Sand traffic

[Mark Forrest]

Hi,

As some of you may recall from my workbench thread on the previous incarnation of RMweb, I'm currently (still :icon_redface: ) working on a rake of sand tipplers (Red Panda/Parkside hybrids) for the club's New Haden Colliery layout ( http://www.staffordrailwaycircle.org.uk/layouts5.php ).

By way of a bit of variety I'm wondering if there are any other wagon types I could include in a sand train in North Staffordshire in the mid/late-1950s, or would this be a block working formed entirely of tipplers?

Secondly, I'm aware that by the '70s a van was often marshalled between the last wagon and the guards van to protect the guard from being sand blasted I presume this was mainly on fitted or part-fitted trains running at higher speeds - is that correct or should I include a van in the formation of my unfitted tippler rake?

Thanks in advance.

Cheers

[Pennine MC]

Interesting query Mark, and if you get any definitive answers I'll be even more interested

 

The thing I do know is that sand tipplers were nowhere near as universal in sand traffic as modellers seem to think - I think particularly when new, they'd have been on specific flows like the Leighton Buzzard one. From the limited amount of info I've picked up from photos of the period, aggregates seem to have been a traffic where availability rather than suitability was a key factor. Most likely suspects would have been 13T Highs, which look to have been quite widely used on 'mineral' type traffic, and 16T minerals have of course also been known to step into the breach; although various hoppers have carried sand, I dont think they'd have been so likely at the time of your query

 

As for the vans, I've not seen any evidence of it elsewhere but it could have been one of those 'local' decisions, governed perhaps by the particular grade of sand, air currents around the train, and all sorts of other things that you could make up to suit

[RANGERS]

Interesting query Mark, and if you get any definitive answers I'll be even more interested

 

The thing I do know is that sand tipplers were nowhere near as universal in sand traffic as modellers seem to think - I think particularly when new, they'd have been on specific flows like the Leighton Buzzard one. From the limited amount of info I've picked up from photos of the period, aggregates seem to have been a traffic where availability rather than suitability was a key factor. Most likely suspects would have been 13T Highs, which look to have been quite widely used on 'mineral' type traffic, and 16T minerals have of course also been known to step into the breach; although various hoppers have carried sand, I dont think they'd have been so likely at the time of your query

 

As for the vans, I've not seen any evidence of it elsewhere but it could have been one of those 'local' decisions, governed perhaps by the particular grade of sand, air currents around the train, and all sorts of other things that you could make up to suit

 

Middleton Towers (Norfolk) and Fen Drayton (Cambs) used 21t hoppers on at least some trains in the 70s and 80s.

[Mark Forrest]

Most likely suspects would have been 13T Highs, which look to have been quite widely used on 'mineral' type traffic, and 16T minerals have of course also been known to step into the breach; although various hoppers have carried sand, I dont think they'd have been so likely at the time of your query

 

Funnily enough last time the layout was out we were commenting that we (almost) had enough 16T minerals; now I have an excuse to add a couple more

 

As for the vans, I've not seen any evidence of it elsewhere but it could have been one of those 'local' decisions, governed perhaps by the particular grade of sand, air currents around the train, and all sorts of other things that you could make up to suit

I read of the vans in the first of the Hendry Goods Wagons in Colour books, on re-reading it the caption it does refer to the problem being associated with higher speeds. I think the air currents within the tunnel may require a van as barrier on the loaded trains though

 

Thanks

[Mark Forrest]

Middleton Towers (Norfolk) and Fen Drayton (Cambs) used 21t hoppers on at least some trains in the 70s and 80s.

Thanks Rangers, I think the hoppers would have probably still been in use on iron ore or coal traffic during the period I'm interested here though.

 

Cheers

[Mark Forrest]

I should perhaps explain a bit more background to the supposed traffic flow on the layout. The sand traffic from Cheadle (Staffs) lasted into the '80s although I'm unsure when it actually started. I'm not sure whether the tipplers recorded with "EMPTY TO CONGLETON LMR" markings would have been allocated to work in the area from new (c1951) or if they arrived at a later date.

I'd be interested to know the destinations of the Cheadle sand trains as I guess that might help with the wagons used question too.

 

Cheers

[sulzer27jd]

16T minerals were certainly used and I remember seeing some with slots (approx 6x2") cut in the sides about 2/3 of the way up. Apparently as sand is so much heavier than say coal the wagon would be overloaded if filled to the top, so the slot was to show when the wagon was "full" by allowing excess to run out. Or at least give a visible marker for filling. They were marked for SAND traffic.

Must see if I can find the photographs.

 

John

[roythebus]

When I worked at Rugby in 1973/74, we used to work the "Redhill Sand" from Willesden to Rugby and Rugby to Crewe, and the return empties.

 

The train was always Hornby Dublo type unfitted hoppers, sometimes with a barrier van by the brake van for protection from flying sand. The train was limited to 35mph as unfitted. I asked why it couldn't run with fitted stock at higher speed, and it seems the fine sand could not be covered as it then became explosive, hence 35mph in open tippers.

 

ISTR class 33s were used to bring the train from Redhill Quarry to Willesden yard. Where the train went to beyond Crewe I don't know, but probably one of the glassworks in the area.

[Mark Forrest]

16T minerals were certainly used and I remember seeing some with slots (approx 6x2") cut in the sides about 2/3 of the way up. Apparently as sand is so much heavier than say coal the wagon would be overloaded if filled to the top, so the slot was to show when the wagon was "full" by allowing excess to run out. Or at least give a visible marker for filling. They were marked for SAND traffic.

Must see if I can find the photographs.

 

John

Thanks John, that's very interesting. I seem to remember from my 'spotting days in the mid/late 80s seeing 16T minerals with these slots but had always assumed these were for ballast spoil rather than sand. Would be great to see any photos you have.

I used to see a train of these passing my local station (between Stafford and Wolves) and, if I remember correctly, it sometimes had a Peak on the front; not sure if I ever photographed it though

Cheers

[Mark Forrest]

When I worked at Rugby in 1973/74, we used to work the "Redhill Sand" from Willesden to Rugby and Rugby to Crewe, and the return empties.

 

The train was always Hornby Dublo type unfitted hoppers, sometimes with a barrier van by the brake van for protection from flying sand. The train was limited to 35mph as unfitted. I asked why it couldn't run with fitted stock at higher speed, and it seems the fine sand could not be covered as it then became explosive, hence 35mph in open tippers.

 

Thanks Roythebus; the photo I've seen of the van on the back of the sand train was taken at Rugby in '71

 

ISTR class 33s were used to bring the train from Redhill Quarry to Willesden yard. Where the train went to beyond Crewe I don't know, but probably one of the glassworks in the area.

Another photo in the same book shows an AL5 on one of these workings; caption says these ran from Redhill - Ravenhead Junc conveying "high quality silicon sand for Pilkington's".

 

Cheers

[Pennine MC]

Thanks John, that's very interesting. I seem to remember from my 'spotting days in the mid/late 80s seeing 16T minerals with these slots but had always assumed these were for ballast spoil rather than sand. Would be great to see any photos you have.

 

 

The ZHVs (ex-MCV and MXV) are certainly well documented as being for engineers spoil use (with a few branded for 'clean stone'); the slots were indeed to prevent overloading, as wet spoil is very heavy. It's quite possible of course that they carried sand for the engineers, but I doubt if they were used for revenue traffic with that commodity; I'd certainly be interested in any photographic proof.

 

 

Although this is all very interesting, there's a noticeable lack of anything fresh concerning Mark's 1950s queries.

 

The sand traffic from Cheadle (Staffs) lasted into the '80s although I'm unsure when it actually started. I'm not sure whether the tipplers recorded with "EMPTY TO CONGLETON LMR" markings would have been allocated to work in the area from new (c1951) or if they arrived at a later date.

 

Dave Larkin has a lot of that sort of info - I dont think I have the relevant data sheet but it might be in one of his Kestrel books. Will check when I have time

[Swindon 123]

Mark Forrest wrote,

Secondly, I'm aware that by the '70s a van was often marshalled between the last wagon and the guards van to protect the guard from being sand blasted

This was also the case on coal trains running from the Crewe area to South Wales. A lot of it was very fine stuff and used to find its way into every nook and cranny in a brake van so a van was added to try and stop the problem. Very hit and miss as to the provision of one as some guards would insist on it whilst some didn't care, just wanting to get back to home depot.

 

Pennine MC wrote,

The ZHVs (ex-MCV and MXV) are certainly well documented as being for engineers spoil use (with a few branded for 'clean stone'); the slots were indeed to prevent overloading, as wet spoil is very heavy. It's quite possible of course that they carried sand for the engineers, but I doubt if they were used for revenue traffic with that commodity; I'd certainly be interested in any photographic proof.

This is indeed the case. The use of 16T minerals in engineers use started in the 80's with the general withdrawl of unfitted wagons. Untill then the only ones that existed with side holes were a few "Ingot Mould" carriers with very large holes cut in them. I only ever saw ZHV's in use as spoil carriers as their high sides made them unsuitable for unloading "on site". Materials going to site such as sand usually arrived in grampus or ex LMS/BR medfit wagons.

As already mentioned sand was carried in 21T hoppers from the likes on Fen Drayton to Kings Cross and Marks Tey and Southminster to Bow, the last two flows also used ex iron ore hoppers. The use of iron ore hoppers started before the 70's I think, someone may correct me on that, but the BR version and the earlier PO/BR type (as provided by Mainline/Bachmann) where used and lettered as "Sand". Some iron ore tipplers also where used in this traffic along with MTV's which I think where built with sand traffic in mind. All this info is most probably of no use for the period that Mark Forrest is interested in although I seem to remember something regarding a batch of LNER steel opens being modified with sealed up doors for a specific traffic which may have been sand. I'm sure some where labelled as such. These may just fit into Marks period.

 

Paul J.

[Mark Forrest]

Dave Larkin has a lot of that sort of info - I dont think I have the relevant data sheet but it might be in one of his Kestrel books. Will check when I have time

 

There's nothing specific in the first two volumes of the "Wagons of the British Railways Era" series on the "empty to.." markings; other than an official BR shot of B746609 branded "EMPTY TO LEIGHTON BUZZARD LMR".

 

In "Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era" he lists the following types as being used for sand traffic:

PO opens (?? a specific type or plain old wooden ex-PO coal type??)

16T Minerals

27T Iron Ore tipplers

cut-down 20T Coke hoppers

21T Coal hoppers

25 1/2T Iron Ore hoppers

 

What is unclear is whether this list relates to the 1955-61 review period of the book or is a general comment covering a later time period. From my point of view I'd be really interested to find out if any of these were in use in Staffordshire in the late '50s.

[Mark Forrest]

... a batch of LNER steel opens being modified with sealed up doors for a specific traffic which may have been sand. I'm sure some where labelled as such. These may just fit into Marks period.

Thanks Paul.

There's a photo in another of Dave Larkin's books of a LNER design high with modified doors (not sealed but additional bars to prevent accidental opening of the doors) described as a "13T bulk powder open (special type)". The one in the photo (B489177) is coded SAND but the caption states others were used for soda ash. The wagon appears to have been painted post-1964 so difficult to say when the conversion was carried out (photo is dated 1969).

 

Cheers

[Mark Forrest]

In "Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era" he lists the following types as being used for sand traffic:

PO opens (?? a specific type or plain old wooden ex-PO coal type??)

16T Minerals

27T Iron Ore tipplers

cut-down 20T Coke hoppers

21T Coal hoppers

25 1/2T Iron Ore hoppers

 

What is unclear is whether this list relates to the 1955-61 review period of the book or is a general comment covering a later time period. From my point of view I'd be really interested to find out if any of these were in use in Staffordshire in the late '50s.

 

I gather the conversion of the cut-down 20T Coke hoppers took place in 1966 so can rule these out for the period in question.

[finelines]

I was born within 200 yards of the sidings for Holmethorpe sand quarry on the Brighton line. The wagons used started off in the 50??™s with ex-private owners in stunningly poor condition. I have never seen the rotting wood and faint paint accurately captured on a model.

 

These were progressively replaced by BR mineral wagons. At some stage, I believed before the end of steam, but I now think I??™m wrong, with Iron Ore Hoppers. They were initially the older pre-nationalisation style, but they were replaced by the more modern BR built ones. When they first arrived they were labelled Iron Ore. The attached picture was definitely taken in the 1980??™s.

 

 

 

 

The sand was sent to St Helens for optical glass, although how much got there I don??™t know because the sidings at Merstham, Holmethorpe and Redhill were knee deep in sand.

 

At some stage there was a strike and the railways lost the traffic, but the quarry was almost worked out. The traffic did return with PAA(?) hoppers in BIS white livery with a Camel on. I also have a picture somewhere with a Railease hopper as well.

 

Never ever saw a sand tippler!

 

Roger

 

 

[eastwestdivide]

Not the location that the OP was asking about, but there was sand traffic from somewhere near Mark's Tey to between Stratford and Liverpool Street around 1980, using that type of hopper. Just going to look for some photos.

Edit: filing system came up trumps: photos not that good, but HJV B439641 and uncoded B438207 at Stratford in 1982, the latter in grey, but vacuum-fitted.

Also on sand traffic I think, at Warrington in 1983, HKV B437644, and HJV B439010.

Also at Warrington 1982, B437742 HKV branded "SAND"

[Pennine MC]

In "Wagons of the Middle British Railways Era" he lists the following types as being used for sand traffic:

PO opens (?? a specific type or plain old wooden ex-PO coal type??)

 

I was going to say maybe specific sand company ones that hadnt been pooled during the War, but Roger's post suggest maybe they were just the usual P-fleet coal wagons (although maybe 5 plankers were favoured, on the grounds of overloading)?

 

There's a photo in another of Dave Larkin's books of a LNER design high with modified doors (not sealed but additional bars to prevent accidental opening of the doors) described as a "13T bulk powder open (special type)". The one in the photo (B489177) is coded SAND but the caption states others were used for soda ash. The wagon appears to have been painted post-1964 so difficult to say when the conversion was carried out (photo is dated 1969).

 

The sealed door ones were (according to Dave) for 'beach' or shingle traffic, from somewhere in the SE (Dungeness springs to mind but I might be mistaken). The soda ash ones were something else, with some being built specifically and others converted

 

 

I gather the conversion of the cut-down 20T Coke hoppers took place in 1966 so can rule these out for the period in question.

 

Those were definitely used in E Anglia, IIRC from St Ives; I've seen a mag shot c1969 of some behind a 37. My contender for BR's ugliest wagon B)

[Mark Forrest]

Thanks again for all the replies and info. I guess the abrasive nature of the load did nothing to improve the condition of those private owners!

 

Did a bit more research (well Googling anyway) this afternoon have come across this site which (towards the bottom of the page) suggests there were 100 sand wagons built by the LMS between 1931 and 1947.

http://www.caley.com/lmss/wagons.shtml

 

Does anybody have any further info on these as they sound like likely candidates?

[Fat Controller]

I recollect seeing a 16t mineral lettered 'SAND' at BSC Landore in 1973- the lettering was in the unboxed, pre-1964 style, which suggests that it had carried that livery for some time. It didn't have slots in the side, but was in noticeably better condition than most of the surrounding 16 tonners, suggesting it had avoided being used for coal traffic. Incidentally, the 'Ingot Mould wagons were based there- they were 27t tipplers, not 16t minerals.

Pilkingtons had their own fleet of (dark green?)wooden-bodied doorless tipplers, which lasted well into BR days, I believe, whilst United Glass Bottle Manufacturers had 13t opens, if Hornby-Dublo were to be believed.

Sand was used in a number of different industries. Acid-washed to remove ferruginous impurities, it was used in glass-making. Simply water-washed, dried and graded, it was variously used for mould-making in iron foundries, and as the abrasive component of household scouring products- this latter being the reason for traffic to Warrington, I believe. When I was at Landore, we used to get sand in bulk powder (road) tankers from Chelford and Oakamoor for the foundry- both pits also supplied the various glassworks around St Helens, the difference being the post-extraction treatment.

[roythebus]

Mark Forrest says: Thanks again for all the replies and info. I guess the abrasive nature of the load did nothing to improve the condition of those private owners!

 

No doubt it worked wonders for the tractive abilities of following trains, especially in autumn. Who needed sandite in those days??

[Mark Forrest]

I recollect seeing a 16t mineral lettered 'SAND' at BSC Landore in 1973- the lettering was in the unboxed, pre-1964 style, which suggests that it had carried that livery for some time. It didn't have slots in the side, but was in noticeably better condition than most of the surrounding 16 tonners, suggesting it had avoided being used for coal traffic. Incidentally, the 'Ingot Mould wagons were based there- they were 27t tipplers, not 16t minerals.

Pilkingtons had their own fleet of (dark green?)wooden-bodied doorless tipplers, which lasted well into BR days, I believe, whilst United Glass Bottle Manufacturers had 13t opens, if Hornby-Dublo were to be believed.

Sand was used in a number of different industries. Acid-washed to remove ferruginous impurities, it was used in glass-making. Simply water-washed, dried and graded, it was variously used for mould-making in iron foundries, and as the abrasive component of household scouring products- this latter being the reason for traffic to Warrington, I believe. When I was at Landore, we used to get sand in bulk powder (road) tankers from Chelford and Oakamoor for the foundry- both pits also supplied the various glassworks around St Helens, the difference being the post-extraction treatment.

 

Thanks for the info Brian; those Pilkingtons and United Glass tipplers/opens sound interesting. Doing a bit more Googling of "Pilkington tippler" and I came across this site, which contains some useful info:

 

http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/m-sand.htm

 

Interesting that the sand at Landore came by road as I gather BIS Oakamoor was still despatching sand by rail (to United Glass) into the mid-80s apparently changing from HKVs and MTVs to air braked hoppers in 1986.

 

Incidently, I gather that the Cheadle sand traffic that I'm interested in ceased in about 1978.

 

Cheers

[Fat Controller]

Thanks for the info Brian; those Pilkingtons and United Glass tipplers/opens sound interesting. Doing a bit more Googling of "Pilkington tippler" and I came across this site, which contains some useful info:

 

http://www.igg.org.uk/gansg/12-linind/m-sand.htm

 

Interesting that the sand at Landore came by road as I gather BIS Oakamoor was still despatching sand by rail (to United Glass) into the mid-80s apparently changing from HKVs and MTVs to air braked hoppers in 1986.

 

Incidently, I gather that the Cheadle sand traffic that I'm interested in ceased in about 1978.

 

Cheers

We used relatively small amounts of sand at Landore (one or two tankers per week), as a lot of sand was reclaimed when the moulds were broken- molasses was added to the sand to help it hold together, btw- so it wouldn't be worth forwarding it by rail. St Helens/Warrington were taking ten times that every day- by 1978, I was working by the Stoke end of the Leek branch, and would see a Class 24 pass a couple of times a day with a train of hoppers. Until about 1976, a few cattle wagons were retained as fitted head/barrier wagons, being replaced by banana vans and ex-Ford Palvans- Paul Bartlett's site has photos of all of these.

I only once saw a photo of a train on the Cheadle branch, and that was composed of 13t wooden-bodied opens (Hyfits)- there must have been hope that the line might reopen, as the A50 (which opened in the late 1980s?) had a bridge over it, and there was still track in situ until quite recently.

[Ruston]

I asked why it couldn't run with fitted stock at higher speed, and it seems the fine sand could not be covered as it then became explosive, hence 35mph in open tippers.

 

That can't be right, can it? How can fine sand become explosive if it's covered? I've heard of fine dust for otherwise ordinary materials, such as flour, becoming explosive but they are actually combustible so it's understandable but how does sand explode under any circumstances?

 

Didn't BIS run some privately owned and air-braked PAA covered hoppers at one time? I don't think any of those exploded.

[RANGERS]

That can't be right, can it? How can fine sand become explosive if it's covered? I've heard of fine dust for otherwise ordinary materials, such as flour, becoming explosive but they are actually combustible so it's understandable but how does sand explode under any circumstances?

 

Didn't BIS run some privately owned and air-braked PAA covered hoppers at one time? I don't think any of those exploded.

 

A load of powder under a sheet, which would allow a flow of air through the powder, would become flammable and in a confined space potentially explosive if it was ignited. The air provides a supply of oxygen and the powdered sand a fuel source. Try blowing sand vigourously across a naked flame and see what happens!