Hornby P2

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Considering the relationship P2 to MN it's more extending the topic than deviating off it. If Hornby gets the commercial return hoped for on the P2, I should think it would give them thoughts of the air-smoothed MN's potential...

[Dunsignalling]

Remember it is only Hornby that is taking this path....so far. Thankfully, this company does not have a monopololy of the plastic RTR loco market.

Only Hornby have stated an intention to move in this direction, but the locos reintroduced by Bachmann with DCC-friendly mechanisms were not otherwise upgraded so could equally be regarded as 'Second Division' when compared with their recent all-new models.

 

They are somewhat in advance of Hornby's Railroad range but, despite having separate handrails, may turn out to be broadly comparable in other respects with the better versions of Hornby's Design Clever output.

 

However, we won't know for certain until Hornby show us finished models.

 

John

Edited October 4, 2013 by Dunsignalling

[Ian Hargrave]

Considering the relationship P2 to MN it's more extending the topic than deviating off it. If Hornby gets the commercial return hoped for on the P2, I should think it would give them thoughts of the air-smoothed MN's potential...

Let's hope we'll be still around to buy one !

[Miss Prism]

Considering the relationship P2 to MN it's more extending the topic than deviating off it. If Hornby gets the commercial return hoped for on the P2, I should think it would give them thoughts of the air-smoothed MN's potential...

 

The bizarre logic of railway modellers' frothing knows few limits!

[Guest Belgian]

 

Only problem I see in that equation is that today's grandfathers are all too young to have seen a P2 looking like that but I wouldn't mind betting that my dad would have bought one for my son if it had appeared on the market when he was still around because dad could remember the original when new.

But if the doting grandfathers all put their hands in their pockets and give the money to http://www.p2steam.com/ instead of it all going to the grandchildren then they will see a P2 looking like that!

 

JE

[Guest Belgian]

Considering the relationship P2 to MN it's more extending the topic than deviating off it. If Hornby gets the commercial return hoped for on the P2, I should think it would give them thoughts of the air-smoothed MN's potential...

But I suspect they'll be too late in this Golden Age.

 

JE

[robmcg]

I posted to show that some people are expecing Castles for Flat prices!

If you want top notch you go to someone like Golden Age, if you want something affordable you go to Hornby.

 

IMHO the P2 so far shown by Hornby looks impressive at the price and the few "faults" should be easily rectified by those that wish to.

Many of us will just be grateful that Hornby has produced a relatively short lived and long departed prototype.

 

Keith

 

impressive BUT the photo shown about 30 messages back showed an almost irrepairable sag at the running plate under the cab, just like most Bachmann Pacifics.  Hopefully this will be fixed in production.

 

Rob

[Guest Belgian]

Didn't it start off without them?

IIRC they were added because it was found the exhaust was drifting more than on 2001

 

Keith

I'm sure I've seen it without them on its early test runs from Kings Cross. Presumably it was during such bedding-down tests that the softer exhaust became apparent and the additional plates were added before it went oop north to the wilds of Scotland for service.

 

JE

[Guest Belgian]

Possibly a streamlined (Air Smoothed) Merchant Navy (In all the livery and cab variants back to 21C2 in Wartime Black) would work with "Clever Design". As long as they didn't try to mold the circular Southern Railway nameplate on the smokebox door.

They did that with the Southern liveried Light Pacifics but simply had a different smokebox door with BR numberplates instead for the BR versions, so it wouldn't be troublesome if they did. But who says they are going to do the rest of an air-smoothed MN anyway?!!! Do you know anything?

 

JE

[Ian Hargrave]

They did that with the Southern liveried Light Pacifics but simply had a different smokebox door with BR numberplates instead for the BR versions, so it wouldn't be troublesome if they did. But who says they are going to do the rest of an air-smoothed MN anyway?!!! Do you know anything?

 

JE

The origins of that.....'mea culpa' ......are in post 301.

[Dunsignalling]

After pausing to put my "slightly cynical" hat on, the P2 could easily have displaced an air-smoothed MN in Hornby's programme. They are (unfortunately) almost entirely safe to assume that no Flannel Jacket will appear in a blue box however long they leave it themselves.

 

It's rather too soon for any excitement surrounding the forthcoming new-build P2 to do them much good in the mass market, so Hornby may have moved early to prevent Bachmann beating them to it as they did with "Tornado". 

 

Bachmann's early announcement of their Brighton Atlantic may also indicate 'claim staking' on a full-sized re-creation.

 

If so, I wonder who will be first to list a 47xx in their 'forthcoming attractions'.................

 

John   

[Dunsignalling]

impressive BUT the photo shown about 30 messages back showed an almost irrepairable sag at the running plate under the cab, just like most Bachmann Pacifics.  Hopefully this will be fixed in production.

 

Rob

Now you come to mention it, in the photo almost at the bottom of Post 257, the whole cab/firebox area seems to be leaning backwards slightly.

 

John

[Ian Hargrave]

After pausing to put my "slightly cynical" hat on, the P2 could easily have displaced an air-smoothed MN in Hornby's programme. They are (unfortunately) almost entirely safe to assume that no Flannel Jacket will appear in a blue box however long they leave it themselves.

 

It's rather too soon for any excitement surrounding the forthcoming new-build P2 to do them much good in the mass market, so Hornby may have moved early to prevent Bachmann beating them to it as they did with "Tornado". 

 

Bachmann's early announcement of their Brighton Atlantic may also indicate 'claim staking' on a full-sized re-creation.

 

If so, I wonder who will be first to list a 47xx in their 'forthcoming attractions'.................

 

John   

John...it took me a few moments...and a nod to Bletchley Park .....to decipher your posting.You are of course referring to 21C1,I presume ? Never heard that one before......The 'blue box' is open to interpretation.Besides Bachmann,both Helljan and Dapol use them. Jesting apart let's hope somebody produces one within the foreseeable future.....apart from 'Golden Age',that is.

[coachmann]

If Hornby is now looking for financial salvation, I bet the company won't touch an original Merchant Navy with a bargepole. Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why the cash-strapped Southern wanted them (mystique), why the wartime Government allowed them to be built (curruption at the highest level), and why BR coughed up to have the lot rebuilt (waste of public money). It goes without saying I am no fan of its designer.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Considering the relationship P2 to MN it's more extending the topic than deviating off it. If Hornby gets the commercial return hoped for on the P2, I should think it would give them thoughts of the air-smoothed MN's potential...

 

The bizarre logic of railway modellers' frothing knows few limits!

That's not frothing, that's perfectly reasonable speculation on the basis of long term observation of Hornby's behaviour: 'big wheeled, colourful namers 'R' us'.

 

I reserve all my froth - and there's plenty of it - for nice grubby little 0-6-0s and wagons, hur, hur, hur...

 

As for Bulleid being able to build the MN's in wartime, he had track record. Got the SR's poor large steamers to perform, and could point to the Doncaster wide firebox designs as the way forward. The V2 continued building through WWII; a 6'2" wheel wide firebox express to heavy mineral haul capable locomotive: Bulleid was able to promote his new design as a build on that proven concept. That he did it with multiple unproven innovations that caused endless trouble - now that was naughty...

Edited October 5, 2013 by 34theletterbetweenB&D

[Guest Belgian]

If Hornby is now looking for financial salvation, I bet the company won't touch an original Merchant Navy with a bargepole. Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why the cash-strapped Southern wanted them (mystique), why the wartime Government allowed them to be built (curruption at the highest level), and why BR coughed up to have the lot rebuilt (waste of public money). It goes without saying I am no fan of its designer.

But, Larry, whether or not the prototype was good, bad or indifferent, modellers still lust after them - at least, Southern ones do! (I'm one, and I do).

 

JE

[The Black Hat]

Bachmann's early announcement of their Brighton Atlantic may also indicate 'claim staking' on a full-sized re-creation.

 

Err... Not quite. Try again...

[Dunsignalling]

If Hornby is now looking for financial salvation, I bet the company won't touch an original Merchant Navy with a bargepole. Personally, I'm still trying to figure out why the cash-strapped Southern wanted them (mystique), why the wartime Government allowed them to be built (curruption at the highest level), and why BR coughed up to have the lot rebuilt (waste of public money). It goes without saying I am no fan of its designer.

The rebuilding of the Merchant Navies was a lot less radical than the change in their appearance suggests.

 

Apart from a new smoke-box, it didn't actually amount to much more than new Walschaerts valve gear and a different reverser replacing those aspects of the originals that caused most of the problems. Ease of maintenance was the important factor as, by the mid-1950s, recruiting men with the required skills who were prepared to work in the sort of conditions created by the Bulleid oil-bath was becoming difficult.

 

Rebuilding was done when locos came due for general overhauls and created one of the most effective Pacifics to run in this country, one that provided a fitting finale to express steam operation.

 

As what would nowadays be called a mid-life refurbishment, I'd say it was probably good value.

 

SR locos were not the only ones to have money spent on them in the fifties, with the WR turning the Kings into something far better than they were before and significant numbers of A3s getting new or overhauled A4 boilers very late in their working lives.

 

John

Edited October 5, 2013 by Dunsignalling

[Dunsignalling]

Err... Not quite. Try again...

I didn't mean they were trying to take over the new build - just forestall a model from one of their competitors.

[robmcg]

That is so true, Dunsignalling, I think crewmen liked different aspects of them both before and after rebuilding, As Bert Hooker so ably recounts in his 'Legendary Railwayman' book with foreword by R H N Hardy. This was recently still available from Amazon or The Book Depository.

 

Bert Hooker was a superb engineman.

 

edit;

oops P2 thread drift I cannot help myself!

Edited October 5, 2013 by robmcg

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Better than P2 exhaust drift with the original exterior design. I hope the A1 team's P2 build does as advertised successfully use modern resources to ensure good exhaust clearance to prevent obscured crew look out. The proven Bugatti design 'exhaust lifter' from the A4 and later P2 build seems a much simpler solution to me...

...Apart from a new smoke-box, it didn't actually amount to much more than new Walschaerts valve gear and a different reverser replacing those aspects of the originals that caused most of the problems...

 In support of which Ron Jarvis was emphatic in his own writings on the rebuild process which he devised, that over 90% of a rebuild remained Mr Bulleid's engine.

[Guest Belgian]

The rebuilding of the Merchant Navies was a lot less radical than the change in their appearance suggests.

 

Apart from a new smoke-box, it didn't actually amount to much more than new Walschaerts valve gear and a different reverser replacing those aspects of the originals that caused most of the problems. Ease of maintenance was the important factor as, by the mid-1950s, recruiting men with the required skills who were prepared to work in the sort of conditions created by the Bulleid oil-bath was becoming difficult.

 

Rebuilding was done when locos came due for general overhauls and created one of the most effective Pacifics to run in this country, one that provided a fitting finale to express steam operation.

 

As what would nowadays be called a mid-life refurbishment, I'd say it was probably good value.

 

SR locos were not the only ones to have money spent on them in the fifties, with the WR turning the Kings into something far better than they were before and significant numbers of A3s getting new or overhauled A4 boilers very late in their working lives.

 

John

I think that's very true. Rebuilding a Bulleid only took one week longer than giving one a general overhaul, so it was more a case of reassembling them with some different parts. To bring this back on topic, rebuilding the Bulleids was a far less radical move than rebuilding the P2s. (As an aside, has anyone researched what influence Bulleid had on the design of the P2s - he was certainly heavily involved in 2001's shake-down trials and was the LNER engineer to accompany the engine to the testing station in France).

 

JE

[69843]

 

I'm surprised no-one has raised the issue of the gearbox/motor area being clearly visible ahead of the firebox, as well as no daylight below the boiler...

[DaveF]

I didn't think the P2's had any daylight under the boiler - at least not on any photos I've seen of the prototype.

 

David

[bluebottle]

Better than P2 exhaust drift with the original exterior design. I hope the A1 team's P2 build does as advertised successfully use modern resources to ensure good exhaust clearance to prevent obscured crew look out. The proven Bugatti design 'exhaust lifter' from the A4 and later P2 build seems a much simpler solution to me...

 

But, the exhaust drift was a problem with 2002, with Walschaerts valve gear and piston valves, not with 2001, which had Lentz valve gear and poppet valves – which produced a sharper blast. However, this was blamed for wasteful fire throwing; according to O S Nock, the valve gear fitted to 2001 was capable of fine adjustments of the cut-off as used during the Kings Cross-Grantham trial, but when it went into service between Edinburgh and Dundee, the valve gear had been changed to give only three steps of cut-off. On the fluctuating gradients of the difficult route, drivers had to adjust power using the regulator. The A1 trust website merely comments that “However, the Lentz gear used on the original offered only limited cut-off settings and may have contributed, in part, to No. 2001’s high coal consumption”, so some disagreement there about whether further adjustments of the valve gear might have improved matters.

In any case, the Doncaster P2 Trust's project of a Bugatti-fronted P2 with Walschaerts gear, should it come to fruition, would give everybody a chance to make meaningful comparisons. I spoke to one of the Doncaster group's team on their stand at the Doncaster show a couple of years ago and mentioned the possibility that the A1 Trust would use British Caprotti valve gear on 2007, which “was perfected in its application to No. 71000 Duke of Gloucester and offers infinitely variable cut-offs”. Judging by his slightly heated reply, he'd already had to answer ignorami such as myself, telling me that there was only one elderly man who understood Caprotti's, that he was retiring from the work, and that would probably be that …

 

I make reference to Nock's "British Locomotives of the 20^th Century” - Nock had the benefit of riding on various P2 footplates.

The A1 Trust: http://www.a1steam.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=697&Itemid=247

The Doncaster P2 Locomotive Trust Cock O' The North website: http://www.cockothenorth.co.uk/index.html

Any errors or misquotations almost certainly mine.

Edited October 7, 2013 by bluebottle