Hornby P2

[melmerby]

 

Bachmann's latest price increases put them well beyond the impulse purchase level for mist youngsters, and indeed many hard working families, so we are left with Hornby to answer that demand.

Maybe Bachmann should take Hornby's lead and have a "budget" range as well and not just those two starter locos either.

They could use some of the not upgraded ex Mainline stuff (if any of the tools still exist) and some of the older not released for ages items in simpler liveries.

 

Keith

[bigwordsmith]

@Keith - an interesting suggestion , but when I look at the performance of the new generation Bachmann steam locos compared to the old split chassis originals I know which I'd pay for.

 

That said, pif you're trying to get youngsters on tot he bottom rung why not - the tooling is undoubtedly paid for, so it would be good incremental revenue.

 

As a hobby we need to take care not to take it too seriously!  

[Express Blue]

I agree with bigwordsmith.  It is very easy to shout from the sidelines when you are not under the real pressure of actually sorting out the problems. 

This is a model railway forum, not a forum for investors wishing to make a profit from their Hornby shares. I don't know whether or not Expressblue is a significant shareholder, but I am sure as a shareholder, he would have means of obtaining information from Hornby other than press conferences, and would have a say in the running of Hornby proportional to his investment.

 

 

Talk about missing the point! I did not buy shareholding "to make a profit"  I was a decision of  heart over head to support a company I actually believe in rather than for any fiscal gain. Yes there are other sources I can look at and I can assure you none of them make pretty or encouraging reading at present. As it stands Hornby's future is neither in their own hands or the modelling community. Unless it can get back on track, at least having turned the corner and demonstrating some sound control of both supply chain and cash flow,then it is the City and the Banks that will have the final say. I don't believe the institutions will wait anywhere near 18 months  to see some signs of recovery.

 

My point is the management team need to restore credibility in the eyes of the model press, their retailers, the end user, their banks and the city.  By keep missing delivery targets and having to revise (downwards) cash flow forecasts is not the way for them to once again become a strong, viable company which I am sure is what we all want!

 

P.S. I am aware of the stresses and pressures of running a business. For 15 years I ran a large company, a Private Limited Company, owned by a family and with a significantly greater annual turnover than Hornby, even in it's best years.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Express Blue

[Legend]

I think there can be very few modellers (using term very widely as I run only rtr) that would not miss Hornby. They are part of the UK modelling scene and it would definitley be poorer without them. I wasn't carping at Hornby in previous post, but was pointing out that clearly this constant rescheduling meant that things were not yet resolved and I would suspect its at the factory rather than in shipping. While they cannot be fully in charge of their supply chain because they subcontract out manufacturing to China, it is to be hoped they can get better control, most companies have.Lets wish them luck with that. I bring in containers from China and they are never two months late, I have a week due date which sometimes is missed,but max only by a week. It is possible to source goods from China and know within 2 weeks when it will arrive, so this concept of a container getting loaded onto a Containership then entering a void is a bit spurious.

[Andy Hayter]

I can manage to enjoy this hobby without any of the rtr manufacturers and know of several others as well so to say the hobby needs Hornby is clearly incorrect.

 

I can understand that as the situation today when the rtr producers exist, but I wonder how things would turn out if they all decided the UK market was not worth the hassle that a few seem to want to deal out here.

 

How many kit manufacturers depend on a groundswell of models who having rtr, then decide to dip a toe in the water and try a kit - and then continue down that vein?

And if they decide the market is collapsing and stop producing?

How many parts and detailing producers would then find their market collapses?

And if a number of them shut up shop, how would the raw material suppliers fare?  Would the likes of Markits (wheels), Slaters Plasticard (card) and Eileen's Emporium (general bits and tools) have a big enough market to stay with it?

 

Of course there are alternative suppliers of some parts on the continent and elsewhere, but I think to say that you are entirely independent of the rtr market is wrong, even if you do not buy directly from them.

 

Of course if you do buy stock steel and turn your own wheels and etch all of your own parts apart from the ones you cast yourself, then I withdraw the comment.

[Coach bogie]

Yes! But how do you expect to draw kids of all ages & sexes into the hobby - this is something those red boxes do very well.

By teaching them to do things for themselves. My 11 and sixteen year olds can both solder, because others and myself inspired then to learn how. The 11 year old has been building old Airfix wagon kits for many years.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Paul Cram]

I can understand that as the situation today when the rtr producers exist, but I wonder how things would turn out if they all decided the UK market was not worth the hassle that a few seem to want to deal out here.

 

How many kit manufacturers depend on a groundswell of models who having rtr, then decide to dip a toe in the water and try a kit - and then continue down that vein?

And if they decide the market is collapsing and stop producing?

How many parts and detailing producers would then find their market collapses?

And if a number of them shut up shop, how would the raw material suppliers fare?  Would the likes of Markits (wheels), Slaters Plasticard (card) and Eileen's Emporium (general bits and tools) have a big enough market to stay with it?

 

Of course there are alternative suppliers of some parts on the continent and elsewhere, but I think to say that you are entirely independent of the rtr market is wrong, even if you do not buy directly from them.

 

Of course if you do buy stock steel and turn your own wheels and etch all of your own parts apart from the ones you cast yourself, then I withdraw the comment.

Arguably the small suppliers would be stronger having a bigger market. Look at the variety of kits there used to be before the rtr producers started taking their market. I have been modelling for 40 years and only recently became aware of the detail of rtr models. As they do not produce many models for my period or area and some they have done are badly flawed then they still are of no interest and I would not miss them if they disappeared. The argument of attracting youngster seems to be flawed as well as we are told not many are entering the hobby and most are older entrants..

 

If you only had kits then surely you would develop the skills to build them, after all that is what used to happen.

[Express Blue]

Arguably the small suppliers would be stronger having a bigger market. Look at the variety of kits there used to be before the rtr producers started taking their market. I have been modelling for 40 years and only recently became aware of the detail of rtr models. As they do not produce many models for my period or area and some they have done are badly flawed then they still are of no interest and I would not miss them if they disappeared. The argument of attracting youngster seems to be flawed as well as we are told not many are entering the hobby and most are older entrants..

 

If you only had kits then surely you would develop the skills to build them, after all that is what used to happen.

 

 

I can only assume that Paul Cramm, by his posts and his generously spread dislikes, does not want Hornby to survive and for the UK to have a vibrant RTR sector. 

Edited August 11, 2014 by Express Blue

[Paul Cram]

I can only assume that Paul Cramm, by his posts and his generously spread dislikes, does not want Hornby to survive and for the UK to have a vibrant RTR sector. 

I am ambivalent

[The Stationmaster]

As ever an interesting and polarising debate about the future of Hornby - in this case seemingly spurred by delay in the delivery of the P2s.

 

If we stand back for a moment we need to recognise that the new management team at Hornby is exactly that, 'new' and it has a lot to get to grips with and that takes time.  Contracting production slots depends on who else is after them and deals for other clients can presumably not be re-made on the basis of a date alone.  Hornby clearly are trying to unblock the production situation and it is obvious the difficulties they face in doing so might be more onerous than expected - we really do have to give them time to recover from the disaster of the later Frank Martin years and the bad decisions they included.

 

Does the hobby need Hornby?  Simple answer is 'yes' because r-t-r will be the route into our hobby for many and if it is not there they will be dissuaded by the alternatives - e.g just how many parents in Britain today know enough about soldering to be able to teach their children how to do it, why do they need to know anything about it anyway? Things from a box which join together easily and work together are what many (most?) consumers expect nowadays so denying them that possibility could result in the hobby shrinking.

 

Now about that P2 - perhaps time to lock the thread until it appears?

[Mike at C&M]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

   At last, we have some positive news about the release dates of the P2. But before you all go off in ecstatic celebration, be aware they are not about to flood on to the market.

 

  The latest Hornby trade news shows that R3171, the Railroad version, should have an initial batch arriving with Hornby in the week commencing August 25th.

  A further batch of R3171 will then arrive later this year - no time frame is specified for this later batch.

  Over the next couple of weeks, at least, Hornby deliveries are severely restricted due to re-locating of the warehouse facilities, so it may well be mid-September before the models start dribbling into retailers, and even then numbers received will not be their full allocation.

 

  So the wait is nearly over, but further patience is still required before all three versions are fully available.

Edited August 15, 2014 by 87029

[Coldgunner]

Awesome, I guess they must already be in transit then.

[Ian Hargrave]

Heading the Trans-Siberian Express inbound via Moscow,apparently,reports reaching us via our Tashkent correspondent Yuri Gresleyvovich would suggest.

[S.A.C Martin]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

   At last, we have some positive news about the release dates of the P2. But before you all go off in ecstatic celebration, be aware they are not about to flood on to the market.

 

  The latest Hornby trade news shows that R3171, the Railroad version, should have an initial batch arriving with Hornby in the week commencing August 25th.

  A further batch of R3171 will then arrive later this year - no time frame is specified for this later batch.

  Over the next couple of weeks, at least, Hornby deliveries are severely restricted due to re-locating of the warehouse facilities, so it may well be mid-September before the models start dribbling into retailers, and even then numbers received will not be their full allocation.

 

  So the wait is nearly over, but further patience is still required before all three versions are fully available.

 

Initial batch? Why not the whole batch? Am I missing the point somewhere? Why on earth would you only make a portion of an order with more to follow if it's been in the manufacturing stage for the last two years?

 

So then more disappointment for people who've ordered with retailers as full allocations are not given out.

 

If ever there was a way to put people off buying Hornby products, it was this - have they learned nothing from the last five years?

[Colin_McLeod]

Initial batch? Why not the whole batch? Am I missing the point somewhere? Why on earth would you only make a portion of an order with more to follow if it's been in the manufacturing stage for the last two years?

 

 

 

The alternative would have been to wait until it was all ready then there would be more complaints. Doing it this way, those who get the initial batch are less likely to complain, unless of course, they complain in anticipation!

[S.A.C Martin]

The alternative would have been to wait until it was all ready then there would be more complaints. Doing it this way, those who get the initial batch are less likely to complain, unless of course, they complain in anticipation!

 

But Colin, they've previously been pilloried for the small initial batches the last few years - retailers and consumers alike. I don't fathom Hornby's strategy on this one, especially when it's backfired previously.

[Guest 2750]

No mention of the more detailed one...

[Colin_McLeod]

I read on RMweb of problems with initial batches, which get resolved in future runs. 

[melmerby]

Heading the Trans-Siberian Express inbound via Moscow,apparently,reports reaching us via our Tashkent correspondent Yuri Gresleyvovich would suggest.

Latest news it is diverted south to Ukraine as a part of a "Humanitarian" convoy I believe.

No wonder the Ukrainians are getting all hot under the collar at their Eastern border! (anticipation?)

 

Keith

[Ian Hargrave]

Latest news it is diverted south to Ukraine as a part of a "Humanitarian" convoy I believe.

No wonder the Ukrainians are getting all hot under the collar at their Eastern border! (anticipation?)

 

Keith

Who knows....maybe an AK 47 is part of the accessories.Come in handy,that would,if you think about it.....Maybe part of the new Hornby packaging..."Box Clever".( Mike,The Stationmaster has copyright on that quip)

[Hroth]

Latest news it is diverted south to Ukraine as a part of a "Humanitarian" convoy I believe.

No wonder the Ukrainians are getting all hot under the collar at their Eastern border! (anticipation?)

 

Keith

Wellllll.....

Did you see that "humanitarian" (quick livery respray too!) truck on the news yesterday?  Just a couple of boxes right at the back?  I fear that they've all been regauged and sent to Moscow...

 

On a note of sanity, the Sentinels arrived in batches too and we're now at the point where they're freely available.  Lets not panic just yet!  I'm just keeping my fingers crossed that I ordered my Railroad one early enough to be in that first batch!

[gr.king]

Off topic but I think the empty space in the humanitarian trucks was for the heavily armed troops who would be needed "only" to ensure that the aid was distributed in an orderly fashion, and who would of course in no way be joining up with the yobbos and bandits in the East of Ukraine, nor donating their military equipment to them.....

 

SMALL BATCH - I've no idea but could it be that this is all that the Chinese factory at present is willing to make, or willing to release to a firm that seems as disorganised and crumbly as Hornby at the moment? They'll want to be sure that they'll actually get paid you know......

[gr.king]

Just supposing that my sceptical remarks are true regarding the way that the Chinese might currently perceive Hornby's odds of paying up for the P2s, then might I make a suggestion? If Hornby were willing to immediately tell the WHOLE TRUTH about this debacle, and were willing to see that any advance payments from customers went into a guaranteed account rather than into Hornby's general purse, I would be quite happy for payment to be taken via my chosen retailer (Hattons) for the P2s that I have pre-ordered, providing that were to lead to guaranteed delivery from the very first batch and by an immovable specified date. Would others be willing to do likewise and would Hornby accept that as a means of finally getting the now farcical ball rolling ???

[S.A.C Martin]

I'd be a yes but I just can't fathom why Hornby haven't just stuck their finger out and had the headline models made and sold ahead of their dross. Did the model railway world need or want the Railroad Bagnall ahead of the P2?

 

They've just not planned ahead well and been found wanting on product. Amazing that we could be so positive about Hornby five years ago, to go a situation where their very existence is potentially under threat.

 

I don't want Hornby to go under but it's not been the fault of the modeller, collector or the family and kids train set sector - purely and simply Hornby have got themselves into this mess. They need desirable product in numbers to sell, and fast, to get out of it.

[Corbs]

I would hazard a guess that the cost vs. profit for the bagnall is better for Hornby than the P2.

 

Existing chassis not needing new tooling, simple construction, train set target market. It was probably a lot easier and quicker to get made than a completely new model, and it'll likely sell as well as any other Railroad 0-4-0.