Hornby supply and demand gremlins.

[unravelled]

Perhaps one of the Design Clever (Cheaper?) features is a combination of an unbushed chassis and an appropriately light weight. Whether adding significant amounts of extra weight will affect the life of the chassis remains to be seen.

 

I wonder what the Chinese will make of us adding lead to their products. Usually it's them being criticised for adding it where it shouldn't be.

 

Thanks

 

Dave (satisfied owner of a 72xx, with a 42xx on order)

[Horsetan]

...Stud contact in 2013?

 

Miniatur-Wunderland (Hamburg) swears by it. Look closely at their many kilometres of track. Virtually all of it is Marklin stud-contact.

[jonathan452]

 Looks as though it's not just Hornby who have gone down the 'design clever' route. Even if most RM Webbers are not 'aspiring middle class women'!

Marks and Spencer reeling over 'poor quality' fashion slump as chief executive faces pressure to stop the rot

• Chief executive Marc Bolland will be under great pressure from shareholders
• The group is set to report quarterly sales down 4.5 per cent

By Simon Watkins and Sam Masters

PUBLISHED:00:27, 7 April 2013| UPDATED:00:32, 7 April 2013

 

Marks & Spencer is reeling from a strategy disaster of poor-quality clothes aimed at the wrong customers, critics have warned, as the store prepares to register a slump in fashion sales.

Fashion-watchers, rivals and shoppers insisted the group needed to abandon cheap products and aim squarely at Britain’s aspiring middle-class women or risk losing ground.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2305175/Marks-Spencer-reeling-poor-quality-fashion-slump-chief-executive-faces-pressure-stop-rot.html#ixzz2PlWcuAt4

[Oldddudders]

Miniatur-Wunderland (Hamburg) swears by it. Look closely at their many kilometres of track. Virtually all of it is Marklin stud-contact.

And, like centre-third-rail, it is jolly reliable - but most RMwebbers wouldn't give it house-room, as it simply doesn't look as good. The traditional Disney-esque German exhibition layouts will continue to thrive on it, I'm sure, but Marklin's problems suggest the market is less enthusiastic and has increasingly moved on, rather as we have from the Hornby-Dublo 3-rail layouts of yore.

[byron]

And, like centre-third-rail, it is jolly reliable - but most RMwebbers wouldn't give it house-room, as it simply doesn't look as good. The traditional Disney-esque German exhibition layouts will continue to thrive on it, I'm sure, but Marklin's problems suggest the market is less enthusiastic and has increasingly moved on, rather as we have from the Hornby-Dublo 3-rail layouts of yore.

 

And yet Maerklin still sell 10 (yes 10) times more than any other model railway in German speaking lands. The big plus for Maerklin is, once bought, you have to stick with the system.

 

Disney-esque exhibition layouts, stop being so - expletive deleted - negative. They make a lot of money, and bring a lot of new people into our hobby. What turns you on in the world of model railways (or in the case of Hornby shall we say toy trains - look at the silly couplings and compare them to the European close coupling) may not get anyone else excited.

 

We all should enjoy this hobby as we want to. Arrogance, and the "I know better" or "Little Englander" attitudes just, as you may have noticed, makes me just a little angry.

 

Mike

[Horsetan]

..... The big plus for Maerklin is, once bought, you have to stick with the system. ....

Anyone see a parallel with Apple here?

[jjb1970]

Marklin 3 rail does run superbly, the running qualities are much better than 2 rail IMO. Whether the improvement in running is worth the visual compromise of the stud contacts is another story and I'd not swap two rail for the Marklin system but I can appreciate the appeal it still holds for some.

[jjb1970]

Looks as though it's not just Hornby who have gone down the 'design clever' route. Even if most RM Webbers are not 'aspiring middle class women'!

I'm not sure we can make this comparison yet. M&S seem to have compromised on quality when their whole appeal was they sold good solid clothes that would last even if not especially fashionable (I'm not a middle class woman but I bought a lot of my menswear from M&S!). Design clever is about reducing cost by reducing separately fitted parts, I believe abandoning 5 pole motors (and before attacking Hornby for that it is worth noting many of their competitors never adopted a 5 pole motor and consumers do not appear to be bothered by that particular change) and generally designing their products to be cheaper to produce. I think a better example may be the VW Golf, the Golf Mk.V was lauded as a superb car with great driving qualities, a nice cabin, very safe etc etc but VW spent far more building it than competitor cars that were basically just as good. The Mk.VI was a major face lift to reduce production costs whilst with the Mk.VII they designed it from the outset to be cheap and simple to make without the consumer noticing the cost cutting. If Hornby can replicate the same trick (and on the 2BIL I think they did a pretty good job) then there is no reason why the quality of the models should suffer. If they do follow a blunt cost cutting approach that affects quality then they'll suffer for it. Time will tell.

[Oldddudders]

And yet Maerklin still sell 10 (yes 10) times more than any other model railway in German speaking lands. The big plus for Maerklin is, once bought, you have to stick with the system.

 

Disney-esque exhibition layouts, stop being so - expletive deleted - negative. They make a lot of money, and bring a lot of new people into our hobby. What turns you on in the world of model railways (or in the case of Hornby shall we say toy trains - look at the silly couplings and compare them to the European close coupling) may not get anyone else excited.

 

We all should enjoy this hobby as we want to. Arrogance, and the "I know better" or "Little Englander" attitudes just, as you may have noticed, makes me just a little angry.

I'm not sure quite where your ire is directed, or why. You were the one who posted that Marklin and Roco had each fallen on hard times. I believe the former's continuing use of stud-contact limits their appeal to a wider market when 2-rail is so universal. You were the one who pointed out that Marklin is a single-source system, so their business-model must be predicated on their undoubted quality ethic - and brand loyalty. Not much margin for people to pull their belts in when times are hard - they simply buy less. You are content to pay, so you tell us, over £400 for the right loco, and no doubt that does buy a lot of quality, although as has been pointed out in this thread, European prices are significantly higher than those of the UK market. That is somewhat mysterious, since we are repeatedly told that the European market is far bigger than that of the UK. The Mistral X3800 Picassos I bought were about twice the RRP of an equivalent UK railcar - and those were the base model, which didn't even have a DCC socket. Mistral seems to be in difficulties right now. Even Hornby's subsidiary, Electrotren, has been pushing out Renault ABJ railcars at RRPs 50% higher than the UK would expect to pay. Yes, they are nice, but the discounting got silly - less than half-price is embarrassing. I believe future models for the French market will be branded Jouef - for all the difference that makes.

 

I am unclear what is so offensive about "Disney-esque". Disney is a highly successful brand that majors on widening kids' eyes with the colour and glamour of the presentation of a fantastic story. I see the German exhibition layouts as having the same idea, with bags of automated trains running through a deluxe landscape and Faller towns and villages. Am I wrong?

 

As for the sideswipe at "toy trains" Hornby couplings, well I suspect they are just as "stuck" with that as Marklin is with stud-contact - changing to something less obtrusive would alienate the existing customer base. And plenty of us simply change them to something more to our liking - Kadee in my case.

 

Finally the "little Englander" jibe is slightly amusing, as I haven't lived there for nearly a decade, and for most of the past 30 years my primary modelling interest has been US HO.

[Sidecar Racer]

I'm not sure quite where your ire is directed, or why. You were the one who posted that Marklin and Roco had each fallen on hard times. I believe the former's continuing use of stud-contact limits their appeal to a wider market when 2-rail is so universal. You were the one who pointed out that Marklin is a single-source system, so their business-model must be predicated on their undoubted quality ethic - and brand loyalty. Not much margin for people to pull their belts in when times are hard - they simply buy less. You are content to pay, so you tell us, over £400 for the right loco, and no doubt that does buy a lot of quality, although as has been pointed out in this thread, European prices are significantly higher than those of the UK market. That is somewhat mysterious, since we are repeatedly told that the European market is far bigger than that of the UK. The Mistral X3800 Picassos I bought were about twice the RRP of an equivalent UK railcar - and those were the base model, which didn't even have a DCC socket. Mistral seems to be in difficulties right now. Even Hornby's subsidiary, Electrotren, has been pushing out Renault ABJ railcars at RRPs 50% higher than the UK would expect to pay. Yes, they are nice, but the discounting got silly - less than half-price is embarrassing. I believe future models for the French market will be branded Jouef - for all the difference that makes.

 

I am unclear what is so offensive about "Disney-esque". Disney is a highly successful brand that majors on widening kids' eyes with the colour and glamour of the presentation of a fantastic story. I see the German exhibition layouts as having the same idea, with bags of automated trains running through a deluxe landscape and Faller towns and villages. Am I wrong?

 

As for the sideswipe at "toy trains" Hornby couplings, well I suspect they are just as "stuck" with that as Marklin is with stud-contact - changing to something less obtrusive would alienate the existing customer base. And plenty of us simply change them to something more to our liking - Kadee in my case.

 

Finally the "little Englander" jibe is slightly amusing, as I haven't lived there for nearly a decade, and for most of the past 30 years my primary modelling interest has been US HO.

 

I wish I could ' like ' this several times Ian .

[byron]

I'm not sure quite where your ire is directed, or why. You were the one who posted that Marklin and Roco had each fallen on hard times. I believe the former's continuing use of stud-contact limits their appeal to a wider market when 2-rail is so universal. You were the one who pointed out that Marklin is a single-source system, so their business-model must be predicated on their undoubted quality ethic - and brand loyalty. Not much margin for people to pull their belts in when times are hard - they simply buy less. You are content to pay, so you tell us, over £400 for the right loco, and no doubt that does buy a lot of quality, although as has been pointed out in this thread, European prices are significantly higher than those of the UK market. That is somewhat mysterious, since we are repeatedly told that the European market is far bigger than that of the UK. The Mistral X3800 Picassos I bought were about twice the RRP of an equivalent UK railcar - and those were the base model, which didn't even have a DCC socket. Mistral seems to be in difficulties right now. Even Hornby's subsidiary, Electrotren, has been pushing out Renault ABJ railcars at RRPs 50% higher than the UK would expect to pay. Yes, they are nice, but the discounting got silly - less than half-price is embarrassing. I believe future models for the French market will be branded Jouef - for all the difference that makes.

 

I am unclear what is so offensive about "Disney-esque". Disney is a highly successful brand that majors on widening kids' eyes with the colour and glamour of the presentation of a fantastic story. I see the German exhibition layouts as having the same idea, with bags of automated trains running through a deluxe landscape and Faller towns and villages. Am I wrong?

 

As for the sideswipe at "toy trains" Hornby couplings, well I suspect they are just as "stuck" with that as Marklin is with stud-contact - changing to something less obtrusive would alienate the existing customer base. And plenty of us simply change them to something more to our liking - Kadee in my case.

 

Finally the "little Englander" jibe is slightly amusing, as I haven't lived there for nearly a decade, and for most of the past 30 years my primary modelling interest has been US HO.

I appear to have mis-understood your post - please accept my apologies.

I can assure you that my parents were married.

 

Mike

[Oldddudders]

I appear to have mis-understood your post - please accept my apologies.

I can assure you that my parents were married.

 

Mike

Handsomely said! Not a problem.

[Robin Brasher]

The situation is not as gloomy as people are making out.  We do not need to rely on China to produce models. In N gauge Union Mills are producing excellent locomotives in the Isle of Man that cost the same as Graham Farish models. Peco's  GWR 0-6-0 locomotives are built in the UK. They cost twice as much as a Graham Farish 4F but are much better value for money. In 00 gauge the 00 Works has been building locomotives in the UK. Again they are more expensive than a Hornby model but the gap is narrowing. In 0 gauge Ace has been assembling models from parts made in India and in other parts of the World. Golden Age assembles models that are made in the Far East but not in China.

[dibber25]

The situation is not as gloomy as people are making out.  We do not need to rely on China to produce models. In N gauge Union Mills are producing excellent locomotives in the Isle of Man that cost the same as Graham Farish models. Peco's  GWR 0-6-0 locomotives are built in the UK. They cost twice as much as a Graham Farish 4F but are much better value for money. In 00 gauge the 00 Works has been building locomotives in the UK. Again they are more expensive than a Hornby model but the gap is narrowing. In 0 gauge Ace has been assembling models from parts made in India and in other parts of the World. Golden Age assembles models that are made in the Far East but not in China.

All these are very small runs compared to mass-produced models from Hornby and Bachmann. There really is no comparison in the production systems. Peco has one locomotive (the N 2251) and it is notable that they've left it to others to attempt the L&B 2-6-2T which would likely require much longer production runs than the Collett goods and is hugely more complex.

It wasn't so long ago that we were happy if we got an RTR model of a particular class of loco. Now we seem to expect mass-produced models with every tiny detail variation to suit individual members of that class. True, magazines and other reviewers played their part in pushing expectation ever-higher and to a large extent, every time the bar has been raised, the manufacturers have pushed it higher still. But a major factory which did a lot of this work is simply not there any more. Manufacturers have to 'cut their cloth' accordingly and we have to accept that for the time being at least the bar raising may well have stopped and our expectations need to be adjusted accordingly. Crying for the moon isn't an option.

CHRIS LEIGH

[Horsetan]

....Crying for the moon isn't an option.

 

....but we have wishlists instead.

[jjb1970]

Most of the models still made in the UK use materials such as brass, white metal and resin which have massively lower tooling costs than injection moulded plastic and nothing like the detail consumers expect and demand from Hornby, Bachmann, Heljan etc. I'd love to see manufacturing return to the UK but whilst labour costs are rising in Asia and shipping costs are a potential time bomb for companies with outsourced production I think we are still many years away from the economic equation changing anything like enough to make companies like Hornby bring manufacture back home. And what is even sadder, the UK has lost the skills and economic base to provide the machine tools you'd need and the skilled labour force so it is not as simple as just bying a factory unit in Margate.

[autocoach]

Then there could be a technology shift with 3d printing in colour. Custom ordering of the prototype, period and detail level. And WIFI controlled battery power locomotives with sound and steam effect. A forward looking enterprise in Margate might see China as only a temporary expediency. But the Barwell group is owned by Chinese factory interests and could be caught by a conflict....

[Adams442T]

Then there could be a technology shift with 3d printing in colour. Custom ordering of the prototype, period and detail level. And WIFI controlled battery power locomotives with sound and steam effect. A forward looking enterprise in Margate might see China as only a temporary expediency. But the Barwell group is owned by Chinese factory interests and could be caught by a conflict....

I agree Ken that at some future date these factors may alter production methods enormously, but................... Chinese manufacturers will most likely be in the forefront of such production anyway, at least outside of the 'cottage industry' sized maker.  And, from all I've seen, 3d printing still has a long way to go to approach the standards of injection moulding, though I've no doubt it will get there eventually, and at hopefully lower unit cost.

 

The other factor is that a Margate 'forward looking enterprise' seems almost a contradiction in terms, at least with their current design attitudes and financial/manufacturing situation.

[robmcg]

Whatever the nature of current Hornby production, I just received a number of TMC-weathered models from Yorkshire, barely 10 days after ordering them, and most had been weathered to order, not 'off-the-shelf'...  taking advantage of the Pound's lamentable condition compared to my Australasia- currency value.  There is still a great deal of excellent-value modelling coming out of Margate via China and the UK., for we buyers at least.

 

I bought a weathered early crest BR Castle with Collett tender, a weathered B1., 72xx., Schools, N15, and early BR Britannia 70004, (at it never actually was very dirty in early BR guise, might make it late crest!) ..and from the Bachmann stable a weathered A1 'Great Eastern' and two Standard 5MT 4-6-0s 73030 and 73010.  All very reasonably priced many under £100 before weathering. The Castle is lightly weathered, the others medium, the Standard 5MT 'The Red Knight' 73010 heavily.

 

Plenty of photos to come out of this, I hope, like this recent mix of Margate and Barwell...

 

 

Rob

[robmcg]

...

 

The other factor is that a Margate 'forward looking enterprise' seems almost a contradiction in terms, at least with their current design attitudes and financial/manufacturing situation.

 

I'm not sure that Hornby have many choices given their market.

 

Certainly their policy with 00 RTR models after 2001 was very good and 'forward-looking', to wit their Chinese-made Merchant Navy is still a very nice model and would still sell well if Hornby could find production slots. Perhaps the margins on DCC-sound models is higher than basic DCC-ready, as I am like many unwilling to part with over about £100 for a good basic model...  but in any event this picure I took today and modified a little shows how good a 2001-style Hornby model can look, not even weathered, except of course by photo editing ...

 

It's all nostalgia for the 1966-67 days of steam from Waterloo to Weymouth and or Salisbury so on, with engines being worked to death and sometimes putting up astonishingly fine performances in the hands of drivers having a 'last go'... with Bulleids at least. Not sure if the Standards which seemed to gather around Guildford and Fratton were quite so commonly run at speeds in the mid-high 80s!

 

Apologies for totally ficticious location. Something along the lines of 'taking a run at the bank out of Weymouth'...

 

 

Rob

[Horsetan]

Upwey doesn't look like that!!

[Legend]

Great pics Rob, particularly like the Std5 and West Country. Very atmospheric!

[robmcg]

Upwey doesn't look like that!!

 

I shifted the loco depot....   moved a few houses,    Actually I would love to have seen engines leaving Weymouth with a heavy load on.  The trouble with the Merchant Navy class is that most of the lines they worked are instantly recongisable, given evidence of BR crest, detail alterations, cleanliness, flat-bottom rail, carrages and so on.

 

Moving back to thread subject, I wonder if we will ever see the quality of models, for the price we have come to expect, from Hornby ever again?  My point in showing the pictures is that it is still possible to enjoy existing models for quite low prices.

 

Rob

[Ozexpatriate]

I wonder if we will ever see the quality of models, for the price we have come to expect, from Hornby ever again?

Yes and no. We certainly can see high quality models - if Hornby is brave enough to test the market and price them accordingly. Even including detailed parts, I would guess that these can still come in well under £200.00, but at this point will inevitably be over the magic £100.00 mark.

 

Perhaps it is worth noting that 56 out of the 102 steam locomotives currently on the Bachmann website have a RRP that is greater than £100.00.

[Jol Wilkinson]

Yes and no. We certainly can see high quality models - if Hornby is brave enough to test the market and price them accordingly. Even including detailed parts, I would guess that these can still come in well under £200.00, but at this point will inevitably be over the magic £100.00 mark.

 

Perhaps it is worth noting that 56 out of the 102 steam locomotives currently on the Bachmann website have a RRP that is greater than £100.00.

Based upon experience with a 4mm kit manufacturer, I used to think that £100 was a definite pricing watershed. When material and overhead costs pushed several kits above that, it had no noticeable affect on sales of those kits. 

 

I recognise that we are talking about two quite different markets and customer bases, but people do get accustomed to paying higher prices provided the perceived value is maintained through better quality/choice. In some cases they are even happy to pay more, just to prove that they can afford it or want to be seen to be "on trend" (look at Apple, Audi, BMW, etc. for evidence).

 

At the same time, the RTR collector/modeller has become accustomed to buying quite a few models each year and amassing fairly large collections. The concept of fewer models in the stockbox or on the shelf for a given outlay isn't likely to go down well.

 

As a kit builder and not therefore a buyer of RTR items, it does seem to me that Hornby has become like Tesco, the business everyone likes to dislike.