made a start though, I have made the sign to go up on the site: Need a green 2-EPB to go with it really. Would I be right in assuming that a 2-EPB and a 2-BIL were not compatable in terms of coupling and multiple working? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2013 Need a green 2-EPB to go with it really. Would I be right in assuming that a 2-EPB and a 2-BIL were not compatable in terms of coupling and multiple working? You would, sadly. EPBs had buckeyes and electric actuation of the brakes, which came on at the same time throughout the formation. BILs had a screw coupling and straight air brake. No hope of coupling in service, I'm afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted February 24, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2013 You would, sadly. EPBs had buckeyes and electric actuation of the brakes, which came on at the same time throughout the formation. BILs had a screw coupling and straight air brake. No hope of coupling in service, I'm afraid. Were they not drop heads? If so an EP unit perhaps ought to be able to tow a 2BIL and the air hose is at a convenient height for coupling??? If not possible then perhaps a coach as a communicator? Just thinking. Cheers Griff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 PS if it wasnt for people like Colin Parks eg (someone who's work I admire) who do know something about what their talking about I personally wouldnt have noticed the trailing bogie or roof conduit mounts(?) were wrong but pointing out the faults with something which could be beneficial for poeple like myself who dont know or even the Manufacturer and being angry because Modelzone had them first are totally different. I agree Colin's work is amazing and he obviously a perfectionist (nothing wrong with that) , he talks from a position of knowledge and strength. There are however those who do not truly aspire to those standards but like to be somewhat negative. I make no bones about of the fact that I am just an average modeller and happy to receive constructive criticism, however the key thing is that I am most of the time I am happy with what I achieve and if others like or dislike it, so be it! The armchair manufacturer brigade can be both amusing with ignorance of business and commerce, as well as annoying at times for their arrogance, however if it makes them happy, it's job done in their world! XF 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metadyneman Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 I have had the opportunity to give my 2-BIL a good "stretch of the wheels" out in the garden today (yes it was cold but not inside my nice warm shed). I am well impressed with the smooth running of this fine unit. I tested it on the main line for 30 minutes each way then it ran shuttle services on the branch until dusk. Having no lights inside it was a bit much to expect my passengers to sit in the dark so the epb took over from dusk! I can see this unit is going to be a most useful addition to my line. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted February 25, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2013 Were they not drop heads? If so an EP unit perhaps ought to be able to tow a 2BIL and the air hose is at a convenient height for coupling??? If not possible then perhaps a coach as a communicator? Yes, the buckeyes would drop. The air hoses I am less confident about, but maybe. Southern was not awash with spare coaches. Note I said "in service" and while all the things you suggest might be available at a depot with competent M&EE people to make the join, traffic department staff were absolutely not allowed to try and join units with different bits and pieces. Thus I can say with absolute certainty that a 2-BIL and a 2-EPB never, ever, ran in a passenger service together. It also has to be said that they were never sharing the same services - BILs being semi-fast main line units, EPBs being suburban units which seldom left the London area in normal service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 25, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) 1930s SR EMU stock could not be coupled to and operated with anything more recent. It was possible to physically couple a Bil to an EPB but not to connect the jumpers. Screw couplings would have to be used with the buckeye dropped. The buffers would face each other and the EPB rubbing plate no hindrance but braking and control systems were entirely incompatibleWhen 2090 and 4732 were running shuttles eastwards from Brighton and the Sub failed on Falmer bank it was decreed that the Bil had insufficient power to shift the entire train. With no other units being able to rescue the failure a delay of a couple of hours ensued while a 73 was found, crewed and run via Haywards Heath and Lewes to buff up to the rear, screw-couple and push the train back to Brighton using only its 600hp diesel. The electrics could not be matchedThe units have not run since owing to the risk of such an event happening again and there being nothing at all able to help now Edited February 26, 2013 by Gwiwer 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mod6 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I've now removed most of the posts dealing only with delivery and distribution issues. This was requested in topic some time ago by (IIRC) John Upton, but we don't see every single post and it is much better to alert us by report rather than posting. Posts moved are now in the topic on Hornby gremlins here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/68354-Hornby-supply-and-demand-gremlins/. Some posts have been removed entirely as being redundant or in some cases just silly. If there are some I've missed then tough PM me if it really bugs you, but hopefully what is now left is on the model and prototype issues only. I've also merged the other model topic started by Oldlugger into this one. Further posts in this topic on deliveries etc are liable to be summarily deleted. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerces Fobe2 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Good bit of work - we can talk about the units now......................! XF 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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