Expansion at Redhill & Gatwick?

[Neal Ball]

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/28496-reading-redevelopment/page-12

 

On Page 11 and 12 there is discussion about Redhill and gatwick stations being expanded, what is all this about?

 

I go through both stations infrequently, but have tried searching on-line about all the work going on up there and apart from the new Signal box / Operations centre and the Thameslink depot have found nothing.

 

So I assume, new Platforms are being built at both stations, but to what purpose?

 

Surely the most productive way of increasing capacity would be to quadruple Haywards Heath to gatwick?

[John M Upton]

Gatwick Airport is having a Platform 7 added and when this happens the current down fast lines bay platform (No. 6) and the new Platform 7 along with some new stabling sidings will become the permanent home of the Gatwick Express terminating services.  This means a number of benefits:

 

GatEX will no longer have to hold everything up whilst they cross to/from the fast to the slow lines to use platforms 1 and 2 like they do now.

 

GatEx passengers will be able to go to a dedicated platform for the correct service, this will reduce the number of passengers paying full whack for GatEx tickets who currently board ordinary stopping services as they see 'London Victoria' on the side and immediately assume it is the GatEx, losing about six quid which they needen't have spent...

 

The whole station is getting a thorough makeover which it does need as its a bit of a 1980's BR slightly chaoticaly organised mess at the moment that was never designed for the throughput (especially the unbelievable amount of oversized luggage that everyone now insists on bringing with them!) that it has to handle now.

 

Should have been done years ago quite frankly.

 

Quadruple Copyhold Junction to Balcombe Tunnel Junction?  Never going to happen, too many very large hills in the way (that section has the Ouze Valley Viaduct and Balcombe Tunnel on it, both needing to be replicated for this to work) and it would just have the effect of more trains reaching the Gatwick bottleneck even quicker.  They often have to queue up behind GatEx's as it is now.

 

As for Reading, well on the Western Region all lines lead to and through there and it is a very serious bottleneck as a result.  Needs to be twice the current size really.

Edited February 28, 2013 by John M Upton

[Neal Ball]

Gatwick Airport is having a Platform 7 added and when this happens the current down fast lines bay platform (No. 6) and the new Platform 7 along with some new stabling sidings will become the permanent home of the Gatwick Express terminating services.  This means a number of benefits:

 

GatEX will no longer have to hold everything up whilst they cross to/from the fast to the slow lines to use platforms 1 and 2 like they do now.

 

GatEx passengers will be able to go to a dedicated platform for the correct service, this will reduce the number of passengers paying full whack for GatEx tickets who currently board ordinary stopping services as they see 'London Victoria' on the side and immediately assume it is the GatEx, losing about six quid which they needen't have spent...

 

The whole station is getting a thorough makeover which it does need as its a bit of a 1980's BR slightly chaoticaly organised mess at the moment that was never designed for the throughput (especially the unbelievable amount of oversized luggage that everyone now insists on bringing with them!) that it has to handle now.

 

Should have been done years ago quite frankly.

 

Quadruple Copyhold Junction to Balcombe Tunnel Junction?  Never going to happen, too many very large hills in the way (that section has the Ouze Valley Viaduct and Balcombe Tunnel on it, both needing to be replicated for this to work) and it would just have the effect of more trains reaching the Gatwick bottleneck even quicker.  They often have to queue up behind GatEx's as it is now.

 

As for Reading, well on the Western Region all lines lead to and through there and it is a very serious bottleneck as a result.  Needs to be twice the current size really.

 

Thanks John

[roundhouse]

There was a leaflet distributed about adding an extra platform at Redhill recently. It's all part of the plans to build flats and retail on the car park to the West side of the station. I think the flats will lead to serious congestion at the station and the retail unit or units won't be much use as they will be remote from the pedestrianised town ( due the the dual carriageway) which already has empty shops, so it's just another developer wishing to make money out of the flats. The extra platform may just be a sweetener for the development.

The newsagents in the station has been forced to close so they can add a lift up to the subway (the subway is raised above road level with the platforms even higher. There are lifts from the subway to the platforms and level access off the down platform).

 

Ian

Edited March 1, 2013 by roundhouse

[Christopher125]

Redhill is getting a new 'Platform 0' on the west side of the station, where there are currently sidings.

 

Chris

Edited March 2, 2013 by Christopher125

[phil-b259]

Gatwick Airport is having a Platform 7 added and when this happens the current down fast lines bay platform (No. 6) and the new Platform 7 along with some new stabling sidings will become the permanent home of the Gatwick Express terminating services.

Almost

 

The new platform 7 will become the Down fast line and although this will impose a slight time penalty compared to the current alignment through platform 5, given the only trains that do not stop are the Brighton Express services this won't mater too much. The widened island (platforms 5 & 6) will become the new home to the Gatwick Express service, their position between the up & down fast lines preventing crossing moves when arriving or departing northwards. Platforms 5 & 6 will however retain connections at the south end and will still be able to be used to loop down services if required thus maintaining the facility the current platform 6 provides. No additional siding space is provided, if trains want to berth they will still have to use the slow platforms to gain access.

[phil-b259]

Redhill is getting a new 'Platform 0' on the east side of the station, where there are currently sidings.

 

Chris

Yup (assuming you meant west not east)

 

Someone at work has forwarded me the provisional plan which not only sees construction of a new platform (and associated access arrangements) on the western side, but also the removal of all the sidings alongside the Reading branch, the removal of the post office dock and quite a lot of pointwork simplification / modification / relocation at the north end. (the through roads are staying BTW)

Edited March 1, 2013 by phil-b259

[roundhouse]

A photo taken today of platform 6 with the track now covered (and lifted at the South end of the station) and the alteration works underway

Edited March 2, 2013 by roundhouse

[Christopher125]

Yup (assuming you meant west not east)

 

Someone at work has forwarded me the provisional plan which not only sees construction of a new platform (and associated access arrangements) on the western side, but also the removal of all the sidings alongside the Reading branch, the removal of the post office dock and quite a lot of pointwork simplification / modification / relocation at the north end. (the through roads are staying BTW)

 

Oops! 

 

Does this mean there'll be no provision for freight or engineering trains to stable and/or round? Strikes me as quite a loss of flexibility.

 

Chris

[roundhouse]

Very few infrastructure trains do these days and certainly no freight does.

Also there are three tracks there so losing one which is rusted over will be no loss.

Ian

Edited March 2, 2013 by roundhouse

[John M Upton]

And what engineers trains that do come through Redhill (most often to/from Tonbridge) are usually top and tailed for operational flexibility anyway.

[roundhouse]

As did the train today with an EWS 66 at both ends.

[phil-b259]

Oops! 

 

Does this mean there'll be no provision for freight or engineering trains to stable and/or round? Strikes me as quite a loss of flexibility.

 

Chris

Well the plan states that the positioning of the new platform 0 and the associated turnouts has been done to allow it to function as a freight run round loop (I haven't got the plan to hand so I cannot confirm the length - will have a look tomorrow). That said given its position and the frequent passenger services at Redhill I can't see it being used much for that purpose.

 

As for sidings, the current freight sidings haven't been used for years and if they really got desperate there are allays the two DMU stabling sidings on the site of the old loco shed (between the Tonbridge & Brighton lines) that could be used for an odd cripple.

 

These days engineering trains all tend to come from and return to either Hoo junction or Tonbridge Yard. Nothing gets left at Redhill and the only freight you get now is the occasional diverted tunnel trains and aggregate flows to Crawly / Ardingly

[Mallard60022]

I thought there was going to be improved facilities at Three Bridges including a new Depot and extra stuff for Engineer's plant/wagons? However that was only gained in conversation with a Southern Driver whilst on hols in Greece!!

P

[Claude_Dreyfus]

Yes, Three Bridges will have the new FCC depot, built on the site of the up engineers sidings. A new power box is in place as well. There are a couple of sidings beside the Horsham line for plant, but they are also stabling stuff at Horsham yard; as well as a number if MPVs.

[Siberian Snooper]

I went past there this morning and there is work going on at both locations.

 

SS

[ChrisM]

Oops! 

 

Does this mean there'll be no provision for freight or engineering trains to stable and/or round? Strikes me as quite a loss of flexibility.

 

Chris

 

 

They dont build operational flexibility into anything anymore regrettably. All done with an eye on the accounts and nothing else. Even if that operational flexibility may save fines running into tens of thousands in the future...... There is a complete lack of foresight on the part of Network Rail in many of these situations I think....

[caradoc]

They dont build operational flexibility into anything anymore regrettably. All done with an eye on the accounts and nothing else. Even if that operational flexibility may save fines running into tens of thousands in the future...... There is a complete lack of foresight on the part of Network Rail in many of these situations I think....

 

That's rather a sweeping statement with which I disagree totally. In the impending transfer of the Cathcart SB area to the West of Scotland Signalling Centre, for example, points currently worked from a ground frame are becoming Signaller-operated, and new turnback facilities are being provided, thus greatly increasing operational flexibility.

[ChrisM]

That's rather a sweeping statement with which I disagree totally. In the impending transfer of the Cathcart SB area to the West of Scotland Signalling Centre, for example, points currently worked from a ground frame are becoming Signaller-operated, and new turnback facilities are being provided, thus greatly increasing operational flexibility.

 

Perhaps I should have phrased my original statement better, I would guess the reasoning behind the example raised by yourself is based around an increase in tph along that particular section of line and the need to clear the main lines of reversing trains...... There are plenty of other major projects underway around the network to increase capacity in a similar vein.I was refering to the complete lack of places left on todays network to  reverse a service due to a blocked line ahead, be that due to a failed train or engineering works. Or the fact that if a failure occurs in one of the new mega signalling centres entire regions are left with no trains.

[John M Upton]

 Or the fact that if a failure occurs in one of the new mega signalling centres entire regions are left with no trains.

 

This is one area of concern I have too.  Eventually the Three Bridges centre will be covering virtually the whole of the South Central Division from London Bridge and Victoria down to Hove, Lewes and the Arun Valley, all with Control for Southern, FCC and Network Rail as well as the ECO (or whatever they call the man with the big red button to switch off the electrical supply!) in one single location.

 

It will only take the actions of one idiot YTS trainee with his JCB (or indeed someone with more sinister intent) to accidentally dig through some cables to cut the building off and the entire South Central division could grind to a complete standstill.  It's already happened on a smaller scale when the current Three Bridges PSB has had a power cut.

Edited March 24, 2013 by John M Upton

[phil-b259]

This is one area of concern I have too.  Eventually the Three Bridges centre will be covering virtually the whole of the South Central Division from London Bridge and Victoria down to Hove, Lewes and the Arun Valley, all with Control for Southern, FCC and Network Rail as well as the ECO (or whatever they call the man with the big red button to switch off the electrical supply!) in one single location.

 

It will only take the actions of one idiot YTS trainee with his JCB (or indeed someone with more sinister intent) to accidentally dig through some cables to cut the building off and the entire South Central division could grind to a complete standstill.  It's already happened on a smaller scale when the current Three Bridges PSB has had a power cut.

Erm, you missed out the MML up to Bedford as well! Apparently somebody somewhere has the intention of moving West Hampstead into there too. Edited March 24, 2013 by phil-b259

[Edwin_m]

Isn't Three Bridges going to take over part of the Great Northern as well?

 

There are, in principle at least, three reasons why large operational control centres shouldn't affect reliability:

 

(1) Losing an existing control centre, unless a very small one, probably cripples the service just as effectively as losing the whole of an operational control centre.  There are a lot more older power boxes, electrical controls, etc, than there will be operational control centres so in that sense there is more to go wrong. 

 

(2) The cables coming out of the operational control centre will be carrying data streams to control and display large areas of the railway on a single cable.  This means that if the proverbial bulldozer goes through them there is only a small number of cables to reinstate, and if they are properly planned there will also be duplicate cables that take a different route in which case there is no loss of communication at all.  Doing the same just outside an existing powerbox means hundreds of cores of safety-vital cabling to be re-connected and re-tested. 

 

(3) Due to the use of standard hardware and digital communication as above, it is in principle possible to relocate an operational control centre to another site relatively quickly.  I don't know what Network Rail's intentions are for this, and if I did I wouldn't post them here. 

 

This is of course rather theoretical and realising the potential benefits depends on good design and operational practice.  For example there have recently been some power failures at large control centres which suggest that the duplicated or backup supply arrangements aren't all they ought to be.  Also a lot of the more vulnerable existing equipment will remain in place for some time as a potential source of unreliability, just controlled from the new centre instead of the existing location. 

Edited March 25, 2013 by Edwin_m

[ChrisM]

Erm, you missed out the MML up to Bedford as well! Apparently somebody somewhere has the intention of moving West Hampstead into there too.

And the South Eastern side of Victoria, right out to Meopham, plus the Kent lines currently controlled by London Bridge as far as Elmstead Woods! Although unlikely, in the event of a complete failure there would be a lot of stranded people!

[roundhouse]

Planning submission submitted for Redhill station redevelopment.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-surrey-22699955

 

Interesting as to whats happened to the busy A23 and roundabout as these appear to have gone in the artists impression!

Edited May 29, 2013 by roundhouse

[phil-b259]

They dont build operational flexibility into anything anymore regrettably. All done with an eye on the accounts and nothing else. Even if that operational flexibility may save fines running into tens of thousands in the future...... There is a complete lack of foresight on the part of Network Rail in many of these situations I think....

 

But the whole point is Redhill DOESN'T have any need for freight handling requirements and perhaps more importantly there won't be any need in the future either. The only place likely to generate railbourne freight was the sand quarry - now a housing development. All other freight is merely passing through - either aggregates to Crawley or Channel Tunnel stuff to Tonbridge. Engineering trains from Tonbridge way are normally top and tailed or routed via London.