Relco - Do they get hot and are they worth it?

[Black Sheep]

Just about to wire my layout up, it's a small, single loop, N gauge shunting layout and I've got Relco salvaged from a previous layout.

 

I was wondering if anyone knew if the unit gets hot during use and if they're really worth fitting it?

 

I know it's not going to keep the layout completely clear and functioning, but as it's going to be cased in it won't be easy to clean it without dismantling the table to get in (not a huge job, just irritating)

 

What say ye?

 

Thanks

[Oldddudders]

Just about to wire my layout up, it's a small, single loop, N gauge shunting layout and I've got Relco salvaged from a previous layout.

 

I was wondering if anyone knew if the unit gets hot during use and if they're really worth fitting it?

 

I know it's not going to keep the layout completely clear and functioning, but as it's going to be cased in it won't be easy to clean it without dismantling the table to get in (not a huge job, just irritating)

 

What say ye?

 

Thanks

I last used a Relco in 1997, then I changed to DCC. I had two of them on my HO layout, and considered them worthwhile. I was not aware of them overheating in any way, but the little light on the top, which illuminated when the Relco had been invoked, did allow you to spot which bits of track were dodgy, so fairing it in might not be a great idea. I know very little about N gauge, but my instincts say current is lower and therefore overheating even less of an issue than in the larger scales.

[Kenton]

and if they're really worth fitting it?

 

A question almost certainly going to start a war on here.

 

There are two opposing views that will never see eye-2-eye.

 

I am very firmly in the NO camp. Definitely not worth it. But then I don't scratch the surface of my rails with one of those ghastly track rubbers or file it or use emery cloth on it - just a regular gentle wipe with isopropyl alcohol on a lint free cloth and of course only metal wheels.

 

The problem they cause is that they convert all organic matter (principally oils form your fingers, smoke, breath, atmosphere) at the spark into micro carbon deposits that are then hammered into the micro surface of the rail by the hammering pressure of the wheels. The only way to remove these carbon deposits is to use a track rubber or emery - and so you end up on a fast downward spiral to a poor track surface and no alternative but to use a spark machine even more - a self prophesying disaster.

 

On the other hand if you already destroy the surface of the rail - they work, in as much as they delay the period between having to get the sandpaper out.

 

There are plenty of others who do use them, swear by them an not at them - but just another one of those gimmicks and a waste of money along with the track rubbers IMO.

[Black Sheep]

as the layout is going to be encased, I don't think it's going to be subject to the same level of detritus as a layout out in the open as it were.

 

Thanks for your advice and opinions.

[Butler Henderson]

Used them with none the problems that others claim, on the otherhand I always made certain all stock was clean in the first place and if the light lit investigated why.

[Black Sheep]

Right, just wired it all up and it didn't work with the Relco in the circuit, The layout works without the Relco in the circuit however.

 

Having done a bit of googling, I've wired it wrong!

 

Apparently I should be wiring one controller feed directly to the track, the other via the left hand side of the unit, the 16V feed from my Gaugemaster Series E should go in to the unit at the left with a switch that allows me to turn it off.

 

Is anyone able to confirm this or know if the switch is necessary etc?

I'd like to avoid blowing anything up if I can

 

thanks

[Butler Henderson]

The instructions also referred to fitting a switch across the output terminals to bypass the unit. What I always did was to use a DPDT switch to switch it off and bypass it at the same time, useful to able to switch it off whilst investigating a track problem as it can otherise decide that you need cleaning!

[Suzie]

The Relco does get warm in operation, but it should be nothing to worry about. I never bother with the switches - just use the wiring method where you connect 16V AC in one end, and put the other end in series with the track feed. Don't forget to put the capacitor across your controller output, you don't want to clean the inside of your controller.

 

I consider a Relco to be indispensable on a DC layout, track cleaning is just a horrendous and ineffective chore otherwise. Driving trains is much more fun than endless track cleaning - the neon light on the Relco will tell you where any areas that need extra attention are.

[Fat Controller]

They are very good at stopping cats using a garden line as a bed...

[Black Sheep]

The Relco does get warm in operation, but it should be nothing to worry about. I never bother with the switches - just use the wiring method where you connect 16V AC in one end, and put the other end in series with the track feed. Don't forget to put the capacitor across your controller output, you don't want to clean the inside of your controller.

 

I consider a Relco to be indispensable on a DC layout, track cleaning is just a horrendous and ineffective chore otherwise. Driving trains is much more fun than endless track cleaning - the neon light on the Relco will tell you where any areas that need extra attention are.

Due to where the layout is and how it is built I wont be able to see the relco's light, would this be an issue?

 

What capacitor? I only have a relco unit and no instructions.

[Butler Henderson]

You can find the instructions posted in the fifth reply in this thread

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/5766-relco-wiring-help/

[Guest Natalie Graham]

 

I was wondering if anyone knew if the unit gets hot during use and if they're really worth fitting it?

If you are wanting it purely for its heating capabilities then an electric radiator would probably be a better proposition.

 

I remember, many years ago, the first meeting of a newly reformed model railway club that had been moribund for several years. One of the original members brought along the club's N gauge layout which had been in his loft since the club folded. Without cleaning the track he connected up an old H&M controller and a Relco and put a Farish loco on the track. With a lot of sparking and pushing by hand the loco eventually completed a circuit. Second time around the movement was a bit staccato and the odd prod with a finger was needed but it ran better. Third time around, apart from the odd hesitation, the loco ran around unaided and after that it ran perfectly. It was certainly a good demonstration of the Relco's ability to clean track.

[Suzie]

Due to where the layout is and how it is built I wont be able to see the relco's light, would this be an issue?

 

What capacitor? I only have a relco unit and no instructions.

 

The capacitor is something like 0.1uF 50V ceramic,  and not too critical of value.

 

If you cannot see the light you can add a neon extension lamp, just connect it across the track terminals of the Relco. Neon indicators can often be salvaged from old electrical equipment - I had an old neon nixie tube on my control panel from a redundant desk calculator that lit up with the number of the controller which was quite fun - the technology of the 1950s rather matched my antique DC controller.

[37114]

I Used to use a Relco but have now converted to feedback controllers which are so much better, but at the end of the day there is no substitute for properly cleanded track, ideally using IPA not anything abrassive.

[Legend]

I got the Hammant and Morgan versions. They don't run hot, but I find them very useful running my large loft layout. Mind you I also think that this as something to do with the type of material used in loco wheels and rails. Certainly models sourced in then last 10-15 years seem better than 1980s Hornby ones.

[Titan]

The most useful aspect of a relco is getting a stationary engine to move without having to prod it with a finger.  Unfortunatly if you are double heading or have coaches with lighting you need everything to be on some dirt for the relco to work, which does not happen much!

 

Having said that, its worth its weight in gold for making trains go - I have a terminus with an overall roof and for making sure that the locos can be reversed off the buffers without having to lift the roof and prod them is a god send!

 

They only run hot when there is nothing on the track for any time and the light is constantly lit.

[alan_parkes]

After much trepidation I have recently installed a Gaugemaster HF-2 twin track electronic track cleaner on my small twin track roundy-roundy layout with sidings etc.

I am using it in conjunction with a Gaugemaster DS twin track controller with simulation.

I have been very pleasantly surprised by the performance of all my locos, old and new,  with the electronic cleaner operating.

It does not get hot (as some have reported) but the locos' performance is much more controllable at low speed, and no hesitations at turnouts etc.

Another vote for Gaugemaster from me.

[DCB]

I have used Relcos for 30 odd years and they work extremely well and would heartily recommend them.   They work well with resistance controls providing better starting but we use them with variable voltage controllers OnTrack and Hammant and Morgan Variable Transformers which give beautifully smooth slow speed running on track that has not been cleaned for weeks,  Obviously they can't cope with thick layers of traction tyre gunge but generally they seem better at coping with ordinary run of the mill grime than PWM control and the locos run much smoother.  They aren't a universal panacea, but if you want to spend your train time running trains instead of cleaning track they are an excellent investment.

 

I have never known one get hot but ours are very well ventilated anyway.

Edited March 30, 2017 by DavidCBroad

[Pete the Elaner]

Due to where the layout is and how it is built I wont be able to see the relco's light, would this be an issue?

 

What capacitor? I only have a relco unit and no instructions.

A friend of mine wired up a Relco without the capacitor. I think he just experimented until it worked.

This was on a Underground layout with limited access.

It gave me a painful shock with an accompanying expletive every time I tried to re-rail a loco.

[Clive Davies]

Excellent forum, I looked with great interest on the subject of ECM Compspeed Controllers.

I have been using a pair of these for years on my twin track layout. But I've always wondered what I would do if either or both failed. So decided to draw up a diagram with all components listed.

I got a bit stumped by the IC as the number was only partially visible. CD 4001 as mentioned in the forum does not appear to be whats marked on mine, but of course I could be wrong and probably am. The part that can be read is RCA 449 ( I thought I detected a 1 in front of the 4 but nothing comes up on the net with that number but 449 does). The number above RCA 449 I think starts with CD and looks like it ends with RE. Both units were purchased at the same time and are the CA direction switch type. Picture included as best as I could get it of the offending chip.

Also have original instructions and my own component diagrams and diagrams of the copper side and component side with all relevant drill holes if anybody wants them. With a bit of circuit board and some ferric chloride you can make your own. I did that with the Optronic electronic ignition on my Ginetta car after I managed to fry the board and blow up half the components, (what a berk)

still I made a completely new one and 3 years later it sill runs fine, and I built a backup board as well, two for the price of one.

Also keen to hear peoples comments on the fact that I use Relcos with the Compspeed, I appreciate

not every body likes them, I also appreciate most people on this site have far more knowledge and expertise than I do. All my loco's are Hornby Dublo, many with vertical motors most of which I've re-wound myself and converted to neodymiam magnets. Generally they draw 0.4 amps at 10volts, this seems reasonable to me but others may think otherwise and improvements could be made ie: no Relcos, wrong controllers anyway etc. Again I must say, great site.

[AndyID]

Pretty sure it's a CD4001 CMOS quad NOR.  They are available from many sources. Does not have to be RCA.

[Tony Cane]

The 449 number is the batch number or date code for manufacture.

My recollection of this circuit is that a CD 4001 is used to create an oscillator that is the source of the drive pulses.

[Suzie]

The top row of text originally would have read CD4001BE before it wore off. The bottom row is just manufacturer specific and of no relevance to identify the part.

[rogerzilla]

I haven't used a Relco but I have used a Gaugemaster HF-2.  It's a shoddily-built thing (the circuit board is loose inside the case and rattles around!)  but slow running is incredible.  Even the old Hornby M7 tank, with a stone age X.04 motor, starts realistically.

[DCB]

We had mysterious bad running on the outside branch until I realised the E controller didn't have a Relco.  I bought one off eBay for £5 and fitted it to E which is half a Morley Vector and its working a lot better.   Our controllers are all 14 volt max variable voltage not 21 volt variable resistance or PWM so probably benefit from the high frequency more than gaugemasters and the like.   As in running without cleaning the track after rain.  If you enjoy cleaning track maybe a Relco isn't needed but to be honest life is too short to keep cleaning track, and apart from crud build up on some points our track doesn't need much cleaning.