Keswick to Penrith update

[jamie92208]

Indeed it is, and it now looks as if this disingenuous troll has vanished again, so if this is in any way indicative of the quality of future contributions, let's hope that his is a still born RMWeb existence.

 

Political support is, we all agree, essential for projects like this to get off the ground, but the lack of 'political support' can sometimes be down to a small number of individuals on a local council or within the ranks of said council's officers. I know of one case of local authority obstructionism where just one person managed to make such a lot of noise, that a relatively modest and sensible initiative by the local rail support group got stifled for years, because the wider world thought that there was no 'political support'.

 

I wish my friend Cedric Martindale continued success and patience in his quest to get this reopening taken seriously.

That's not a new phenomenon.   Bradford's trolleybus system died due to the vanity of one such council officer who didn't want wires over 150 yards of his new street.   As a result the system was cut in half and never really recovered.

 

Jamie

[nigelwright7557]

Cedric Martindale is economical with the truth !

He told me in 1998 that the line would reopen in 2000.

Then in 2000 he told me he expected it to open in 2002.

Its now 2015 and they are stuck at £400,000 and nothing much has been raised for a number of years.

 

Cedric had the massive embarrassment to call a meeting at Keswick station hotel and says he couldn't pay back bonds.

Of course the bonds holders said they would accept a holding off of repayments.

 

Cedric went to the NWRDA for support and they said there was no need for a railway to Keswick.

 

Cedric has been pretty useless when it comes to persuading Eden District Council about the case for a railway.

One of the councillors wives owned Penruddock station and she got planning permission houses on the track bed where the station once was.

Flusco was probably the last nail in the coffin for the line with a diversion estimated at £17 million.

 

I am not a troll. I am a huge fan of the Keswick railway spending many hours walking the full length of it since closure.

I went on the line twice on the last day of operations.

I am a big fan of model railways being a electronics engineer I have designed lots of electronic controls for model railways.

Don't be fobbed off by the Keswick railway supporters dismissing of me. They know I am right thats why they get so upset.

Edited March 17, 2015 by nigelwright7557

[Dava]

How about avoiding individual vendettas? Mr Martindale has probably done more than any of us would or could, but without gaining political backing it will not happen. Comparison with the Border \ Waverley route is relevant.

 

Dava

[KCR]

Links between Fife and Glasgow are already possible via the Dalmeny-Winchburgh line, which has better connections to Inverkeithing and Kirkcaldy.  A couple of peak-time trains already run that way.

 

However Fife being on the North shore of the large river with the already busy bridge, Dalmeny quite firmly situated to the south of said large river, which led to the movement of the coal traffic to the Alloa route due to the bottle neck created by this very pretty but frankly increasingly unfit for purpose bridge...  conclusion if we add more train via that route, no more space on the bridge becomes a problem again.

[Andy Y]

 

I am not a troll. 

 

There are ways of arguing an alternative opinion without looking like one, a newcomer making defamatory comments is a bit of a giveaway.

 

Tone it down please.

[The Stationmaster]

Cedric Martindale is economical with the truth !

He told me in 1998 that the line would reopen in 2000.

Then in 2000 he told me he expected it to open in 2002.

Its now 2015 and they are stuck at £400,000 and nothing much has been raised for a number of years.

 

Cedric had the massive embarrassment to call a meeting at Keswick station hotel and says he couldn't pay back bonds.

Of course the bonds holders said they would accept a holding off of repayments.

 

Cedric went to the NWRDA for support and they said there was no need for a railway to Keswick.

 

Cedric has been pretty useless when it comes to persuading Eden District Council about the case for a railway.

One of the councillors wives owned Penruddock station and she got planning permission houses on the track bed where the station once was.

Flusco was probably the last nail in the coffin for the line with a diversion estimated at £17 million.

 

I am not a troll. I am a huge fan of the Keswick railway spending many hours walking the full length of it since closure.

I went on the line twice on the last day of operations.

I am a big fan of model railways being a electronics engineer I have designed lots of electronic controls for model railways.

Don't be fobbed off by the Keswick railway supporters dismissing of me. They know I am right thats why they get so upset.

 

As the planned route avoids the former Penruddock station site, and reduces journey time in consequence, I can't really see the relevance of mentioning it.

 

So let's look and see what has been achieved - first of all the route and been surveyed (not in detail of course) and an order of costs estimate prepared, that has been checked independently by an extremely competent and experienced railway civil engineer.  Secondly a detailed survey of potential use and the marketability of the proposed train service has been prepared together with a series of options for various timetables - all of this has been done by very experienced professionally competent people.  This work was presumably funded from the money which had been raised through the bond issue - employing consultants is not a cheap thing.

 

The problem which appears to remain is the matter of obtaining 'political' support for the proposal and this is perhaps why it has seemingly languished for some time as all the work outlined above was done over 10 years ago (although much of it is still no doubt valid).

[KCR]

The problem which appears to remain is the matter of obtaining 'political' support for the proposal and this is perhaps why it has seemingly languished for some time as all the work outlined above was done over 10 years ago (although much of it is still no doubt valid).

used to be the people would have the idea for the railway raise some funds and go looking for an act of parliament in support of it, now the politicians write the act gather the funds and plan the railway, meaning there is a gap between political wishful thinking and what people want or need locally.

 

And if they try to start locally and attract governments attention, like Cedric going to the NWRDA, they'll be told nope sorry, doesn't fit with our national 5 year strategic rail plan that the ever changing minister for transport has come up with on his lunch break.

Edited March 17, 2015 by KCR

[nigelwright7557]

I enclose a file with some of the line blockages etc.

 

intact.txt

[Andy Y]

No need for an attachment - just list them, it's easier for the readers.
 

 

Intact ?

Current blockages and missing structures

Missing junction with WCML

Missing signalling with WCML

Bridge out at Redhills Mile Lane

Golf range using part of trackbed at Redhills

Bridge out at Stainton

New house just off trackbed at Stainton.

Cattle bridge out at Stainton

Large chicken shed on trackbed at Stainton

Road bridge out just north of Stainton

Road bridge shored up with 3,000 tons of stone at Hoghousehill

House right next to trackbed at Hoghouse hill

Stables on trackbed at Hoghouse hill

Farm lane bridge out at Newbiggin

Road bridge out at Newbiggin

Haulage company blocked trackbed at Blencow station

House now breaches trackbed at Blencow station

Road bridge out at Flusco

Business park breaches trackbed at Flusco

Road bridge out just west of Flusco

Some landscaping done and cuttings filled in at Division Moor

Cattle bridge out at Division Moor

Road bridge out west of Division Moor

Cutting full of rubble at Penruddock.

Road bridge out at Penruddock.

Walkway bridge out at Penruddock.

Gas company using trackbed at Penruddock

Housing estate gardens are on trackbed at Penruddock station

Road bridge out at Penruddock to Motherby road

Large bridge out at Beckses

Flyover required over A66 at Beckses.

Water course opened up through trackbed at Beckses

Turkey shed and house right next to trackbed near Sportsmans Inn

Occupation bridge out at railway summit.

Road bridge out at Troutbeck

Caravan park on trackbed at Gillhead viaduct

Trackbed needs reinstating at Threlkeld

Road bridge out at Threlkeld

Road bridge required near A66 at Threlkeld

Numerous rusty bridges need repairing in Greta gorge.

Big tunnel filled in near Keswick

Bridge needs widening and heightening under main road at Keswick

[melmerby]

What point are you trying to make?

 

That you have read all the information that Cedric Martindale has published about what needs to be done and can list it from memory?

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

I enclose a file with some of the line blockages etc.

Well yes - but unless  any of those have changed in the meantime (which is of course quite possible) they were taken into account when Corus prepared their order of costs for reopening the line with 100mph linespeed.  And of course in any case some of them are irrelevant as a consequence of the proposed deviations to a new, shorter, line of route but otherwise they exist simply as creators of a cost or act as the cause of a proposed deviation from the original route.

 

It then becomes a very simple issue of two things - the political will to reopen the line and, if/when that becomes positive, a matter of funding.  The 'political will' can, as with all reopenings, be driven by a variety of factors such as would folk on the branch happen to like a regular fast train service to Carlisle, would they like a railway at all, will it knock down someone's house and what support can they garner and so forth?  The last thing usually in such things is to consider the 'impracticalities' as most of them can be solved in one way or another - all that happens is that some of the solutions might drive up the cost while some might even reduce it, that has long been the case with any reopening scheme and no doubt will remain so as long as the reopening of closed railways receives any consideration at all.

[melmerby]

Well yes - but unless  any of those have changed in the meantime (which is of course quite possible) they were taken into account when Corus prepared their order of costs for reopening the line with 100mph linespeed.  And of course in any case some of them are irrelevant as a consequence of the proposed deviations to a new, shorter, line of route but otherwise they exist simply as creators of a cost or act as the cause of a proposed deviation from the original route.

 

It then becomes a very simple issue of two things - the political will to reopen the line and, if/when that becomes positive, a matter of funding.  The 'political will' can, as with all reopenings, be driven by a variety of factors such as would folk on the branch happen to like a regular fast train service to Carlisle, would they like a railway at all, will it knock down someone's house and what support can they garner and so forth?  The last thing usually in such things is to consider the 'impracticalities' as most of them can be solved in one way or another - all that happens is that some of the solutions might drive up the cost while some might even reduce it, that has long been the case with any reopening scheme and no doubt will remain so as long as the reopening of closed railways receives any consideration at all.

Included in that list are such nonsenses as

 

"Missing junction with WCML

*Missing signalling with WCML"

 

As if they should have been left in situ when the line closed in 1972!

 

Keith

 

EDIT *If that was the case we would still have semaphore signals at that point!

Edited March 18, 2015 by melmerby

[ozzyo]

Hello all,

 

I would like the railway to reopen, my cards are on the table.

 

IIRC the B.R.B. (properties) have (had) to look after any closed railway tunnels that have not been filled in! I think this is also the case with any disused railway over road/rivers bridges. If it's a road over bridge it became the responsibility of the council/or highways dep. One of the reasons why you see so-many road over bridges filled in.

 

A question if I may? When the lines were closed the B.R.B. own the track bed, were parts of the track bed ever sold? Or have land owners next to the old lines just moved in with out purchasing the land? As if the latter is the case all of the property that has been built on old railway track beds could be technicality all be trespassing.

 

OzzyO.     

[The Stationmaster]

Hello all,

 

I would like the railway to reopen, my cards are on the table.

 

IIRC the B.R.B. (properties) have (had) to look after any closed railway tunnels that have not been filled in! I think this is also the case with any disused railway over road/rivers bridges. If it's a road over bridge it became the responsibility of the council/or highways dep. One of the reasons why you see so-many road over bridges filled in.

 

A question if I may? When the lines were closed the B.R.B. own the track bed, were parts of the track bed ever sold? Or have land owners next to the old lines just moved in with out purchasing the land? As if the latter is the case all of the property that has been built on old railway track beds could be technicality all be trespassing.

 

OzzyO.     

I understand that some of the trackbed and adjacent land on this branch has been sold - probably by BR Property Board as non-operational land was passed to them to deal with.  I don't know if it applies on the Keswick branch but there are instances elsewhere where adjacent landowners have encroached onto or made use of non-operational railway land but the only time anything could be done about it was if the landowner got to hear of it.

[Steve-e]

Hello all,

 

I would like the railway to reopen, my cards are on the table.

 

IIRC the B.R.B. (properties) have (had) to look after any closed railway tunnels that have not been filled in! I think this is also the case with any disused railway over road/rivers bridges. If it's a road over bridge it became the responsibility of the council/or highways dep. One of the reasons why you see so-many road over bridges filled in.

 

A question if I may? When the lines were closed the B.R.B. own the track bed, were parts of the track bed ever sold? Or have land owners next to the old lines just moved in with out purchasing the land? As if the latter is the case all of the property that has been built on old railway track beds could be technicality all be trespassing.

 

OzzyO.

 

 

What you may find is that Sustrans the bike people now own the trackbed which could be the case for some of this line looking at the photos in this link

 

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ncn/map/route/keswick-to-threlkeld#./keswick-to-threlkeld?&_suid=142680592135403257031082808194

 

This may lead to problems trying to get it back, a government backed scheme may fair better than a preservation group for example.

Edited March 19, 2015 by Steve-e

[melmerby]

What you may find is that Sustrans the bike people now own the trackbed which could be the case for some of this line looking at the photos in this link

 

http://www.sustrans.org.uk/ncn/map/route/keswick-to-threlkeld#./keswick-to-threlkeld?&_suid=142680592135403257031082808194

 

This may lead to problems trying to get it back, a government backed scheme may fair better than a preservation group for example.

I think you will find the trackbed (Keswick-Threlkeld) is owned by the National Park Authority and they have already said "if" the railway gets re-instated a new route for cyclists will be found.

 

Keith

 

EDIT it is a permitted way i.e. not a public right of way/cycleway/bridleway. Use is by permission of the landowner

Edited March 19, 2015 by melmerby

[Steve-e]

I think you will find the trackbed is owned by the National Park Authority and they have already said "if" the railway gets re-instated a new route for cyclists will be found.

 

Keith

 

 

Good so hopefully that’s the maintenance of the bridges taken care of and ticked off the list..

 

[ben racey]

I've always thought going for the 'commuter' market from Keswick was a mistake - as there isn't really enough of that sort of demand to work. The biggest 'industry' in the area is tourism, so why not a heritage line? And if it's something different that hasn't been done before, how about a 3 foot 6 inch gauge line to give something a little different? 25NC, RR15th Class or GMAM Keswick - Penrith, yes please! 

 

Still awaiting the lottery win though.

 

Regards

 

Richard.

[jamie92208]

I would have thought that in today's market there would be a substantial income to be gained from the rail cruise market which the Borders Line is havinf some limited infrasture installed for, as well as commuter/public transport.   Certainly the ability to run though trains from the main line to a tourist honey pot should be useful.  I can't understand myself why there aren't any such suggestions for upgrading the Windermere branch when it's electrified.

 

 

Jamie

[jjb1970]

I think before England starts complaining about the other parts of the UK getting more support for railways than England it is worth remembering the Channel Tunnel HS rail link, Crossrail (and talk of crossrail 2), the Chiltern evergreen program etc, these have all been huge rail development projects. There is a major electrification program too, now maybe we'd like to see more and there are issues around relative levels of public spending around the UK but the idea that England has been deprived of Rail investment whilst Scotland and Wales get all sorts of investment is not really true.

 

On the Keswick line, that is a project I'd love to see but just can't see it ever happening. I am from Cumbria and remember this scheme many years ago. Without wanting to take anything away from the stirling efforts of Cedric Martindale I just can't see this ever happening.

[Bomag]

 the Channel Tunnel HS rail link, Crossrail (and talk of crossrail 2), the Chiltern evergreen program etc, these have all been huge rail development projects. .

 

A very selective interpretation of 'England' as they are limited to a single region (London and the SE). While TP lines are being electrified (but not particularly fast) we are not getting any new stock.

 

I was taking to Eric Robson a couple of years ago about upgrading Cumbrian cost level crossings so that a full Sunday service could be run without the need for relief signalman/gate keepers. The cost was as equivalent to 1m of Crossrail tunnel.

[jjb1970]

SE and Midlands, the Chiltern improvements go up to the West Midlands. There is also the Great Western electrification, not new line but a major investment which will benefit people outside of London and the SE. The Oxford - Bletchley line re-opening is not really SE either although I suppose it depends on what you define as SE. OK, so the Northern electrification is not getting new trains but it is a major investment nonetheless not to mention that HS2 if it goes ahead will be the biggest rail program seen in the UK for decades and will go to the North.

[Edwin_m]

Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield and Blackpool have had or are getting upgrades to their light rail routes.  The spend in Manchester was somewhere upwards of £1.5bn. 

[Taigatrommel]

I've always thought going for the 'commuter' market from Keswick was a mistake - as there isn't really enough of that sort of demand to work. The biggest 'industry' in the area is tourism, so why not a heritage line? And if it's something different that hasn't been done before, how about a 3 foot 6 inch gauge line to give something a little different? 25NC, RR15th Class or GMAM Keswick - Penrith, yes please! 

 

Still awaiting the lottery win though.

 

Regards

 

Richard.

I strongly disagree with this, should it reopen a line integrated into the national network with good facilities for luggage/bikes and reasonable journey times would serve the market much better.  Anything much more than half an hour to Penrith would be unattractive to locals, and through ticketing would be essential to entice tourists travelling from further afield.  Although I'm pessimistic about the prospects of the line re-opening, I can see its value and wish for its success.  When accidents have closed the A66, the diversionary routes take a long time, well over an hour.  I could well envisage shoppers using the trains, Lidl and Morrisons are pretty handy for Penrith station, and Keswick only has the pricy Booths and a small Co-op. With a senior's railcard, that could have a strong social value.  Younger residents might use it to go and socialise at McDonalds!  On a personal level, I'd definitely use it.  My in-laws live near Threlkeld, and often I just can't face the car journey from Cheltenham.

 

Being a modern railway doesn't preclude a seasonal heritage operation to bring in extra income such as the Jacobite, Cambrian Coast or Shakespeare Express, although that does require additional infrastructure such as loops at the terminus.  However, a heritage line with a light railway order means slower journeys and higher ticket prices for "ordinary" travellers, as well as a general trend to seasonal-only services and a shorter operating day.

[Reorte]

Whilst getting to Penrith may be handy I don't see it being used all that much by locals, the vast majority of passengers will be tourists (hence through ticketing being rather important, speed probably less so).