What are 'Hex Frog Juicers'?

[Suzie]

Hi Jane

 

Here is how you connect all the frogs together in this scenario so that you don't need a frog juicer:-

 

 

It is a bit complex so the diagram has ended up a bit messy, but the eight points just have to have their frogs switched normally and the crossing frogs connected to them as per the diagram and you will be fine as long as you don't set any conflicting diagonal routes. Conflicting diagonal routes would be both red diagonals, both green diagonals or a red diagonal that crosses a green diagonal.

 

Diagonals take priority over straight through tracks and the points at both ends of a diagonal need to be switched together.

 

It is probably sufficiently complex that a mimic diagram might be in order to see the available routes that have been set.

 

The nearest DC equivalent of a juicer is the type of automatic switch which is pre-empted by a sensor of some sort to switch the frog like an IRDOT with relay and delay for example (which can be used on DCC too).

[Guest]

I know Jane was asking in relation to DC, not DCC, but IMHO, Suzie's diagram above is the perfect advert for frog juicers... what an absolute nightmare (speaking as someone who derives no pleasure at all from wiring - I'd rather just play trains).

[melmerby]

Hi Jane

 

Here is how you connect all the frogs together in this scenario so that you don't need a frog juicer:-

 

 

The nearest DC equivalent of a juicer is the type of automatic switch which is pre-empted by a sensor of some sort to switch the frog like an IRDOT with relay and delay for example (which can be used on DCC too).

If you are not DCC and have a panel with switches all that is needed is a three way switch with contacts to operate the points in pairs and using the inbuilt frog switches on e.g. Tortoise point motors to switch the appropriate frogs.

Then you could have: Mid position of switch - all straight. Left postion - top left to bottom right. Right position - Bottom left to top right.

 

This is how I tested mine to verify frog switching before connecting to the point motor decoders.

 

Keith

[melmerby]

I'm finding that a bit confusing, is there a prototype for it?

 

Try this for complexity:

http://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1155.htm

http://warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrbsh1167.htm

 

There are many scissors crossings on the bottom diagram.

 

Keith

[Budgie]

Suzie, thank you for your diagram. Unfortunately, it seems to be for up and down tracks wired in the same direction, whereas I am going to wire them in opposite directions (for example with all the diamonds next to the points the V crossing nearest the point frogs do not need insulating fishplates, because they will always be the same polarity as the points' stock rails that they are joined to). However, I shall use it as a basis for an attempt to figure out what wires go where. It should be possible to avoid setting conflicting routes; the DCC Concepts diagram for wiring the standard scissors crossover incorporates this such that if you want to set a route that conflicts with what is already set you have to have to reset all points to straight first.

 

Pete, although I was asking in relation to DC, my main method of energising the layout will be DCC. However, I was thinking of making things as general as possible so I could run it on DC for testing purposes. As you suggest, though, this does look like a nightmare, and dividing the layout into sections so DC trains could be controlled individually would be even more of a nightmare, so I shall stick to DCC control.

 

I think my next task is to make a colour-coded diagram showing the rails.

 

Of course, I might just give up, wire it with frog juicers, and build a DC test track to run a foot or so under the main layout.

[Suzie]

Hi Jane

 

In the scenario where up and down (I assume red wired one way and green wired the other) occurs there is no need to switch the frog polarity on crossings where green crosses red because they will always be at the same polarity, in this case it is the 'K' crossing that has to be switched instead. All quite straightforward.

 

If on the other hand the top red is wired one way and the bottom red the other (similarly with the green) you have a 'return loop' scenario which needs to be managed first.

 

Going for DC where there is potential (even a likelyhood) for the four tracks to be supplied from seperate feeds the wiring does become very complex indeed to supply the correct power routing to the frogs and you cannot simply connect frogs together. If just running as a test track for DC with all sections live from the same source as DCC it will work fine using the 'connected frog' method but not with juicers.

[Suzie]

...Suzie's diagram above is the perfect advert for frog juicers... what an absolute nightmare...

 

It looks a lot more complex than it is. Because there are so many frogs you end up with 'frog busses'. There are just six locations where all the frog droppers have to be connected to - I dread to think how much the alternative of twenty four frog juicers would cost from most suppliers! The frog juicers used on the eight crossings would need to be paired as well, installing juicers in this scenario will take quite a bit of planning too.

 

Let us think now, what is simpler:-

 

1. Buy four hex frog juicers (£232 from Coastal DCC - ouch)

2. Configure 2/3 of them as pairs

3. Install them on the layout

4. Connect frogs to the juicers being sure to connect them to the correct outlets

 

Around two or three hours to install I suspect.

 

or

 

1. Fit frog switches to the points that operate with the point motors (step 1 is optional but recommended!)

2. Connect the frog wires in to six bundles as per my (rather scruffy) diagram above.

 

About half an hour if your point motor solution includes the frog switches leaving time for a bit of relaxation.

 

Juicers might be marketed as the easy option, but they are not always the easy option.

[Guest]

Thanks for that Suzie. I do often look at replies/solutions to electrical conundrums on RMWeb and yours do feature quite often! I am full of admiration (and sometimes a little envy) for those with an understanding of complex wiring, but I'm just one of those folk who struggles to "get" electrics on anything more than a very basic level. I think that if you don't fully understand something, you can never get enjoyment from it, so that's why I'll take the lazy option even if it hurts my pocket a bit (or a lot) more. It does give me more time to concentrate on the aspects of layout-building that I do enjoy. Don't get me wrong, I do wish I could look at a wiring diagram for something and not glaze over! It would certainly be cheaper and no doubt quite satisfying too. Maybe Tam Valley has found a niche for folk like me, I'm certainly not suggesting juicers are in any way essential, just sometimes convenient. I needed two hex juicers for my last layout (the first time I've used Electrofrog) and it really was a stress-free case of "fit and forget", and they seem to work fine.

[Glorious NSE]

Suzie, surely you could wire it the same way with one hex and a dual...

[Suzie]

Suzie, surely you could wire it the same way with one hex and a dual...

 

You could.

 

There are lots of ways to do it.

[298]

Just out of interest, but is there an issue with two adjoining rails connected to juicers...? Such as a turnout leading straight onto a diamond.

[Suzie]

For a diamond you will need a hex or twin juicer so that you can configure a pair.

[tender]

Just out of interest, but is there an issue with two adjoining rails connected to juicers...? Such as a turnout leading straight onto a diamond.

 

Can be, see http://www.tamvalleydepot.com/images/Hex_Frog_Juicer_Manual_v1_5_2p.pdf  page two for explanation.

 

A turnout leading to a diamond should be ok as the frogs will usually be on opposite side of the rail. i.e. not in series.

[barrymx5]

I have used a single Frog Juicer successfully with a point where the peco clip on polarity switch was unreliable. I am now installing a 70ft Helljan turntable which is Analogue. I have no problem with the Turntable motor working off a 12V DC supply but now wish to put DCC from my Digitrax on to the turntable track. I understand that can be done with a juicer. But does that mean a double juicer? If so does one frog connection go to each turntable track? I already have one single Juicer not in use. Is this useful for the turntable project?

Is this an alternative to fitting a loco type decoder to the turntable drive? (There are numerous references on the web to converting the analogue Walther turntable to DCC and I understand the Walther and Helljan are the same beast. I may go down this route later but as a first step thought I would simply use the Helljan analogue turntable controller with juicer. )

Any thoughts or help appreciated.

[Suzie]

You need a pair of juicers configured as a pair (either a twin or a third of a hex) to power the deck.

 

As for motorising, you probably need a simple loco decoder for simple control, or you will need a full indexing solution.

[barrymx5]

You need a pair of juicers configured as a pair (either a twin or a third of a hex) to power the deck.

 

As for motorising, you probably need a simple loco decoder for simple control, or you will need a full indexing solution.

Many thanks Suzie. . I will purchase a twin juicer and do as you suggest.

[barrymx5]

Many thanks Suzie. . I will purchase a twin juicer and do as you suggest.

Suzie many thanks again. I have now installed the double juicer on the turntable and it works a treat. Delighted.

[250BOB]

Has anyone tried the Gaugemaster DCC80 frog juicer.......they work out at half the price of a Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer.

 

Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer £65.... does 6 frogs.

Gaugmaster 2 x 3 pack DCC80 ... less than £30

 

Are these a good buy.??

[Ron Ron Ron]

Has anyone tried the Gaugemaster DCC80 frog juicer.......they work out at half the price of a Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer.

 

Tam Valley Hex Frog Juicer £65.... does 6 frogs.

Gaugmaster 2 x 3 pack DCC80 ... less than £30

 

Are these a good buy.??

 

 

They are certainly much cheaper...

 

Gaugemaster DCC80 - £5.50

Tam Valley Mono Frog Juicer - £11.50

 

2 x DCC80 - £11.00

(3 pack x DCC80 - £14.00)

Dual Frog Juicer - £24.50

 

However, the Gaugemaster product appears to be relay based, as opposed to Tam Valley's all-electronic devices.

Will the DCC80 work successfully with DCC systems that have ultra fast short protection?

 

 

 

.

[250BOB]

They are certainly much cheaper...

 

Gaugemaster DCC80 - £5.50

Tam Valley Mono Frog Juicer - £11.50

 

2 x DCC80 - £11.00

(3 pack x DCC80 - £14.00)

Dual Frog Juicer - £24.50

 

However, the Gaugemaster product appears to be relay based, as opposed to Tam Valley's all-electronic devices.

Will the DCC80 work successfully with DCC systems that have ultra fast short protection?

 

 

 

.

 

Thanks Ron.......I wondered if there was some reservation because of the price..??

I would be curious to hear if it does work on DCC...after all its name is DCC80, sort of implies its ok for DCC.???

[Ron Ron Ron]

...........I would be curious to hear if it does work on DCC...after all its name is DCC80, sort of implies its ok for DCC.???

 

 

It only works on DCC Bob.

 

What I asked, is "will the DCC80 work successfully with DCC systems that have ultra fast short protection"?

i.e. would the system's short protection react to a short quicker than the relay based DCC80, thus shutting power off before the DCC80 had done its job?

 

 

 

.

[Talltim]

It does work, if both points are reversed you are using the curve and not using the diamond - how the frog polarities are set on the diamond is irrelevent since both possible routes through the diamond have a point set against them and neither can be used. When both points are normal you have set two conflicting routes through the diamond, you can only use one of the routes or trains will collide so you just have to select the route you are going to use by setting the point reversed on the unused route.

 

If you are using solenoids you can make a nice simple mimic diagram NX panel with the four operating buttons for the two points being a button on each leg of the diagram to set the route through the junction - just press the button on the entry leg and then the button on the exit leg and the route will be set.

 

Modular meets are about operating, it is not a bad thing to operate the junction like the real railway. Just think of the junction as being a single slip!

Revisiting this, still don't understand your logic. Having the points set for the chord doesn't stop the diamond being in use.

[250BOB]

It only works on DCC Bob.

 

What I asked, is "will the DCC80 work successfully with DCC systems that have ultra fast short protection"?

i.e. would the system's short protection react to a short quicker than the relay based DCC80, thus shutting power off before the DCC80 had done its job?

 

 

 

.

 

Hi Ron,

I'm with you now........... my pals system is a Gaugemaster Prodigy...so you would imagine the DCC80 it is suitable for a layout operated by this system.....wouldn't you??

I use Tam valley Hex Frog Juicers on my Lenz system very successfully...my pal is a little bit more price conscious and if the DCC80 does the same job cheaper, he would go for that.

Bob

[Budgie]

Isn't it time someone made an equivalent Frog juicer for DC? OK, it couldn't work on track voltage as the DCC ones do, but it would have to have its own supply. it would be very useful nevertheless.

[Glorious NSE]

Revisiting this, still don't understand your logic. Having the points set for the chord doesn't stop the diamond being in use.

lake freemo.jpg

The blue and green could also conceivably be the same train, if the scenario was a 'left-bound' train setting out cars to a spur to the south of the junction it would be perfectly acceptable to leave the rest of the train where the green cars are whilst the power (blue) went round the curve to work. Connecting the diamond frogs to one or other of the points in that scenario just doesn't work with how the prototype could most easily be worked.