Hornby Star Class

[7013]

At least give the video maker top marks for effort, he is obviously pleased judging by the "Absolutely brilliant" count, but hardly inspiring with the noisy motor and bent valve gear linkage and the other known irritants. I'm afraid that despite the generally superb looks it is more Railroad than Super Detail and should be priced as such.

[Mike Riley]

I think I have found the problem with lack of haulage capacity.  It's the same problem I had with the M7 and T9 - lack of vertical movement in the bogie.  Disassemble the bogie and there are two nibs on the top about 1mm high.  File those down flush and that provides some vertical play so when there is a slight dip in the track it doesn't lift the front drivers clear of the rails.  At least this was easier to solve than the M7 and particularly the T9.

 

Early reports suggest that Lode Star is the same as KoGC.  Glad I didn't pay the premium for that one.

 

Mike

[The Stationmaster]

THAT video clip.Hardly reassuring to those of us brave...or foolhardy enough to place an order,is it? Danny Boyle he is not.Distinctly tacky,I think

Unfortunately,though,what it does do is pose a number of awkward questions.Did I really put up a premium for this?

Then there is the question of its performance,posted yesterday.I am trying to be positive...but there ARE limits!

I agree - but I ordered 'Lode Star' very early on and I'm not really minded to be forced by Hornby into withdrawing a bit of financial support for Steam (who no doubt stand to make a lot of money out this loco if all of them sell, it's not just the extra tenner they're getting but also their trading profit).

 

Set against that tho' is a strong degree of disappointment due to a stupid inaccuracy (possibly with more to come to light?) and hints of poor build/assembly quality emerging in this thread in respect of the 'general market' version.  Hornby are coming over - in respect of these models - as their own worst enemy and we should not forget that the usual practice with Chinese production is for the UK purchasing 'manufacturer' to approve a model for mass production.  

 

This one is, much like the 8 coupled tanks, landing Hornby in a position which damages their reputation as far as 'higher fidelity' models are concerned - we're back to Frank Martin's comment about people not being happy with a detail and treating them as some sort of 'trainspotter' level joke.  Well if Hornby no longer think they're able to, or don't want to, compete in that market area that's up to them but it would make a big difference if they were to come clean about it.  

 

Some years ago someone at Hornby dismissed the emergence of commissioned models as something which wouldn't last, would see the commissioners going broke, and for which the market didn't exist - what he didn't seem to grasp was that they would be genuine competition for the high ground in r-t-r, the ground where people were prepared to spend more in order to get more.  On the other hand Bachmann, Dapol, and Heljan seem to think that market area is worth serving and that you have to be consistently good.  And presumably they have decided that business model works - who is right will no doubt come out in the wash as the old saying goes.

Edited November 5, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Oldddudders]

PS The Hornby photo of 'Knight of the Grand Cross' on the back side of the packaging shows 10 spoked bogies wheels. With regard to some recent remarks from Hornby might I suggest some photo editing for the next batch to get the facts straight....

Now, while we agree that the poor representation of detail probably doesn't contravene the Sale Of Goods Act, the fact that what is on the box is not the same as the contents just might?

[coachmann]

Had Hornby simply gone down this path without saying anything, folks might have been blaming the recession.  But when their PR merchant bragged about 'design clever' last year, he actually alerted us! Faced with continually improving Bachmann products, SK hasn't done his employer any favours. So when Hornby starts to get back to where it was from where it is now, it will be interesting to see who else joins the fallout from design backwards clever talk.

[bobwyer]

Sorry for delay after first post but family events had to take priority.

 

The chassis on Lode Star is, like KOGC, as straight as a die, bogie assembly removes with one screw, makes substitution of wheels easy and also frees up space for large thumbs to insert drain cock assembly.  Now, deign clever or what?  If you carefully remove front buffers by breaking the very thin glue line the resultant underlying hole take replacement brass Churchward taper buffers without any further fettling, glad I ordered more then I needed for the 42xx/72xx refurb  saga.

 

Tender brake handles are very, very fragile as are the whistles on Lode Star,, no protective whistle shield, good job Bachmann included brake handle spares in the COT set.  Just about to start drilling to fit cab side rails, the vertical rails look much better if some black ink is fed into the gap to visually isolate the moulded rail, probably simpler but I've several old bodies of various sorts to practice on first.  However, stand back a couple of feet and "distance adds enchantment"

 

Will try to get some pics tonight

[7013]

I suspect Hornby will cross the rubicon when the P2 hits the streets. They cannot have failed to have seen this thread and have remained very tight lipped thus far, I suspect there is either much scratching of heads or keeping them firmly buried in the sand. Either way for a hobby that normally prides itself on close and good manufacturer-customer relationship it does not inspire confidence. Simon Kohler has always been approachable even if he has the art of saying lots while revealing nothing finely tuned. When Dave Jones was at Dapol and Graham Hubbard from Bachmann learned of a problem the first thing they do is engage with the customers and keep them informed. Good customer relations are built on clear, open and honest communication not on sit tight and let it blow over. When Hornby were market leaders they may have got away with this kind of behaviour, unfortunately Hornby are no longer in that position and it's rivals are now producing equal and most times better models than they are.

If Hornby are to regain customer confidence and rebuild a good relationship then it is in their best interest to come clean and at least acknowledge that they have got the wheels wrong.

[Oldddudders]

When Hornby were market leaders they may have got away with this kind of behaviour, unfortunately Hornby are no longer in that position and it's rivals are now producing equal and most times better models than they are.

 

I suspect Hornby are still the market leaders by a country mile where volume and £ turnover are concerned. That is why they can afford to ignore the cries of those who take their products seriously. The shareholders wouldn't want it any other way.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I think I have found the problem with lack of haulage capacity.  It's the same problem I had with the M7 and T9 - lack of vertical movement in the bogie.  Disassemble the bogie and there are two nibs on the top about 1mm high.  File those down flush and that provides some vertical play so when there is a slight dip in the track it doesn't lift the front drivers clear of the rails...

 This lack of vertical travel is not unfamiliar in OO models, and something of a standing peril now that most RTR - including this model -  has moved closer to fine scale proportions. I would rather have this correctable glitch, than the loco body positioned a good 2mm higher above the driving axles centres than scale, which was the typical 'bad old days' fix.

 

...This one is, much like the 8 coupled tanks, landing Hornby in a position which damages their reputation as far as 'higher fidelity' models are concerned - we're back to Frank Martin's comment about people not being happy with a detail and treating them as some sort of 'trainspotter' level joke.  Well if Hornby no longer think they're able to, or don't want to, compete in that market area that's up to them but it would make a big difference if they were to come clean about it.  

 

Some years ago someone at Hornby dismissed the emergence of commissioned models as something which wouldn't last, would see the commissioners going broke, and for which the market didn't exist - what he didn't seem to grasp was that they would be genuine competition for the high ground in r-t-r, ...

Think they still have enough 'mindshare' in the UK rtr market not to worry unduly about the 10%  ( - any better number anyone? ) of the customer base that wants to see at least a match to and ideally progress from the best preceeding model. This model is still streets ahead of anything produced at Margate.

 

If it were my business, the strategy would be to keep the options open. I was in this sort of discussion in the circa 1990 downturn, translated into model railway product it might go like this: Right now, we have to cope with both a difficult trading environment and bringing on some less experienced manufacturing vendors. Some defeaturing is going to contain cost and make the situation more manageable. Obviously we will have to understand how the defeatured product goes down with the customers. If it still flies commercially, well and good. If it is clear that there are significant lost sales as a result of the defeaturing, then just as soon as one or more of the manufacturing vendors have the capability we will resume at the best previous standard we attained.

[The Stationmaster]

I suspect Hornby are still the market leaders by a country mile where volume and £ turnover are concerned. That is why they can afford to ignore the cries of those who take their products seriously. The shareholders wouldn't want it any other way.

That is probably correct Ian, and they are of course a key component of the hobby in the UK and possibly nowadays more widely but one more magazine review such as that the 8 coupled tanks received in 'Model Rail' and their reputation will begin to tarnish in a particular sector of the hobby.  Whether or not that will hurt them is debatable of course but there could well develop a situation where the money ceases to follow them as it goes to those producing higher fidelity detailed models.  Someone spending around £100 on a good quality tank engine is not going to work hard to save more than that for, say, a 4-6-0 with some slightly dubious features.  The impact of a squeeze on personal finance can work in more than one way.

 

So should Hornby decide they want to get back into hi-fi models (which they might as the availability of hobby money improves) they could find themselves facing an uphill struggle in that market.  We don't really know what will happen of course but it is far easier to lose a reputation than it is to build one - and all for the sake of a couple of pairs of wheels that they already have in their product line!

[rovex]

Hey just think in 50 days time we can all be moaning about how bad Hornby's 2014 models are going to be

Edited November 5, 2013 by rovex

[mow]

Hey just think in 50 days time we can all be moaning about how bad Hornby's 2014 model's are going to be

Perhaps there should be an RM clunker of the year award. 

[Oldddudders]

Hey just think in 50 days time we can all be moaning about how bad Hornby's 2014 model's are going to be

Sadly that is the opposite of what really happens. Hornby raises expectations, as do other manufacturers, by announcing mouth-watering goodies, and we all expect they will be built to a standard that is in line with others. Then the models appear - 4-VEP, GWR tanks and now Star - and the sound of disappointment is deafening.

[papagolfjuliet]

I think what we've learned from the Star, the tiny chimneys on the first batches of Scots and Patriots, the back to front tender underframes on the T9, and the funny shaped original Coalfish, is this: if you want a new Hornby model, don't buy it when it comes out. Wait a year.

 

Which ain't no way to run a business.

[tomparryharry]

C'mon Guys, you can't blame Hornby!

 

They see Electroen getting away with it, and think "why can't we?"

 

Tongue in cheek time.....

 

Ian

[knapper]

Now, while we agree that the poor representation of detail probably doesn't contravene the Sale Of Goods Act, the fact that what is on the box is not the same as the contents just might?

 

Not really, the picture of the back of the box is a photo of the loco on which the model is based. In no way could someone suggest they thought that was an accurate portrayal of the actual physical item they were going to get in the box. If the photo of the model on the front differed, which is a representation of what should be in the box, then that would be different.

 

I understand why some people are mainly using this forum to vent their frustration, but I do think things need to be kept in perspective, Obviously the model has some details that aren't done as well as people had hoped for, and it has what seems like a rather stupid error, but it is what it is. People have a simple choice, to buy or not to buy. One thing I would say is this though, if people do buy it and find manufacturing faults, and decide for whatever reason to fix them themselves, it would be helpful to make sure you contact Hornby about it. An email of complaint, or a post on their facebook page, explaining what was wrong and why you didn't return it, but instead fixed the problem yourself. This would mean Hornby could get a proper idea of just how many locos are actually being delivered with faults.

[G-BOAF]

I think what we've learned from the Star, the tiny chimneys on the first batches of Scots and Patriots, the back to front tender underframes on the T9, and the funny shaped original Coalfish, is this: if you want a new Hornby model, don't buy it when it comes out. Wait a year.

 

Which ain't no way to run a business.

I was once advised never to buy anything when it first comes out. Always to wait for second batches when glitches are ironed out.

That is very true in model railways.

 

In terms of 'first batch' errors:

Hornby Royal Scot chimney (corrected on second batch),

Hornby Class 67 finish prolems (seemingly corrected on second batch),

Bachmann A2 cab droop (corrected on second batch),

Hornby MN Smokebox Door (remember that - very odd shape, quickly corrected on the second batch),

Hornby Pullman coupling cam system that jammed (redesigned bogies and NEM pockets on later batches),

Bachmann O4 running plate over cylinder (sadly never corrected for (ex)LNER models, but rectified on new tooled GWR running plate).

Bachmann 9F (first release issued with Steam Heat valve and buffer beam fitting - correct location as modelled for a single preserved example - removed on subsiquent batches, but odd 'blank' inserted on buffer beam)

 

 

The only problem is that in today's 'batch/limited run' market, if the model you want is in the first batch (e.g. Blue Peter, Lode Star etc), then you're stuck, as they will likely not be repeated.

 

EDIT: a few more examples - may be getting a little OT.

Edited November 5, 2013 by G-BOAF

[Stevelewis]

I suspect Hornby are still the market leaders by a country mile where volume and £ turnover are concerned. That is why they can afford to ignore the cries of those who take their products seriously. The shareholders wouldn't want it any other way.

I dont  think  they  are  the  brand leaders,  one  retailer  said to me   that  the  ratio of  loco sales alone  is  about 3 to 4 other  'main' manufacturer to Hornby's  one

 

One of the  big   drawbacks  being  Hornby  just  dont  deliver  the  stock!

[The Stationmaster]

Not really, the picture of the back of the box is a photo of the loco on which the model is based. In no way could someone suggest they thought that was an accurate portrayal of the actual physical item they were going to get in the box. If the photo of the model on the front differed, which is a representation of what should be in the box, then that would be different.

 

I understand why some people are mainly using this forum to vent their frustration, but I do think things need to be kept in perspective, Obviously the model has some details that aren't done as well as people had hoped for, and it has what seems like a rather stupid error, but it is what it is. People have a simple choice, to buy or not to buy. One thing I would say is this though, if people do buy it and find manufacturing faults, and decide for whatever reason to fix them themselves, it would be helpful to make sure you contact Hornby about it. An email of complaint, or a post on their facebook page, explaining what was wrong and why you didn't return it, but instead fixed the problem yourself. This would mean Hornby could get a proper idea of just how many locos are actually being delivered with faults.

I quite agree - which is why I raised the question of the bogie wheels with Simon Kohler at Wycrail last Saturday )and I know that I was not the only person to do so but it was pointed out to me that he was sure Hornby was right and I was wrong.  Sorry to repeat it but he could have said 'we'll look into that and if there is an error we'll offer exchanged wheelsets etc, etc.....' but no, he simply said they were right and I was wrong.  And when I told him about my finding of a 40% faulty rate on 8 coupled tanks which I had either bought or hadn't bought because of such faults he pointed out that was an isolated case otherwise they'd have a pile of returned faulty locos at Margate and they haven't, and he didn't believe me that many purchasers fix the faults when they can and if they're fixable.

[Miss Prism]

Now, while we agree that the poor representation of detail probably doesn't contravene the Sale Of Goods Act, the fact that what is on the box is not the same as the contents just might?

 

The picture on the front on the box is another slice of Hornby photoshop fiction, and doesn't accurately represent what is inside the box. The differences are only of detail, and in themselves not particularly important, but it underlines to me that Hornby appears to find no mileage in pictures of its actual products these days, and indeed makes no effort to produce such pictures.

 

I am so looking forward to the annual farce of the new year announcements. (Insert appropriate smiley.)

[Waverley West]

I quite agree - which is why I raised the question of the bogie wheels with Simon Kohler at Wycrail last Saturday )and I know that I was not the only person to do so but it was pointed out to me that he was sure Hornby was right and I was wrong.  Sorry to repeat it but he could have said 'we'll look into that and if there is an error we'll offer exchanged wheelsets etc, etc.....' but no, he simply said they were right and I was wrong.  And when I told him about my finding of a 40% faulty rate on 8 coupled tanks which I had either bought or hadn't bought because of such faults he pointed out that was an isolated case otherwise they'd have a pile of returned faulty locos at Margate and they haven't, and he didn't believe me that many purchasers fix the faults when they can and if they're fixable.

 

That's symptomatic of Hornby's attitude in my experience too. 

 

Take their Inter-City pale grey - it looks horrible to virtually everyone's eyes except Hornby's it seems (it's been covered in a thread on here). Put a rake of Hornby Inter-City liveried coaches together and the effect is strikingly wrong. Yet Hornby claim it's accurate on the basis of the "RAL chart". So that's that. Never mind what it actually looks like and the horrible yellowy orange tinge. Compare it with both Railmatch's and Bachmann's versions and it's pretty clear which one is wrong.

 

Some years ago, I wrote a letter giving positive constructive criticism of my frustrating derailing experiences with Hornby's close-couplings on its diesels, explaining that as a result I had five Hornby Class 50s laid up in boxes (i.e. the best part of £4-500 worth). I suggested placing the coupling on the bogie instead to eliminate the problem. I also made some constructive suggestions about the Hornby 08, which I was having terrible trouble with due to stalling. I never did receive a reply. I don't expect Hornby to be waiting on my beck and call, but a long-standing customer with the problems I have experienced would at least warrant some form of response I think.

.

I'd like a couple of EWS 67s, but with all the quality problems I'm not going to touch one until I hear the situation has improved. I'd also like a Large Logo 56 but heaven knows when that will ever appear.

 

I'd love to see Hornby right its problems, but with the attitude that seems endemic in the company, it is hard to see them ever doing just that. I've had a few Hornby devotees jump on me for (reasoned and justified) remarks I've made about the company on occasions, but ultimately the only reason I have posted on the subject is that I want the company to succeed, like most others on RMWeb I should think.

 

My modelling covers the period late 70s - present day, yet Hornby is a virtual irrelevance to me and I find myself thinking instead how on earth I am going to afford all of Bachmann's forthcoming releases that cover my era.

 

It's such a shame, yet so many of Hornby's problems are self-inflicted due to their "there's no problem" approach.

 

Sorry, rant over. Hopelessly off thread. I've been watching this thread for some time as an interested passive observer to see whether Hornby could get it right this time, but so many of the experiences that have been mentioned have struck a chord with mine that I had to put in my two pennies worth. Most posters seem to want to buy Hornby products (naturally enough), yet many are put off for one reason or another. I certainly fall into that category.

 

Cheers,

Dave

Edited November 5, 2013 by Waverley West

[7013]

I suspect Hornby are still the market leaders by a country mile where volume and £ turnover are concerned. That is why they can afford to ignore the cries of those who take their products seriously. The shareholders wouldn't want it any other way.

Yes i am sure if you take all the arms of their business into consideration, however amongst the more discerning railway modeller (for want of a better phrase) I suspect they are now trailing a distant fourth, and are in danger of loosing credibility in that market if the P2 gets a similar panning.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I was once advised never to buy anything when it first comes out.

 

...The only problem is that in today's 'batch/limited run' market, if the model you want is in the first batch .. then you're stuck, as they will likely not be repeated....

 Being an idle beggar whose sole preorder to date has been the NRM/Bach DP1 (it had to be better than my kit build, and this is an essential Southern ECML circa 1960 item) I almost always follows this good advice. But have thereby failed to acquire a BR liveried GER shortie tender B17 which must have sold very quickly, and wondering when a few more might hit the shelves.

 

And of course, what the build will be like. Will it still match the first batch(es) and look as well as those I saw at Warley, and the other three of the toothsome quartet in my possession (B1, L1, O1)? In which case, firstly Hornby still have the manufacturing capability available (good news), and this part of Hornby's potential customer base will still be living in the happy land of Allcontent...

[Unknown Warrior]

Yes i am sure if you take all the arms of their business into consideration, however amongst the more discerning railway modeller (for want of a better phrase) I suspect they are now trailing a distant fourth, and are in danger of loosing credibility in that market if the P2 gets a similar panning.

 

The P2 is a different animal, it was always going to be "design clever" and even the special edition is going to come in sub £100 with discount. The sample I saw at Barrow Hill looks promising, the general shape seems right with a decent paint job. At the price it will probably be acceptable.

 

In most of our minds the Star was going to be a high standard model, hence our disappointment.

[Stevelewis]

Yes i am sure if you take all the arms of their business into consideration, however amongst the more discerning railway modeller (for want of a better phrase) I suspect they are now trailing a distant fourth, and are in danger of loosing credibility in that market if the P2 gets a similar panning.

But  surely  if  you  take 'all arms'  of  Bachmann's Business in model railways into consideration,  Hornby  would  be  a long  way behind,  not   trying to knock  Hornby  but  surely  they must  get  their  act  together quickly or the downward  spiral wil  continue

 

I hope they do get it together I have been a customer  for many years since  the  TRIANG - Hornby days!l