N gauge LSWR 3-Sub

[Southernboy]

Thanks Black Sheep, much appreciated.

 

Various thoughts have since passed through my head, some of which I've worked through and now dismissed. Remainig questions are:

 

1) The cans were old and perhaps the product had deteriorated.

2) I'd made a 'spray booth' from a cardboard box - but elsewhere it was mentioned that maybe they can case 'blowback'.

Perhaps that's the explanation?

Previously I've just laid newspaper over the dust sheets on the layout to spray stuff. That felt a bit random, and I thought ''spray booths' were de regueur if you are to do things like this 'properly'. 

 

Well it will take a few days at least to remove the paint, so plenty of time to think.

 

Next time I'll try just one carriage first, and photograph and examine the picture before I proceed further

 

The strange thing is I don't feel at all annoyed, frustrated or disappointed. From the start I sort of knew there would be something, at some point, that would go wrong, and somehow I knew it would be when iI came to painting. Strange but true!

[Southernboy]

Hello Nick, thanks for responding.

 

your post arrived as I was writing mine above.

 

I used Humbrol primer.

I do have etch primer (two-part). But was nervous about using the product as I know nothing about it. Specifically I was worried it may adversely effect the plastics / glues I'd used (eating into them?) 

 

With that in mind I did ask for advice about whether it was safe to use the product in an earlier post on this thread but received no response.

So I thought it best to err on the side of caution and defaulted to Humbrol because I'd used it satisfactorily before .

 

As to degreasing: Well I went over the sides and ends with a glass-fibre pen really quite thoroughly - although not the rooves at all. But the paint finish was consistently unacceptable. So I don't think it was that.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean about "undercoat looks to have dried in th air"  ... I sprayed from the recommended distance and the room temperature was around 20º.

 

Thanks for helping me think this through ...  It's really useful

 

 

Mark

[DavidK71]

I agree with Nick: It looks like you sprayed from a bit too far away, and the paint has partially dried before it hit the brass. Not an easy thing to judge. I would guess that the scored lines for the lower half of the doors were too shallow, if primer has covered them.

 

In the past I've had some success dealing with primer that dries like this by rubbing over it with a pencil eraser to rub off the rough surface pieces. I've never tried a whole coach with that trick, though.

 

 

[brightspark]

I find that I get quite a consistent result if I warm the paint and the model.

I put the model into the airing cupboard for a few hours after degreasing to let it warm nice a slowly.

The paint is first shaken then put into a jug of hot water every ten minutes or so I shake the tin and feel the outside to see if the paint is warmed through.

When happy that both are warmed through, I put the tin of paint in pocket, to keep it warm, and take the model from its nice warm space to the spray booth. Which in my case is a cardboard box in the garage.

As I am doing this the paint gets another two minute shake.

The paint.

In between each spray I make sure that the paint goes back into my pocket to keep warm.

 

For a degreaser, I use a cheap washing up liquid. Not Fairy as it has lanolin in it.

For stripping I use brake fluid. I have not had any materials react with it yet, but I still try it on a test piece first in case it does.

 

To harden the paint and to help smooth it out, I put it back into the airing cupboard. I was told that this helps the paint at a molecular level.

The last bit could be a load of tosh, but it seems to work.

[Izzy]

I have to say that although I have airbrushes for a good many years I have only used Halfords spray cans to apply both primer and top coat to ensure a reliable and consistent finish. This has been across a range of scales and surfaces, both metal and plastic, and I have encountered no problems.

 

I would agree that fine detail can tend to disappear in N/2mm if the paint coat is too thick but this is something that seems to happen whatever type of paint and the method of application that is used and has to be dealt with after the primer stage should it occur.

 

Izzy

[pete_mcfarlane]

I now use a spray can etch primer I got from Halfords on brass models. You need etch primer on brass, or the paint doesn't always stick properly.

 

I tend not to use Humbrol these days as the quality took a nosedive when they moved production to China. Sometimes they spray OK, and sometimes the result is awful.

 

Those units are looking good, minor paint finish issues aside. 

[MrSimon]

Excellent coaches Mark - another vote for halfords primer here too (and their matt and satin blacks are brilliant for steam engines) I always seem to get problems spraying outside in london with the spray picking up particles from the air and sticking them firmly onto the middle of tank-sides etc (I'm not allowed to spray inside though) so I don't know if that could be a contributing factor?

 

I've also started rubbing paint down between coats on stock, to smooth out any brush marks or dusty/pigment-y lumps and bumps

 

Hope the new coats turn out to your satisfaction!

 

Cheers

 

Simon

[Atso]

Hi Mark,

 

I would uses some very fine wet and dry on the motor to remove the orange peel effect (I use some tiny rubber blocks to support the paper, made up from old moulds but a pencil eraser would work to). You've got another vote for Halfords primer here though!

 

Otherwise, exceptionally good work on those units!

[Mikkel]

Wonderful detailing work on those coaches, Mark. The distance shots show the real level of your craftmanship, the paint problem is thankfully just intermediate!

 

The paint effect seems equally bad on brass and plastic - I wonder if that means it's not a brass-specific issue? Apart from the spray distance and the temperature issues (I've also had experiences suggesting that the latter is important) your point about deteriorated product seems a goood guess. Or maybe the nozzle just went arwy. I've had good results with a can in the morning only to experience a completely different result with the same can and set-up in the afternoon. Changing to another can then gave the result I wanted.

 

BTW, as I get older I notice that my skin is beginning to resemble your 3-sub paintwork in places. Can you recommend a good primer for that?  

[Southernboy]

I big thank you to everyone for your thoughtful and informative replies, some real gems of wisdom there, I really am very most appreciative. Thank you again.

 

I'll take a few days break - then re-read, digest, and return to the job. 

 

Mikkel: I recommend Diprobase, apply a base coat each morning.

It keeps me looking so young, so young ... 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glUm-cHeekc

[Colin parks]

Hi Mark,

 

I have been out of the loop for a while , but see you have made great progress with your 3 SUBs. The problem with the paint finish is unfortunate, and does look as if the paint had dried too much before landing on the coaches. As others have said perhaps you sprayed from too far away, or the temperature of the paint and models was too high.

 

Whatever the reason, the paint must be wet when it hits its intended surface. Ideally, set up your spray area with two spotlights, one above and one to the side. This will give you the best indication of how the paint is hitting the surface of the model. Get the airbrush out and practice with that. Airbrushes are far more controllable than spray cans - especially on 2mm models.

 

The another possible explanation for the grainy finish could be that there was bad quality paint in the can: I once had a bad time with a tin of Humbrol Matt 27 grey, had minute grains of some kind in the paint - and that was new tin at the time.

 

All the best and nil desperandum,

 

Colin

[richbrummitt]

I've had issues with one part etch primer where the nozzle on the can has been the issue causing the paint to come out in larger droplets. The aerosol was supplied with a second nozzle and swapping for an unused nozzle solved the problem.

[Southernboy]

Thank you Colin and Rchard, I really do appreciate you taking the time to lend me your experiences. 

[c2c]

Hi Mark, like Colin I too have been pre occupied so just catching up with your progress.

 

Aerosol's are not really a good choice for spraying something as small as your project, the spray pattern alone would have too larger droplets in the paint mist, a cheap airbrush off ebay would be a good start, as Colin has already mentioned after a bit of practice you will have more control by using one. Not only that you will able to thin the paint down more to obtain a much finer finish and with a few adjustments be able to apply the paint with the airbrush nozzle only inches away from the surface.

 

So worth while buying an airbrush and a small compressor if you intend to carry on scratch building and no doubt of course the continuing development of Frankland where it could also be put to good use ! 

[brightspark]

I don't have an airbrush, but would like to get one sometime, so I stick with aerosols. Humbrol are a huge let down, which is a shame as they used to be very good. The matt varnish was the best, but now has the properties of paintstripper as I found to my cost with the Swaynton Signal Box.

I am also unhappy with many of the other model paint suppliers products as they clog up the aerosol nozzle. So if I can find a Halfords match I will tend to use it.

 

Another tip is to only use the small cans of aerosol. The bigger cans seem to have too much pressure and that can cause paint runs, orange peel effect and other horrors. I think I even had similar symptoms to the above, perhaps caused by either having to hold the can too far away and/or the propellant drying out the paint before it hits the surface.

 

And don't rule out brush painting. I know that it is out of fashion but you can get very good results and very smooth finishes.

 

I look forward to seeing the repaint.

[Izzy]

Since the last thing you want is to have to repaint them again if the next try doesn't work, and need all the differing advice possible from which to make a choice as to what to do, I thought that perhaps a couple of shots of my attempts using Halfords spray cans on some 2mm SA coaches might be of help.

 

Here is a BR mk1 full brake in grey primer, and then it, a GUV and CCT as existing now, a couple of years later, with a top coats again from Halfords, the odd transfer, and some weathering via Faber-Castel pastels. I'm sorry for the poor quality of the shot, taken quickly on top of the plastic storage box in which they live, but as with most models in this smaller scale they do look somewhat better in real life than in enlarged photos. However they might give you a better idea of the results using the Halfords cans.

 

 

 

Hope it helps,

 

Izzy

[Adam]

 

And don't rule out brush painting. I know that it is out of fashion but you can get very good results and very smooth finishes.

 

 

 

I would agree with that. Certainly for smaller models - such as these EMUs - brush painting is very effective. For modelling paints such as Precision or Railmatch you will need several thin (i.e. with paint well let down with thinners to a watercolour sort of consistency) coats to get effective coverage but with good brushes this really is a good path to follow. I have several 4mm scale lorries, no end of wagons and even a loco done this way. Obviously this works better for darker colours but something like Olive or Malachite Green should be fine.

Adam

[sparks]

I'm currently cutting and gluing small sections of 010 x 020 Microstrip to the solebars which (hopefully) you can see in the picture below.

 

They are a distinctive feature of these units inherited from their 'Bogie Block-Set' progenitors, and something that visually sets them apart from later units which did not have them.

 

 

Hi Mark

 

I think these are the brackets that support the footboards. Possibly a little late as you've already made them, but I just happened upon some nice detail shots of what appears to be the prototype unit which shows them clearly:-

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think it will change what you've already done though!

 

The photos are from Part 1 of these articles (Part 2 covers Durnsford Rd power station and Part 3 covers the substations):-

The Engineer 1915 0924 - Electrification on the London and South-Western Railway No.I  http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/The_Engineer_1915/09/24

The Engineer 1915 1001 - Electrification on the London and South-Western Railway No.II  http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/The_Engineer_1915/10/01

The Engineer 1915 1008 - Electrification on the London and South-Western Railway No.III  http://www.gracesguide.co.uk/The_Engineer_1915/10/08

 

Hopefully there's something else of use in there too!

 

Stuart

[Revolution Ben]

Hi Mark,

 

Only just seen your postings about painting.

 

I am a big fan of Halford's grey primer for metal and plastic.  I use it on almost everything.  I still use the airbrush for the topcoat on anything that needs a decent finish, though I'm happy to use Halford's car paint on buildings, containers, or other "background" items where there is a balance between getting it done and getting it perfect.

 

I would definitely recommend Halford's grey primer for your stock, once you have cleaned off the primer that went wrong.  FWIW, and having been airbrushing for 20 years, I suspect your problems were caused by a combination of slightly too thin primer and spraying it from too far away.  As others have stated, this meant that as the pigment particles were travelling through the air towards your model the solvent was evaporating off them, so what landed on the model surface was, in effect, very fine powder with just enough liquid content to adhere, but not enough to flow and self-level as paint should.

 

I have every confidence that you will get this sorted and continue with your superb progress.  Indeed, as you yourself have identified, at some point something was bound to go wrong ("the man who never made a mistake never made anything") and correcting the problem is often, I have found, a valuable lesson in itself!

 

cheers

 

Ben A.

[Southernboy]

Stuart:
Thank you very much for the excellent pictures, and links to a wonderful resource - I just took a quick peek and see there are further quite fascinating images (and articles) there. Page bookmarked - I can see myself exploring that site for some hours this weekend!

 

Thank you also regarding footboard brackets, much appreciated. 

 

 

Thank you also Ben for kind advice and support - and likewise to others who posted responses early September, I seem to have completely missed those and don't know how, my apologies!

 

 

---------------------

 

Just to update: Progress has been slow on the units of late but I'll try and post some pictures in the next few weeks.

 

Thanks again,

 

Mark 

[Southernboy]

LSWR 3-Sub 23

 

Hello all. Time for an update.

 

First picture shows the composites cleaned up. A cocktail stick was my main tool. A pin used lightly was good for fine recesses, and finally a glass-fibre pen applied all over.

 

 

 

 

I've set those aside for now: They have to be punished following the spray painting debacle!

 

 

 

As an interlude I decided to enhance my collection of scale-indicators. An overnight soak in water and vinegar followed by a good rub using baking powder and old toothbrush brought them up a treat

 

 

 

 

So that aside - I decided to next concentrate on the three (dummy) motor bogies.

 

 

The next picture shows the start of the process.  

 

 

 

 

 

Soldering such small parts was new too me, and as usual initial, lengthy, frustrations, finally gave way to a reasonable degree of proficiency (well by my standards!). I'd started off using normal solder but later found I had some soldering paste which better suited the job.  

 

 

Anyway, other parts were made from Plasticard / Evergreen Plastruct ...

 

 

 

 

The collector-shoe-bars were two-part (back and front to give depth).

 

 

 

 

 

 

The following picture shows the first stage of assembly.

I'm using old generic Farish bogies, filed smooth on the sides. The plastic they are made from is tough-as-old-boots, so rough butchery was required. I prefer to think I take a finessed approach to modelling, but in this case I had no option but to go against the grain.

 

So here are the etched sides glued to the Farish bogie, plus Plastic strip glued left and right to complete the picture. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Next I glued risers for the conductor-shoe-bars, then glued the bars to the risers, and then the shoes themselves to the bars.  

For lack of anything better in my box of things ...  the shoes are 'U' shaped Plastruct, with one arm of the 'U' cut off leaving an 'L' shape. The major part of the 'L' was glued behind the bar.

 

 

 

 

 

One thing I am painfully aware of is the fragility of this second level of assembly, the bar risers for instance are smaller than 1mm.

 

At the moment everything is spot-glued with Superglue, because I wanted to run the bogies around the layout first to ensure there are no problems. I intend later to go back and reinforce all the joins with Araldite. 

 

Using Araldite ensures all the parts are locked into a solid block, which on one level is good. But on the other hand, it means there is no flexibility in the assembly. I'm used to flexing plastic Farish bogie frames to insert / extract wheels - so I'm wondering how it's done (for eg) when people make all-brass bogie frames?? Surely all-brass assemblies must be fairly solid, so how are wheel sets inserted / removed?

 

Just something I am curious about ... 

 

 

Anyway - here are some pictures of how things are looking:

 

 

 

 

I know the front of the cabs look a mess, but to the finger they feel quite smooth. Only when I get some undercoat on there will I know what remedial work is required.  Oh, and I'm also waiting on the etched headcode boxes.

 

 

I'm really pleased with how heavy and chunky these bogies look ...

 

 

 

 

 

In the picture below - please note the twin-set of wires running from top right of the fuse box. These ran up through the running board and sole bar, then half-way up the tumblehome before diving into the side of the carriage aligned right of the ventilator louvres. It's an essential characteristic of these units and one I intend to replicate

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've made guard irons from 'T' shaped brass. The are slightly shorter than prototype to be on the safe side.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's still loads to do (the nearer I think I am to conclusion the more I realise is still to do ) -  Grab handles around the cab and guards van, beading around the base of the cab front  / etc ... 

 

 

Also, there's visual effect v. authenticity: 

 

The picture below shows two pipes (with red tops), retained by chains on the front of the cab chassis. But they hang over the bogie to quite a degree - so I think it's better to stick them to the front of the bogie because:

(1) If I fit them as they should be the swing of the bogie will knock them off = practical necessity 

(2) To the eye the difference is negligible, and most people won't pick up on it anyway

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well I think that covers everything.

 

 

------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

I still have to do the same exercise for the 'proper' motor bogies. They are quite different to the generic Farish bogies and will prove an interesting challenge

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

And now all that remains is for me to wish everyone a very merry Christmas and all the best for 2015!

 

Plus a special thank you to all who have commented on my thread / sent me PMs.

 

Collectively you have spurred me on / provided invaluable information / advice / given me confidence / to do things I never thought I could do.

 

And I am sincere about that - many thanks to you all out there in the wonderful world of RMWebLand  

 

Mark

[Pixie]

That's some seriously impressive stuff Mark - they'll be quite something when they're buzzing around your Art Deco masterpiece.

 

I like using the period coins, very subtle touch. It'd be entertaining to use a replica 1933 Penny to see if anyone picked up on it!

 

Pix

[Izzy]

Those bogies are first rate. I reckon a bit of cryno run into the joints would be sufficient to keep them all hanging together.

 

With the motor bogie, if you still have the clip-fit outer frame/wheel retainer, (which it's best to use to stop the axles dropping out anytime), then it's fairly easy(!) to make up an another outer frame to go over the original one and have the whole lot clip-fit on. Easier in the sense that there are no outer coned axles/bearings to have to cope with.

 

Izzy

[PaulCheffus]

Using Araldite ensures all the parts are locked into a solid block, which on one level is good. But on the other hand, it means there is no flexibility in the assembly. I'm used to flexing plastic Farish bogie frames to insert / extract wheels - so I'm wondering how it's done (for eg) when people make all-brass bogie frames?? Surely all-brass assemblies must be fairly solid, so how are wheel sets inserted / removed?

 

Just something I am curious about ... 

 

Hi

 

I've found that all brass bogies usually have enough flexibility to allow the wheels to be removed.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[Southernboy]

Thank you for your replies gents. Appreciated

 

Izzy - it seems with the motor bogies the wheels are retained within the motor sub-housing by their cog wheels (sorry for lack of the proper word - I am quite ignorant in some respects!) ... the reason for reducing the outer frame to minimal (or not at all preferably) is so that when I add the etched frames (with axle boxes, conductor-shoe-bars etc) , the overall width stays within gauge.  

 

I did notice that with the Farish bogie frames,  simply sticking things to them without filing off existing detail made everything too wide, and ditto with the real power bogies.

 

I hope that makes sense / I hope I haven;t misunderstood your suggestion  

 

What is Cryno btw ? A fuller?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Mark