Dapol class 86

[Multiple identity account 2]

Well, I would like to know IF electrics don't sell, with facts, not hypothesis based on retail pricing.  Just because some places are discounting doesn't mean they are slow sellers, could be any one of a number of reasons for discounts.  Fact is no-one but the manufacturers know if electrics sell or not - and I doubt they will volunteer commercially sensitive information.  So as far as I'm concerned it's all speculation, sometimes delivered in a disappointing, slightly sneering way as justification that some wierd one-off freak diesel or obscure steamer is somehow "more deserving" of investment and production slots.

Manufacturers themselves have stated that there is no demand for electrics.

 

The few reasons stated are no demand in the first place, lack of accessories accompanying them (catenary and all that), slow selling rate etc. I've had Hornby tell me this, I think elsewhere on this forum DapolDave has said this about the Dapol Class 92, BernardTPM has also clearly stated that a certain kit he produced took years to sell out just 100 of them.

[Multiple identity account 2]

Both Denis Lovett (Bachmann) and Dave Jones (then Dapol) are on record as saying "Electrics don't sell" in the past, and have done on RMWeb.

Fully agree with you Paddy. Manufacturers haven't been afraid to tell us that and they won't lie for such a thing. It is a fact and even if a 1000 people want it that wouldn't make up the cost of production.

[bmthtrains - David]

Electrics understandably don't sell as well due to the 'its a diesel so it can run anywhere' excuse we've all used to justify buying something. Equally, a passenger electric train is quite long, so another reduction of the potential buying pool as you need a lot of space.

 

Oddly though, going by clearance prices and availability, the 350 seems to have sold reasonably well. I would go as far as to say it probably sold in the numbers Farish had expected - its not been deeply discounted, and Hattons (surely accounting for a decent chunk of retail sales) sold their initial allocation and reordered.

 

David

[justin1985]

We just aren't used to having models with catenary in the UK, in the way that most continental modellers almost take it for granted. I think it is very much a chicken and egg situation, people won't be interested in modelling electrics at all unless there is a supply of high quality models. In both OO and N the majority of electric models were quite ropey until quite recently, so thats a lot of layouts already in existence built without electrics in mind. Now there are many better models, it will still be a long slow process for enough layouts to be out there that suit them ...

 

I would still put money on an all singing, all dancing cl.90 (in either scale) selling more units than a Fell, or whatever other esoteric transition era nonsense people froth over! 

[Multiple identity account 2]

We just aren't used to having models with catenary in the UK, in the way that most continental modellers almost take it for granted. I think it is very much a chicken and egg situation, people won't be interested in modelling electrics at all unless there is a supply of high quality models. In both OO and N the majority of electric models were quite ropey until quite recently, so thats a lot of layouts already in existence built without electrics in mind. Now there are many better models, it will still be a long slow process for enough layouts to be out there that suit them ...

 

I would still put money on an all singing, all dancing cl.90 (in either scale) selling more units than a Fell, or whatever other esoteric transition era nonsense people froth over! 

Even I have to admit that I feel there is no demand for them because they are not upto today's standards. The Cl. 90 is also my personal favorite and I'd like to see Hornby do a Super-Detailed one soon. To me there is a demand but it's just that no one would like to sit and detail a whole bunch of them.... one maybe two for a small project is good but we have our limits. If the model is good people will be attracted to it. A model will also be picked up by a collector so era wouldn't matter too. It's all down to how the model looks against it's price.

[Revolution Mike]

If manufacturers have had poor sales from electrics then I hardly think it makes much sense to request re-tools of existing models....IMHO do as a fair few people on here have been doing and do some modelling (witness the various 90 threads in 2mm and 4mm).

 

Bachmann have shown willingness to continue to invest in electrics - the 85 and Desiro being the cases in point.

 

Ultimately we as modellers and the manufacturers are going to have to find a way over this "hump" of electrics not being popular as the network becomes ever more electrified.

 

Cheers, Mike (who would still really like to see the Dapol 92 come to fruition!)

[justin1985]

If manufacturers have had poor sales from electrics then I hardly think it makes much sense to request re-tools of existing models....

 

I think this is kind of the distinction between a dumb business, which just follows the market, and one that has the foresight to see how they might be able grow their business in the future. Just making more of what people are buying now, in almost all businesses, leads to eventual stagnation, and/or commoditization of your product. It often seems that most stock market listed retailers suffer from this, their risk adverse-ness becomes their biggest risk. 

 

Bachmann seem quite good at coming up with coherent groups of products that support the sale of each other, and ultimately grow the market - Mk2 a coaches and class 85s etc. Dapol were clearly trying to follow this strategy too, with the Mk 3 + DVT + cl.86, catenary etc but I imagine got cold feet when sales didn't grow quickly enough. I suspect they simply don't have deep enough pockets to play the long game in the way that Bachmann can as part of an international corporation, which doesn't have the direct scrutiny of jittery stock market investors every year, like Hornby does.

 

You can see this on a small scale with Kernow's special commissions - individually a radial tank would be quite an esoteric model, but as part of a coherent range with clay hoods, suddenly people start thinking about building a layout of a Cornish china clay branch, and you can sell more of both models. Suddenly the china clay layout is the new MPD.

 

So Dapol were on the right lines, with the catenary plus 86, but unfortunately for them, I suspect the area of electrics is too big to catalyse in this way. Give people a good 86, and they think they'd need a good cl.90 to make a decent layout; give them single track catenary, and they might think "oh, I might build a layout when there is double track catenary". Also, I suspect pre-announcing the Pendolino, cl.92 made some people think they'd wait to see what those were like, before buying the 86s.

[Mike W]

The Farish electrics, when detailed, don't look bad at all (see this thread) . I think we have quite acceptable models of 86, 87, 89, 90, 91 & 92 in N right now. Granted, the 89 & 92 are CJM but the rest are cheaper and detailing up the Farish models makes them look much better. Fixing the air dams to the bodies of the 90 & 91 makes them look much better, as do Dapol pantographs and TPM detailing kits. It's well worth doing, in my opinion.

 

Equally, whilst electrics are mainly used on long trains, clever layout design showing only the 'end' of a longer train can correct this.

[Revolution Mike]

I think this is kind of the distinction between a dumb business, which just follows the market, and one that has the foresight to see how they might be able grow their business in the future. Just making more of what people are buying now, in almost all businesses, leads to eventual stagnation, and/or commoditization of your product. It often seems that most stock market listed retailers suffer from this, their risk adverse-ness becomes their biggest risk. 

 

But (as you've identified) growing the market requires more than just a re-tool of an existing model. The Farish 90 is not so awful (unlike say the 56) that modellers can't work with it.  

 

Bachmann seem quite good at coming up with coherent groups of products that support the sale of each other, and ultimately grow the market - Mk2 a coaches and class 85s etc. Dapol were clearly trying to follow this strategy too, with the Mk 3 + DVT + cl.86, catenary etc but I imagine got cold feet when sales didn't grow quickly enough. I suspect they simply don't have deep enough pockets to play the long game in the way that Bachmann can as part of an international corporation, which doesn't have the direct scrutiny of jittery stock market investors every year, like Hornby does.

 

So Dapol were on the right lines, with the catenary plus 86, but unfortunately for them, I suspect the area of electrics is too big to catalyse in this way. Give people a good 86, and they think they'd need a good cl.90 to make a decent layout; give them single track catenary, and they might think "oh, I might build a layout when there is double track catenary". Also, I suspect pre-announcing the Pendolino, cl.92 made some people think they'd wait to see what those were like, before buying the 86s.

I agree, though Dapol's problems have also been partly of their own making ie announcing the 92 and Pendolino without thinking through the tooling needed for the latter or the impact of "low" sales of the former.  On the Mk 3s they botched the supply chain so getting Mk 3 coaches can be nigh on impossible at times with either "normal" (1st and 2nd) coaches out of stock or buffets not made yet.

 

Cheers, Mike

[justin1985]

I completely agree with Mike W that the Farish 90, and undoubtedly the 91, can scrub up nicely with some work - I have a part finished 90 with the TPM detail kit already applied, waiting for me to get around to tackling the PHD light clusters. However, I suspect the proportion of modellers willing to do this kind of work, that needs a repaint, is very small indeed! 

 

Also, I'm with red death on the Dapol Mk 3s. I can't help thinking that Dapol just haven't got the hang of supply chain planning to account for the lack of control they clearly have over manufacturing slots. Perhaps their batches are so small they have to wait for many models to be completed to justify shipping a container worth? Either way the long lead times combined with small batches make it almost impossible to put together coherent trains from their releases. And look at the debacle of the HST trailer liveries with non-matching roofs and text positions. DVTs in Intercity or Virgin are like hens teeth, and it still hasn't been possible to get a Mk3 buffet in any of the earlier liveries - meanwhile Intercity and Virgin cl.86s are getting reduced to clear as they're sitting around without anyone buying them - I wonder why! I can only imagine this will get worse with Dave's departure.

 

C&M's commission of the Scotrail Mk.3s to go with the Farish 47/7 is inspired, but I hope it turns up on time! I sincerely hope Dapol are sensible enough to release some more 86s to coincide with the release of the Farish Mk 2 aircons!

Edited August 22, 2013 by justin1985

[Mike W]

We're wandering a bit off topic here but provided you can get donors in the livery you need, you can make Dapol TGS and buffet coaches using PHD etches; I'm doing an Intercity Exec TRUB at the moment (new window frames to go on tonight!).

[Etched Pixels]

If you release lots of models at once you have to have the capital up front to pay for all the tooling. Farish Mark 3 stock has I think two tooling variants and can cover almost the entire range. Dapol has to do one tool for each - hence all the catering coach fudging.

 

Alan

[justin1985]

If you release lots of models at once you have to have the capital up front to pay for all the tooling.

 

Very true, but I'm sure Bachmann realise more income from their approach of drip feeding liveries on new models, usually coordinated between locos and coaches, for example, than Dapol do by releasing a new tooling in umpteen different liveries at the same time, which are then either remaindered (as many people who might want several cl.86s can't afford to buy them all at once), OR they are impossible to find when the matching coaches appear. 

 

Hence my comments on Bachmann's financial position giving them the flexibility to take this approach. I suspect Dapol could probably actually make more profit, and enjoy better relationships with more retailers, with fewer new toolings, but more intelligent release schedules and supply chain management. (i.e. more of their models could be sold at closer to RRP). Of course, this requires them to be able to amortize the cost of the toolings over much longer periods - not easy for a small business - but perhaps healthier in the long term.

Edited August 22, 2013 by justin1985

[bennyboy]

 

I agree, though Dapol's problems have also been partly of their own making ie announcing the 92 and Pendolino without thinking through the tooling needed for the latter or the impact of "low" sales of the former. 

 

Cheers, Mike

 

As Dapol have already produced an 00 version of the Pendolino, I should Imagine that they were well aware of the amount of tooling required for it.

[wombatofludham]

I seem to recall Denis Lovat or someone similar from Bachmann also said that a Blue Pullman would be too expensive to produce but that has changed in the meantime, so I remain to be convinced electrics are sales death. They may not sell as many as the Class 37 but perhaps Bachmann take a wider view and use big hitters to cross-subsidise slower sellers.

I can see though that a smaller company like Dapol would not be in such a position and would need to make every investment count - that said, how much more esoteric, and limited in operational sphere is the Class 22?

[frobisher]

I seem to recall Denis Lovat or someone similar from Bachmann also said that a Blue Pullman would be too expensive to produce but that has changed in the meantime, so I remain to be convinced electrics are sales death. They may not sell as many as the Class 37 but perhaps Bachmann take a wider view and use big hitters to cross-subsidise slower sellers.

The Blue Pullman will be something of an informed choice however. With Olivia's sniffing around looking for someone to commission it from, and buoyant wish list poll positioning Bachmann could quite safely point to a level of demand that made financial sense to them.

 

I can see though that a smaller company like Dapol would not be in such a position and would need to make every investment count - that said, how much more esoteric, and limited in operational sphere is the Class 22?

Thing is, "diesel hydraulics sell" hence the scramble to produce them all in the last few years.

[bingley hall]

Some hilarious stuff on here.

 

Obviously we have one or two candidates for Dave's job making their public pitch for the position.

 

They do seem to have ALL the answers.

[frobisher]

Some hilarious stuff on here.

 

Obviously we have one or two candidates for Dave's job making their public pitch for the position.

 

They do seem to have ALL the answers.

I would like to refer the honourable gentleman to the wisdom of Thumper's Mum...

[njee20]

I do agree that many of the problems are Dapol's own doing - the livery inconsistencies, massive delays between announcements and releases, inability to put together complete sets, tiny releases which get snapped up in pre-orders, dummies being released months after powered units on sets that always run in pairs etc.

 

I do believe that electrics don't sell as well, but also agree that it's a sweeping generalisation and that there are some pretty 'niche' diesels and such which get made.

 

I would absolutely love a 92, and would have several without doubt (and still come in way under a single CJM model), but I sincerely doubt we'll ever see it. I just hope they've not made the decision solely on the sales of the 86, because I honestly don't think they've been indicative of the market appetite.

[jonathan452]

 - that said, how much more esoteric, and limited in operational sphere is the Class 22?

And even more so the new Heljan Class 16.

[bingley hall]

...... massive delays between announcements and releases........

 

Not exclusive to Dapol but endemic throughout the model rail industry at the moment - check out the whingeing on some of the US model rail sites.

[ThaneofFife]

I think I can see the natural progression for more new AC loco models once the aircon Mk2s are released..........

probably from Bachmann - i'll need some convincing by anybody trying to tell me that Bachmanns range of AC locos will stop at the 85.  

 

I see some continue to find refuge in the oft used tag line "go do some modelling" to those who talk of detailed RTR ACs to modern standards.........probably because their OK with their hifi RTR 37s, 47s, 56s etc......   sure their not merely feathering their own nests?

[Revolution Mike]

I see some continue to find refuge in the oft used tag line "go do some modelling" to those who talk of detailed RTR ACs to modern standards.........probably because their OK with their hifi RTR 37s, 47s, 56s etc......    sure their not merely feathering their own nests?

 

Not at all - I would just rather see a 92 and 85 (and some EMUs) rather than another 87 or 90....

[Mike at C&M]

C&M's commission of the Scotrail Mk.3s to go with the Farish 47/7 is inspired, but I hope it turns up on time! I sincerely hope Dapol are sensible enough to release some more 86s to coincide with the release of the Farish Mk 2 aircons!

With regard to the Mark 3s, we hope that they will too, although we are more concerned with Farish also getting the 47/7s and DBSOs out around the same time!

 

Our BR Blue Class 86s have now been available for some 3 years, and we still have around 50 left out of a production run of 240. Considering we did 2 different numbers, and many customers then purchased 1 of each number, we too are very disappointed at the length of time it is taking to sell these locos through.

 

After early plans to do further examples, we now have no intention of producing more BR Blue 86s in the future.

 

You must remember that we are in business to make money, not spend money to fill up our shelves with unsaleable stock.

 

Mike, C&M

[arran]

HI All

 

One reason electrics don't sell is the lack of  good reliable and constantly available overhead system, I know Dapol did some masts and that was that there was much dangling of carrots about what was next but nothings happened.

 

You might want to lobby the hobbies answer to Network rail for that.

 

Regards Arran