Hornby P2

[The Stationmaster]

 

Following on from my point above, if the main difference between the premium and railroad versions is going to be the paint job and lining, but if you want to fit your own handrails you will have to get the exacto out and then repaint and re line what you spent some of the extra money on, then why would you buy the premium model over the railroad one which costs less?

I might be proved wrong  by the market but this is I think where the 'premium' versions are going to fall between two stools and do Hornby more harm than good in the longer run.  My impression is that a market exists for higher fidelity r-t-r models and it is prepared and able to pay for them although it is hardly a 'mass market' in Hornby's longer understanding of such a term.  That sort of market will either reject the 'premium' models as falling short of what it's looking for - even at a lower price point or it will go for the 'basic' version and not be so concerned about taking knife, files, and whatever to a much cheaper starting point rather than correcting the niggling 'ha'porth of tar' shortcomings of a 'premium' model.

 

As I say, the market might prove me wrong but I continue to have misgivings about what will happen once seriously 'designed clever' locos begin to appear.

[davidw]

I might be proved wrong  by the market but this is I think where the 'premium' versions are going to fall between two stools and do Hornby more harm than good in the longer run.  My impression is that a market exists for higher fidelity r-t-r models and it is prepared and able to pay for them although it is hardly a 'mass market' in Hornby's longer understanding of such a term.  That sort of market will either reject the 'premium' models as falling short of what it's looking for - even at a lower price point or it will go for the 'basic' version and not be so concerned about taking knife, files, and whatever to a much cheaper starting point rather than correcting the niggling 'ha'porth of tar' shortcomings of a 'premium' model.

 

As I say, the market might prove me wrong but I continue to have misgivings about what will happen once seriously 'designed clever' locos begin to appear.

 

I would agree completely with your assessment. I fear though as the 'bean counters' get hold of things at Hornby then the fidelity that we've seen in recent releases will be 'dumbed down'.

 

Costs in China are set to rise another 15 -20% by 2015, Could we as a result see loco's like the recent B1, O1 and so on retooled to a lower spec, as assembly cost rise?

[The Stationmaster]

I would agree completely with your assessment. I fear though as the 'bean counters' get hold of things at Hornby then the fidelity that we've seen in recent releases will be 'dumbed down'.

 

Costs in China are set to rise another 15 -20% by 2015, Could we as a result see loco's like the recent B1, O1 and so on retooled to a lower spec, as assembly cost rise?

Or not see them made at all?  

 

I think if Hornby are prepared to bite the bullet of the lower volume higher fidelity market area such locos could continue but be priced accordingly, assuming Hornby can find someone to make them of course.

[robmcg]

...

 

As I say, the market might prove me wrong but I continue to have misgivings about what will happen once seriously 'designed clever' locos begin to appear.

I think Hornby will easily sell the 'design clever' generation of locos with moulded smokebox handles and some handrails if the price is under about £100. Perhaps it is an oddity of the UK market compared to the rest of Europe that people baulk at paying £200 for a better RTR model. I certainly wouldn't want to make the call in setting in train a commitment to produce £200 locos.

 

Of course we will be able to buy out DoG or P2 and add etched plates and detail parts, and weathering, or as in my case, photo-edit my pictures. For what it's worth and I don't normally mention it, because we all have limitations of various kinds, I used to be a keen modeller in my teenage years but injuries have left me essentially one-handed which is a bit limiting at times.

 

I still would PERSONALLY prefer that new models were produced to the standards of a couple of years ago, the long list of outstanding Hornby models continuing, even if I did have to save up or think a little harder before buying.

[laurenceb]

Must be a slow news day http://www.burtonmail.co.uk/News/Train-mendous-effort-in-honour-of-Sir-Nigel-20130929080000.htm

Laurence

[micklner]

Good publicity for all parties concerned

[Btourer]

I might be proved wrong  by the market but this is I think where the 'premium' versions are going to fall between two stools and do Hornby more harm than good in the longer run.  My impression is that a market exists for higher fidelity r-t-r models and it is prepared and able to pay for them although it is hardly a 'mass market' in Hornby's longer understanding of such a term.  That sort of market will either reject the 'premium' models as falling short of what it's looking for - even at a lower price point or it will go for the 'basic' version and not be so concerned about taking knife, files, and whatever to a much cheaper starting point rather than correcting the niggling 'ha'porth of tar' shortcomings of a 'premium' model.

 

As I say, the market might prove me wrong but I continue to have misgivings about what will happen once seriously 'designed clever' locos begin to appear.

Mike's post got me thinking on the cost versus value for money equation regarding old, premium, Hornby models and the new Design Clever Type, so I sat down this evening and had a look to see if I could come to a conclusion by comparing two models.

 

I looked for both models on Hornby's online shop as it gives a direct comparison with the pricing direct from the manufacturer. The first, of course is R3207 Cock o' the North. My comparison, for the purposes of this, would have to be non limited edition and unweathered, and a large express passenger locomotive. I chose R3013 Coronach.

 

First factor - price. R3207 CotN costs £122.99. R3013 Coronach costs £140.99. So Cock O' the North wins on price, costing £18 less than Coronach.

 

I then wrote down a few things that Coronach has that CotN doesn't, and looked online at Markits where I often pick up items like this. Here's a list of parts and prices direct from Markits:

LNER sprung loco buffers - £6.90

Smokebox door handle LNER - £4.16

Handrail knobs - £2.84

Brass handrail wire - £2.49

P&P (minimum) - £3.50

 

Total cost - £19.89

 

Paints for touch up/ cabside repaint and smokebox door repaint - all Railmatch paints, prices from Howes:

LNER Doncaster green - £2.95

Black - £2.95

Silver - £2.95

Couldn't find P&P costs, so no figure for that.

 

Total - £8.85 plus P&P

 

Grand total £28.74

 

My point is that you get a lot of value out of the extra £18 paid for R3013! Especially when you consider the extra cab detail too!

[robmcg]

Well that certainly adds to the hobby of model railways, just as after-market weathering does.

 

I doubt that factory weathering will ever please a very high proportion of buyers, but things like separate handrails and smokebox door handles have been on most or all Hornby super-detail models for a few years and I for one do not particularly want to have to supply and fit them myself on models retailing at £120-£150, especially if moulded handrails need to be ground off... highly problematic.

 

That said, I am NOT complaining. If I want better model realism I might first look at EM and nearer-to-scale wheel profiles!

 

Interesting times for all 00 RTR manufacturers.

[clecklewyke]

Good publicity for all parties concerned

But only in Burton! 

[Ian Hargrave]

But only in Burton! 

Typical Burton Mail.....famous for such riveting,sensational headlines as....'Horse - Horror !' ( local pony gives little girl playful nip with his teeth ) and  'Swan Attack' ( someone gets too close to mother and brood on banks of the Trent)

We used to have it delivered daily (incredibly for a provincial newspaper,it's still a regular Monday to Saturday newspaper ) before we retired.Reason being that my wife worked in local government and needed to know,for professional reasons, who featured in the daily obituary column........strange but true! 

Gresley is a name that features in two South Derbys.villages....Castle Gresley and Church Gresley. Good to know that a famous son is featuring in local news....but why now and why this ? Nothing on 'The Great Gathering'....

[micklner]

The point re handrails is not the cost.

 

Removing them is a very simple job as is fitting replacements.

 

The problem is blending the resultant scar on the bodywork in and then painting with the correct shade. Doing neither is easy and on occasions virtually impossible due to matching the paint shade and hiding the "scar".

 

I would have much prefered if Hornby et al, simply mould  the holes where the rails are to be fitted in the cab sides. The handrails could be left in a plastic bag for fitting by the buyer as with all the other detail parts already supplied with other current models. Fitting would be a 10 second job.

[brushman47544]

I might be proved wrong  by the market but this is I think where the 'premium' versions are going to fall between two stools and do Hornby more harm than good in the longer run.  [snipped]

 

I would agree completely with your assessment. I fear though as the 'bean counters' get hold of things at Hornby then the fidelity that we've seen in recent releases will be 'dumbed down'.

 

Costs in China are set to rise another 15 -20% by 2015, Could we as a result see loco's like the recent B1, O1 and so on retooled to a lower spec, as assembly cost rise?

 

I do wonder if we have reached, and perhaps even passed, the high point of fidelity in British outline models. Like it or not, there doesn't seem to be a market for premium models at the prices European models currently pay. Hornby's response is design clever and provided we eventually reach a suitable compromise in terms of well chosen moulded detail but with some separate fitments, then I will be happy enough. But I do agree Hornby may be making a mistake by producing two versions of the same model when the premium version is not sufficiently better in terms of separately fitted detail that we are prepared to pay the higher price in the expectation that we won't be taking a knife to it. How much of design clever on the models we've seen so far (including those still in development) has been dictated by what the factory will find easier to produce rather than what could or should not be moulded from a visual perspective, I wonder? I am willing to give Hornby more time on this.

 

Or not see them made at all?  

 

I too have wondered about this. If Hornby's current manufacturing base is unable to produce the highly detailed premium models from Hornby's current tooling and Hornby continues to transfer production to new factories, I do wonder if some models will cease production, at least temporarily until either tooling is simplified or market conditions change. A am seriously considering a couple of purchases of models in liveries I don't really want but can change in case the ones I am waiting for don't materialise.

[Btourer]

The point re handrails is not the cost.

 

Removing them is a very simple job as is fitting replacements.

 

The problem is blending the resultant scar on the bodywork in and then painting with the correct shade. Doing neither is easy and on occasions virtually impossible due to matching the paint shade and hiding the "scar".

 

I would have much prefered if Hornby et al, simply mould  the holes where the rails are to be fitted in the cab sides. The handrails could be left in a plastic bag for fitting by the buyer as with all the other detail parts already supplied with other current models. Fitting would be a 10 second job.

Hi Mick,

 

I agree with you regarding the difficulties of covering up the scar on the bodywork. I also suggested seperate handrails in a fit your own bag a few posts back and agree totally with you on that.

 

My point in my above post is not one of pure cost alone. I detail all of my locomotives, re gauge to EM and weather. This does add cost. I have the Coronach model and i have replaced the smokebox door dart handles for example.

 

My point was that when Design Clever was launched on RMweb and in the modelling press, it was promoted by Hornby as a way to offer locomotives at a lower price point. As I showed above, this is true.

 

However, price paid and value for money are two completely different things. I was merely trying to show that by comparing features offered between 'Old premium' and 'Design Clever premium' models, and then looking at the cost of upgrading your Design Clever model to old premium standards, you are actually getting less for your money. In a statement, I don't believe Design Clever premium models offer the buyer the same value for money that one of the A3s, A4s, B1's, Bullied Pacifics, Britannias etc offer.

 

Conversely, I believe that the Railroad model, at the price it is offered at, with the same chassis and mouldings offers outstanding value for money. Even after you add on the costs for upgrading it still will cost less than an old premium model.

[Btourer]

Well that certainly adds to the hobby of model railways, just as after-market weathering does.I doubt that factory weathering will ever please a very high proportion of buyers, but things like separate handrails and smokebox door handles have been on most or all Hornby super-detail models for a few years and I for one do not particularly want to have to supply and fit them myself on models retailing at £120-£150, especially if moulded handrails need to be ground off... highly problematic.That said, I am NOT complaining. If I want better model realism I might first look at EM and nearer-to-scale wheel profiles!Interesting times for all 00 RTR manufacturers.

Rob,

 

EM is worth a look! I have been an EMGS member for three years now, being convinced to have a go after speaking to Roy Jackson when he appeared at Model Rail Scotland giving demonstrations at the EMGS booth. He also introduced me to Model Railway Journal, what a find that was!

 

Although I initially thought that EM was well beyond my skill levels, that has not been the case, and it certainly looks much better.

 

Regards,

Colin

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

The point re handrails is not the cost.

 

Removing them is a very simple job as is fitting replacements.

 

The problem is blending the resultant scar on the bodywork in and then painting with the correct shade. Doing neither is easy and on occasions virtually impossible due to matching the paint shade and hiding the "scar".

 

I would have much prefered if Hornby et al, simply mould  the holes where the rails are to be fitted in the cab sides...

I agree with the general sentiment of what is here proposed. I would prefer the yet cheaper option, of having the manufacturer outright omit any detail which cannot be installed at the target price as separate parts, when this is  necessary for good appearance. Always simpler to add to a 'blank canvas'.

[Dr Gerbil-Fritters]

I find the detail vs cost argument falls apart when I look at this....

 

Edited September 30, 2013 by Dr Gerbil-Fritters

[Mike70]

Typical Burton Mail.....famous for such riveting,sensational headlines as....'Horse - Horror !' ( local pony gives little girl playful nip with his teeth ) and  'Swan Attack' ( someone gets too close to mother and brood on banks of the Trent)

We used to have it delivered daily (incredibly for a provincial newspaper,it's still a regular Monday to Saturday newspaper ) before we retired.Reason being that my wife worked in local government and needed to know,for professional reasons, who featured in the daily obituary column........strange but true! 

Gresley is a name that features in two South Derbys.villages....Castle Gresley and Church Gresley. Good to know that a famous son is featuring in local news....but why now and why this ? Nothing on 'The Great Gathering'....

 

Did anyone else notice the schoolboy error in the article;

 

"The release, which will hit shelves in early 2013"

 

I do wonder if we have reached, and perhaps even passed, the high point of fidelity in British outline models. Like it or not, there doesn't seem to be a market for premium models at the prices European models currently pay. Hornby's response is design clever and provided we eventually reach a suitable compromise in terms of well chosen moulded detail but with some separate fitments, then I will be happy enough. But I do agree Hornby may be making a mistake by producing two versions of the same model when the premium version is not sufficiently better in terms of separately fitted detail that we are prepared to pay the higher price in the expectation that we won't be taking a knife to it. How much of design clever on the models we've seen so far (including those still in development) has been dictated by what the factory will find easier to produce rather than what could or should not be moulded from a visual perspective, I wonder? I am willing to give Hornby more time on this.

 

 

I too have wondered about this. If Hornby's current manufacturing base is unable to produce the highly detailed premium models from Hornby's current tooling and Hornby continues to transfer production to new factories, I do wonder if some models will cease production, at least temporarily until either tooling is simplified or market conditions change. A am seriously considering a couple of purchases of models in liveries I don't really want but can change in case the ones I am waiting for don't materialise.

 

Having read some of the comments on this forum recently, I'm also seriously thinking of buying loco's in liveries which I don't particulalrly want.

 

I'm even thinking of getting Royal Lancer, despite the fact it has got the wrong tender and it is now about £60 more than what it was when Rails were flogging them off.

[autocoach]

Possibly a streamlined (Air Smoothed) Merchant Navy (In all the livery and cab variants back to 21C2 in Wartime Black) would work with "Clever Design". As long as they didn't try to mold the circular Southern Railway nameplate on the smokebox door.

[gr.king]

I doubt if all the chattering and complaining in the world will alter much in Hornby's plans at this stage. I can see Mick's point about separate add-on handrails, but I wonder if this would limit costs in the way that Hornby feel is necessary. The final fitting operation carried out by the skilled ladies in the factory may be quite a low cost one. In order to supply ready-to-fit handrails they would still all have to be cut to length, threaded onto and secured in the knobs, and maybe painted (if necessary) at the factory. That may be where much of the cost lies. I don't go for the idea that it is a better bet to start from a Railroad version if you want to add details. The top-end version gives you much better livery details that would take a lot of time and skill to replicate by hand, whereas you CAN with care strip moulded handrails from a fully liveried version, substitute wire ones, and touch in paint with a mixed shade to match. That is certainly what I would do if I finally decided to upgrade the handrails. Buffers and smokebox fastener are a doddle to change.

 

It seems to me that the reality is that limited choices exist:

 

1. If you are actually a MODELLER and you don't like the details of the model, then alter them!

 

2. If you don't feel that you have the skill, time or confidence to interfere, but you don't mind paying for something better, then find a "man who can" (not that I'm offering at present) and commission him to alter or build a model to your specification.

 

3. If you are only a buyer/runner/collector anyway then you'll have to put up with what is commercially offered as the standard product. Why would that bother you anyway? Collectors even pay huge amounts of money for slightly scruffy but rare pieces of ancient bent tinware. This model, even as it stands, is in my view EXCELLENT value for the typical box-shifter price and the moulded handrails are far more convincing than any I've previously seen (when picked out by contrasting paint). When the news of this loco began to emerge I fully expected that if produced to top-spec it would be in the £140 to £180 bracket, even from the box-shifters. I was somersaulting with delight when I found out how little it was going to cost and was able to sell my existing "average" kit built loco and an unstarted kit for far more money than it would cost me to buy two new finished examples.

 

Some people are never satisfied. Before anybody points it out, I know that I fall into that bracket at times too.

Edited October 1, 2013 by gr.king

[Ian Hargrave]

Point 3....totally agree. I've seen it.......I've drooled over it......I'll buy it. By coincidence,today being a new month,just turned the page of my Bachmann calendar. For October,a print of P2 'Earl Marischal' at Montrose,heading an Aberdeen to Edinburgh express.. Looks wonderful. Celebrate that we're getting the opportunity of a P2 model.....and one this good. My Gresley 'teaks' are becoming restless......be still,my bogies !!

[micklner]

     Totally agree with Graeme , for how much Hornby are saving, why have they gone in the moulded direction. They are saving pennies and if the model came out £2 to £5  dearer would anyone be bothered or even notice the price change to cover the additional cost.

      Yes a easy job for most people but sadly for some ,it will put them off buying e.g  a collector or a non modeller who knows how the train should look, sees it thinks looks cheap ,cant do anthing about it or cant/wont pay someone else to change the handrails , they then decide not to buy = loss of sale and relevant profits.

     That person then sees a friend  says Hornby are dumming down latest locos e.g GWR tanks as well. That then snowballs gets more exagerated as the word goes round and Hornby lose out big time. 

 

     I think most people on here would happily pay for the high standard that has already been achieved with other models, how many will still pay for lower quality ? Time will tell.

     I personally will buy the upgraded P2 as it is ,as Graeme has said a total bargain and I luckily can do the necesssary modifications.

Edited October 1, 2013 by micklner

[coachmann]

My view is that once the initial wow and euphoria is over for Cock '0 the North, the big consistent seller for Hornby will be the BR 8P Duke of Gloucester. It is a model most folk can find an excuse for seeing as it ran from 1954 and is a preserved mainline loco. If things work out this way, Hornby will want to squeeze more money out of the Mikada, and so an A4 front P2 with more variety of names looks a likely bet.

[jwealleans]

If I were a betting man, Larry, I'd have 10p on that. It's a nailed on cert.

[kiltedsignaller]

Point 3....totally agree. I've seen it.......I've drooled over it......I'll buy it. By coincidence,today being a new month,just turned the page of my Bachmann calendar. For October,a print of P2 'Earl Marischal' at Montrose,heading an Aberdeen to Edinburgh express.. Looks wonderful. Celebrate that we're getting the opportunity of a P2 model.....and one this good. My Gresley 'teaks' are becoming restless......be still,my bogies !!

That was MY experience this morning, too, Ian. Interesting to see Earl Marischal wearing the extra deflectors.

[Ian Hargrave]

That was MY experience this morning, too, Ian. Interesting to see Earl Marischal wearing the extra deflectors.

We're any two of them alike in their original condition,I wonder ? You,of course have the added incentive of being an Aberdonian. I can remember seeing the P2's as emasculated by Thompson in their early B.R. Days.If I remember correctly,they were then New Enlgland ( 35A ) locos....no longer 'Cock O'The North'.....more your duck of the south....

From an 'Aberdarian' ( South Wales ) to an Aberdonian ( Granite City ).......best regards,Ian.