Sidings off mainline with no run round. How are these shunted?

[bmthtrains - David]

Looking at a lot of track plans, there's a fair few locations where small groups of sidings (usually near stations) are one ended, with no run round.

 

Example based on Stafford below:

 

My question is, how are these shunted? Stafford for example looks pretty rarely used, but it's the principle I'm interested in.

 

My presumption is that anything coming from the left goes in loco-first and then a shutter would pull the train off and then reverse back into the station (not ideal!), freeing the loco.

 

From the right it's easier, train goes into station then reverses into sidings.

 

Assuming these are just infrastructure sidings and not in regular use, is this how it would work? Or are there limitations which would say trains must always come from the right so they reverse in, avoiding use of a shutter going onto the mainline?

 

David

 

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

Hi David,

 

Some sidings could only be accessed/shunted by trains travelling in one direction, hence a trip working in the up direction served such Up side locations and trip workings in the down direction served such Down side locations.

 

Cheers

 

Dave.  

[bmthtrains - David]

Thanks, to in the above example, it would be accessed from the right direction, so a train moves past the sidings into the station, then reverses in.

 

This works I guess because of the station. If there wasn't one, you'd need a freight loop for the train to stop and reverse in off the mainkine?

 

David

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

....not always David. Some trips were timetabled so that a portion of the train could be left on the main line whilst a shunt took place but the train crew would have a clear understanding of the limited time available through experience and conversation with the signalman.

 

Cheers

 

Dave 

[Shed]

I'd often wondered that too.

Wonder no more.

it will make my life easier planning my layout now

[pitbull1845]

Hi David,

Bringing it a bit closer to home. Wool station has a couple of sidings that are served a couple of times a week by the Neasdon sand train.

The sidings are on the up line so the train arrives on the down and goes as far as the sidings at Dorchester, runs round and (I think) brings half the load back, goes past Wool station and then backs it into the siding. It then returns light engine to Dorchester for the rest.

 

Its a bit of  a faf but seems to work.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

Edit:

Image courtesey of Google maps..

[bmthtrains - David]

Hmm, very interesting, thanks

 

David

[big jim]

probably of no relevance but in stafford the north end neck in your diagram is protected by a black/yellow shunting disc enabling trains to run into it to shunt without having to go out onto the mainline (down slow line)

 

if the shunt needs to go into the station then it can occupy the down slow or more likely drop into the old royal mail loop out of the way as the slows are used for trains to and from the birmingham direction and trains using the slows towards colwich (mainly locals and freight)

 

we did use it at fastline to stable the flat wagons from the barton dock job on a couple of occassions but it involved splitting the train onto 2 roads and the shunt did indeed block the mainlines so was frowned upon by NR

[LNERGE]

In his book 'Fiennes on Rails' there is an account of shunting with a rope at Duck Drove between Ely and Shippea Hill that involves wrong line orders and develops into a real tale of woes... Worth a read and a chortle..

[newbryford]

The timber loading sidings at Ribblehead can only be accessed by a train running northbound and then setting back into the sidings. Once loaded, it then goes north over Ribblehead viaduct and normally runs round at Blea Moor before proceeding south.
Usually, the empties to Ribblehead travel north from Chirk, via Blackburn and Hellifield, but on odd occasions may come in from Carlisle - then they go as far south as Hellifield to run round before proceeding north to set back at Ribblehead.

Similar situations have occurred at Clitheroe Cement Works with the Mossend-Clitheroe-Mossend service when the run-round loop was not operational. The empties come in from Carlisle via the S&C/Hellifield direction and reverse back into the cement works. Once loaded, they then returned north via Blackburn, Preston and the WCML to Carlisle.

The loaded coal to the cement works would often come from the Blackburn direction and it would go past Clitheroe to Hellifield, run-round and then return south to Clitheroe to reverse into the sidings. Once emptied, it then returns east via a run-round at Blackburn.

Cheers,
Mick
 

[Calimero]

Duxford was accessed on the down road only so you had to make sure your Ciba Geigy drop off was at rear of train. Originally this was easy as Temple Mills would make the train up although at Lynn the would shunt the train so as wagons for Duxford were at the front of the Up service ready for the next days working. Occasionaly if not marshalled this way you would have to do mainline shunts especially with long trains and certainly when we started running Cartics and Ethanol tanks on it.

 

Chadwell Heath was another location we had to back in, for the project mercury stuff, then a run through somewhere to run round, usually Leyton but sometimes Ilford Car Sheds and once allowed to set back out of the yard.

[jamie92208]

Hunslet stone terminal is only accessed from the Up line.  the loaded train comes in from the south via Wakefield Westgate then into Leeds and via the Wellington curve past Holbeck Shed to get to the terminal, after unloading it departs towards Normanton.

 

Jamie

[The Stationmaster]

Simple fact of railway life - you can only shunt trailing sidings (unless you use a horse or a pinchbar etc) with the loco at the 'open' end.  You cannot shunt facing sidings unless they are double ended and you keep a road free to run round.

 

These basics explain why sidings at wayside stations were almost invariably trailing (and it avoided having facing points as well of course).  And a hint don't get confused by looking at modern layouts where facing points or crossovers have appeared for all sorts of reasons in the past 50 years or so - you still can't shunt a siding with the loco trapped at the stop blocks end - a trap some newby railway modellers fall into I suspect.  

 

I would think - without checking things - that if there is facing crossover in that position at Stafford it is there for reasons which have nothing to do with the sidings.

[PaulRhB]

Hi David,

Bringing it a bit closer to home. Wool station has a couple of sidings that are served a couple of times a week by the Neasdon sand train.

The sidings are on the up line so the train arrives on the down and goes as far as the sidings at Dorchester, runs round and (I think) brings half the load back, goes past Wool station and then backs it into the siding. It then returns light engine to Dorchester for the rest.

 

Its a bit of  a faf but seems to work.

 

Cheers

 

Scott

 

Edit:

Image courtesey of Google maps..

wool.JPG

Wool sidings used to be accessed by running round in the station, you can see the crossovers on google one the Dorchester side of the crossing, but there was a long delay on the road crossing, (safety timeout locking the barriers down).

A SPAD due to a misunderstanding led to them deciding there was also a risk of a loco having a SPAD with the barriers up so from then on the train ran on to Dorchester to do the run round and then returns to Wool to shunt the train into the sidings. The loco swapping the two sets over once the first was full. When I was there the front loader driver used to stand on the station footbridge to check all the wagons were empty which was much faster than having to climb each ladder in the sidings. The loader had a weight scale on the bucket so he could set the required weight and it would tell him once it reached the required load. The front loader drove in from the quarry in the morning and returned once the train was loaded.

 

Quidhampton sidings didn't have a run round either but the works was busy enough to justify a shunter.

The empty train would reverse in from the Up Warminster line crossover and drop the wagons in the headshunt.

The loco then uncoupled and ran forward to a kickback siding and coupled onto the loaded wagons.

The works shunter then came out of the yard and pulled the empty wagons out of the headshunt into the yard.

The loaded train pulled forward from the kickback into the headshunt.

The loaded train then reversed onto the Down Warminster line and departed, (in this case as the sidings are at the junction it then instantly changed from the Down Warminster to the Up Salisbury a leftover from when the GW and SR lines ran parallel into Salisbury before they were rationalised and the junction put in). There aren't many locations you can leave heading East or West and still take an Up train to London!

 

Sidings like Dean Hill and East Grimstead were worked by trip workings that served them in one direction only but the rest of the train carried on to serve other locations like Quidhampton or Dinton where the loco could change ends.

[Calimero]

The layout at Stafford the facing crossover is prior to the points for sidings, this is for accessing the fast from slow. The lead for the sidings is accessed from down slow, up & down relief and down goods so practice would probably be for trains coming from south to set back in. There is a neck so possibly at one time a shunt engine was provided? Salop sidings probably were for storage of wagons possibly for the Union line on the North side of the station?

[big jim]

glad you have mentioned stafford again calimero, as it happens i've just passed through en route to work and i have been racking my brain since i wrote what i did yesterday thinking that i'd got it wrong by saying you can access the sidings from the down slow.

 

im now convinced that you can only get into it from the UP slow via the cross over between the sidings and station, platform 6 (back platform) or the royal mail platform as the down slow is not signalled from the south end of platform 5

 

EDIT: crossed posts, thanks D.J.K, that extract from the section appendix helps greatly, so you can only get to it from platform 6 or the royal mail depot not the up slow as i thought

[coachmann]

The yard I am modelling at Greenfield (Standedge route) had no run round facilty and was only accessed by trains on the up line, however, it didnt have much of a headshunt either I was told the mainline could be used under the watchful eye of the signalman, and as the loco was always at the lower end of the incline, nothing could run away.

 

Opposite this yard was another fan of sidings gained from the Down mainline and again with no headshunt to speak of. In this instance I doubt very much if the mainline would be used in case wagons broke free and ran away. Wagons would therefore have to be switched from siding to siding two or three at a time. This wasn't through bad design..... The sidings had originally served as lye-bys to stable goods trains while passenger trains passed them, but became obsolete then the Micklehurst Loop line opened to cope with the increasing traffic.

[bmthtrains - David]

Fascinating stuff, and very helpful.

 

I notice Stafford doesn't have a headshunt at the exit of the sidings, even though anything that derailed would block the down slow. Are there rules about headshunts, or is it more a case of whatever we are left with is what we get on and use?

 

David

[Grovenor]

My local station where I used to spend hours watching shunting had its goods and coal sidings on the up side with access at the down end from the down platform. The first siding did form a loop which could have been used to tun round an Up train in order to shunt it, but I never saw that used, the shunting was always done from a down train with the shunting taking place from the down platform across the up line into the yard, the loop was just used to park the brake van. The shunting took long enough for 2 or 3 passenger trains to need to pass, when an up passenger was due the shunter usually sat in the down platform till it had gone, and for a down passenger would move into the yard. There were about 12 sidings in the yard, primarily incoming coal and outgoing scrap metal, with occasional general goods, I remember a few banana vans but the goods shed was really little used. There was also a private siding on the down side for an engineering works that had the odd wagon of coal and occasional outgoing loads, I don't remember ever seeing it actually shunted but did sometimes see wagons inside.

Regards

Keith

[Edwin_m]

Fascinating stuff, and very helpful.

 

I notice Stafford doesn't have a headshunt at the exit of the sidings, even though anything that derailed would block the down slow. Are there rules about headshunts, or is it more a case of whatever we are left with is what we get on and use?

 

David

 

For a very long time the rules have required either a headshunt or a trap point at the exit from depots, yards and sidings.  Even though the rest of the points in the yard are probably hand-worked, the trap or the point leading to the headshunt will be worked as part of the signalling, only reversed towards the main line when a train is signalled in or out, and restored to its normal position once this move is complete. 

 

The purpose of this is so that if anything rolls out of the sidings it will either be derailed on the trap or will roll into the headshunt, possibly also to be derailed on striking anything standing there or the buffer stop.  The trap is always arranged to throw derailed wagons away from the running line, even if this means down a bank!  If there is a running line both sides then there will probably be a wide-to-gauge point which doesn't throw to either side but (I imagine) stops the wagon with a sickening crash and a lot of damage to pointwork. 

 

At Stafford the engineering sidings act as a headshunt for these purposes, even though they may not be used for shunting wagons between the other sidings.  Whether a headshunt is provided will depend on the space available and what the yard is used for.  If it is simply for stabling entire trains then there would be no need for shunting so probably no headshunt.  If genuine shunting takes place then there would usually be a headshunt, unless the main line was quiet enough for shunting to take place there (unusual in modern times). 

[bmthtrains - David]

Interesting, so I presume the head shunt or trap point will be the last protection before any sidings meet a running line, therefore if the sidings are accessed via a reception line or specific goods line, the trap or head shunt would be between the reception line and the running line, rather than the siding and reception. This would protect the main line as shunting could involve use of the reception line.

 

David

[Edwin_m]

Absolutely. 

[big jim]

one thing i noticed when passing through stafford earlier was the exit to salop sidings is as edwin says protected by the signalling system (from stafford No4) however the north end of the double slip has a manual point lever on it so locos can enter the headshunt from either salop sidings or down sidings to perform shunts between the 2 different named sidings, it looked like the south end of the slip was controlled by the box which makes sense as it would mean only he could send a train out onto the down slow

 

for those who don't know this is where the yellow/black shunt disc comes into play, the shunt loco/train etc can pass it at danger to their hearts content within the confines of the yard as long as the route out onto the mainline is not set, therefore they can run into the headshunt to do shunts without having to speak to the box, once the train needs out to the mainline then the shunt signal is obeyed

[AberdeenBill]

Fascinating stuff indeed.   To change the subject slightly...     Several stations in my old part of the word (Christchurch, Holmsley...) had a short dead-end siding off the down main with reverse-in access.   But the siding also had a facing connection to the end-loading dock, which would barely accommodate a LOWFIT clear of the points.   Presumably the wagon was backed in to the siding, the loco departs and the wagon is then moved forward to the dock by hand with pinch-bars or similar (or did these stations have a shunting horse??).    It seems a rather inflexible arrangement, but I guess in the days when the average station had a dozen staff, there was always enought manpower...  

 

Bill

[The Stationmaster]

Fascinating stuff indeed.   To change the subject slightly...     Several stations in my old part of the word (Christchurch, Holmsley...) had a short dead-end siding off the down main with reverse-in access.   But the siding also had a facing connection to the end-loading dock, which would barely accommodate a LOWFIT clear of the points.   Presumably the wagon was backed in to the siding, the loco departs and the wagon is then moved forward to the dock by hand with pinch-bars or similar (or did these stations have a shunting horse??).    It seems a rather inflexible arrangement, but I guess in the days when the average station had a dozen staff, there was always enought manpower...  

 

Bill

Assuming the siding was level and the wagon would roll properly you wouldn't need any more than 3 or 4 blokes to shift it at the most, the hardest bit would be stopping it!