What's the bigger worry for the future of the preservation moment; lack of money or lack of volunteers?

[OnTheBranchline]

If we were to speculate on the future of the various engine and railway preservation moments, do you think that the bigger issue in the future will be; lack of money to keep everything maintained and running or lack of volunteers to work the preservation railways and locos?

[jcm@gwr]

Neither, it's the red tape that will scupper most projects, IMHO

Jeff

[PhilH]

Neither, it's the red tape that will scupper most projects, IMHO

Jeff

 

 Yep, it's getting more like my job than my job.

[LNERGE]

The problem i'm encountering at several railways is the lack of volunteers with the right experience/qualifications. The core skills to simply maintain the equipment they have is missing. On one railway i singled out one piece of equipment and took a photo on every passing visit. (it has a cafe so i pop in for a cuppa/breakfast on a Monday if i've been working nights) My chosen 'victim' didn't get oiled for two years.

[Boris]

Having volunteered (or attempted to) on a number of different railways over the years, I would like to put forward the argument that some of the railways that are struggling for volunteers are those whose recruitment process for said volunteers is staffed by people who are awkward or just plain rude to potential new recruits.  Case in point being the Wensleydale where a number of years ago (I used to be a member)I got a letter begging for any help I could give (financial or practical) and saying that they were very short on Operating grades.  Knowing a bit about 101s (guarding, driving and a smidgeon about maintenance) I rang the number given and offered to come over (this was after filling in 3 seperate volunteer recruitment forms and never hearing anything), and was basically told that "yes we are desperate but I can't be bothered to deal with you now", the phone was then put down.

 

Recruitment form also filled in for Keighley & Worth 2 years ago, no reply received again.

 

If that's the attitude of some heritage railways, they reap what they sow, end of.

 

Also, to play devils advocate here LNERGE, if you had time to observe said bit of equipment repeatedly on a regular basis over 2 years, why didn't you volunteer to maintain it?

 

I think there is also a feeling amongst some people that you have to make a regular commitment to a preserved railway, yes, in some cases you do to maintain competencies (operating grades being the prime example), but the Moors have several volunteers from Australia  and New Zealand and there is no way they come over every weekend!  You often see the same faces on preserved railways, paying customers who are there every weekend trains are running, for a laugh ask them about volunteering on that railway.  You'll hear the "I have no time" or "I have no money" excuse, but then they are there ALL day, buying rover tickets every weekend.  I think some of it is actually a mindset within some of the enthusiast community that putting something other than cash into a preserved railway is time consuming.

[APOLLO]

Biggest worry has to be money - or lack of it. It all depends on how long the current recession lasts. Maybe we never get back to growth, maybe we will, in a couple / few / quite a few years - who really knows ? - not me, not even Gideon Osborne !!

 

Other points mentioned are all valid. Difficult times ahead.

 

Brit15

[Tom Bayford]

I am a volunteer at the Mid hants working in the shed in the time i have spare although not much chance of that at the moment and now having diabetes puts another nail in it but i enjoy it although beacause of starting a new job it means the weekdays i used to go i cant beacause of work although need to make an effort but i work on the railway so do i want to spend every moment of my life on the railway?
 

i think the biggest problem is trying to keep what you got and keeping them happy aswell as getting in new recruits although some of the local railways all seem to be gentlemans clubs that dont seem to encourage but discourage especially after one of them i was treated quite badly by the 'magement'. Somehow i think theyll keep going there does seem to be alot of us younger generation involved

[royaloak]

I agree with everything written so far especially the railways attitudes to (prospective) volunteers.

After my 2 sons and I had our noses pushed out of joint by a loco owner who decided that after we had spent 14 months stripping a very large diesel loco back to bare metal (literally all the paint was removed), he sorted out the welding on the bodywork then we undercoated, filled, sanded, primed, filled and sanded the complete loco he then got his 2 mates (one of them a committee member) to paint the top coats on and we were banished into the engine room on cleaning duties having been told point blank that we would not be putting any of the top coats on, funny enough we lost interest at that point but to see the 2 of them accepting all the praise when the loco was unveiled (we were in the crowd) as if they had done everything really left a bad taste.

 

We have just started volunteering down there again but only get involved with trackwork now (7 of us relaid 135ft of track last Sunday), they have dropped big hints about us helping on some rolling stock but we all told them that we were not interested in that and will only do stuff which is railway owned.

 

Without enough volunteers any railway is doomed.

[LNERGE]

''Also, to play devils advocate here LNERGE, if you had time to observe said bit of equipment repeatedly on a regular basis over 2 years, why didn't you volunteer to maintain it?''

 

Note the 'on my way home from a nightshift' Not really inclined to start doing something before i'd finished doing what i was doing before/head of department on a fairly big heritage railway/have my own personal heritage set up that requires my attention/father of seven.

[The Stationmaster]

Also, to play devils advocate here LNERGE, if you had time to observe said bit of equipment repeatedly on a regular basis over 2 years, why didn't you volunteer to maintain it?

His 'back garden' is clearly visible from the ECML and it seems to contain more than enough to keep the average S&T bloke busy during his time off (and that's just the stuff you can see from a passing train).

[LNERGE]

Many people, my colleagues included, find it strange that i and quite a few others go and do what we do in our time when we do it all week if you know what i mean.

 

My ex boss paid me a visit today. He always marvels that we can turn out gangs to do jobs for nothing that cost the railway many thousands of pounds with staff who accept they will be there to the bitter end regardless of the weather and no pay.

 

I get to waltz in next week and fit the facing point lock assembly etc after all the hard work has been done..

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/pwayowen/8544793401/in/photostream

[PhilH]

Another problem is that a lot of prospective volunteers have very rosy ideas about what working in a preserved railway environment is all about (I'm talking about in a steam loco dept here).

 

Both in restoring and running the things pretty much every job is cold/hot, dirty, heavy, wet, boring to a degree with a large percentage being just downright nasty (try needlegunning a firebox tubeplate, that's a lot of fun...not). They all start with the romantic idea of what great fun it always is, recreating the golden age of steam etc., then they find out what it's really like - for instance,try oiling up a 4 cylinder engine in a flooded pit at 6am on a cold, wet winter's day.

 

Not everybody's cup of tea - I'm in my 27th year on the Mid Hants now, still not sure if I like it or not.........

[Hugh Flynn]

Hi

Funny but talking about almost same about exhibitions with fewer members in clubs ,but I worry that next to nothing on youngsters coming into hobby as for the future I do not want to be negative as I have been in this hobby since about 12-13 years old and l wouldnt swap for any other ,but I can see the preserved railways one day having to pay staff to run them even if staff are not that interested in railways (it will just be a job for visitors) and if it does not make money to cover costs close?

Like preserved railways and exhibitions we will always have them but both will have loosers and only the strong will survive.

 

These are only my thoughts and we are not there yet so I will enjoy the years we have in this great hobby.

And wish all preserved railways the best for the future.

 

Hugh

[Boris]

Like preserved railways and exhibitions we will always have them but both will have loosers and only the strong will survive.

 

I would probably also add that only well run/managed preserved railways will survive, people will have to realise that cliques and funny handshakes will kill preserved railways just as fast as a lack of finance.

[The Stationmaster]

I would probably also add that only well run/managed preserved railways will survive, people will have to realise that cliques and funny handshakes will kill preserved railways just as fast as a lack of finance.

It's interesting that Michael Draper (a past GM of the Severn Valley Railway) was heavily derided in the enthusiast world for saying almost exactly that back in the 1980s.  Now the odd thing, in my view, is that while both he and you are absolutely right some not so well run/managed railways have managed to survive the intervening years and appear (thus far) to be surviving the current economic situation.  True on more than a few railways there are sidings full of locos and stock 'awaiting restoration' but, some poor trackwork apart on some lines, the odd and irrational thing is that certain railways have survived when all the good management practice manuals would tend to suggest that they should not have.

 

Quite how we explain that I really don't know and maybe the survival rate will become clearer as time passes but thus far it doesn't seem to have - very odd.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

... some not so well run/managed railways have managed to survive the intervening years and appear (thus far) to be surviving the current economic situation.  True on more than a few railways there are sidings full of locos and stock 'awaiting restoration' but, some poor trackwork apart on some lines, the odd and irrational thing is that certain railways have survived when all the good management practice manuals would tend to suggest that they should not have.

 

Quite how we explain that I really don't know and maybe the survival rate will become clearer as time passes but thus far it doesn't seem to have - very odd.

 Ah, the mystery of less than ideally run businesses surviving; even when the economic situation is harsh and some failures would be expected. This is general, not specific to railway preservation at all. Rude retailers, Bolshy banks, Manky manufacturing, Insolent insurance, I could go on...

 

You have to ask in all humility, case by case; is it possible that they are actually doing something right that adapts them to their particular economic niche? In the case of the railway preservation outfit, dependent on volunteers to do all the hard slog of unpleasant work in lousy conditions. Effectively creating barriers to the entry of volunteers, so that the potential volunteer has to do all the work of getting recruited and eventually winning grudging acceptance, with no thanks along the way. That's self-selection for a particularly stubborn and determined type of personality, who likely will stick at it, come what may. It doesn't look pretty, but it may well work...

[Lochty no more]

From my own experience, When I joined the Kingdom of Fife Railway Preservation Society I was appalled at the condition of most of the assets, equally shocked by the age group of the volunteers ( almost everyone is a pensioner ) the hole operation is run on a financial shoe string. However after a few years my opinion has changed, a few individuals - regardless of age can make a significant contribution to the success of an enterprise. KFRPS members fall into one of two categories - this is not meant as a criticisim of anyone it`s just an observation, members who make things happen & members who let things happen. The trick is getting the ballance right.

[station cat]

I would have thought that volunteers would be the critical problem. The more volunteers you have the more people you can send out fundraising, the better you are able to operate, and the more likely you are to be able to spot and fix problems before they become critical (and expensive).

[Pete 75C]

Taking a slightly different angle, I'm wondering about the future of preservation with regard to steam v diesel. The first weekend of the North Norfolk Railway's Steam Gala has just passed (more next weekend) and they've had a bit of bad luck. First, the weather was awful and there was a noticeable lack of people around on Saturday especially. Secondly, the prang at Weybourne involving Britannia didn't help. When Ian Riley's 37518 was pressed into service yesterday due to a lack of available steam, the platform at Sheringham was alive with enthusiasts my age or younger. They were there to see 37518, nothing else.

As those who remember steam / travelled behind steam / worked on steam become fewer, what next? Can a heritage railway survive on a diet of diesel? The Mid-Norfolk would say "yes" as a case in point.

Incidentally, as a former 47 driver, I've been told that my services might be useful to the NNR (they have one). I only wish I had the time, because if you are going to volunteer for something, it shouldn't be "fair weather only". Pete.

[PLD]

Having volunteered (or attempted to) on a number of different railways over the years, I would like to put forward the argument that some of the railways that are struggling for volunteers are those whose recruitment process for said volunteers is staffed by people who are awkward or just plain rude to potential new recruits.

 

If that's the attitude of some heritage railways, they reap what they sow, end of.

 

Both Volunteer effort and finance can be issues but every line is different and some lines suffer with one while others suffer the other shortage. Finances can be difficult to improve but the volunteer side can be greatly influenced by the attitude of the existing staff.

 

From my experience with tramway preservation I fully agree with Boris's comments. At the line where I am a Guard we are if anything over-staffed with volunteers spread right across the age range from 14 to 70s such that sometimes the issue is keeping them all occupied and currently there is a waiting list for guard training! We have a reputation for friendliness and welcoming all contributions. Whatever skills or experience they come with, we won't turn anyone away.

 

Contrast that with another organisation with a much larger fleet and much better financial reserves but with a reputation for 'your face needing to fit' and being sticklers for rules and regulations who are desperate for volunteers especially at the younger end of the scale and at times last year struggled to put two cars in service when we were running 4 (maximum line capacity) and had crews to spare...

 

Make potential volunteers feel welcome, (particularly don't pre-judge based on age) and once they are on board make sure it enjoyable or they won't be back.

[Boris]

I feel that the "Fit in or F*** Off" approach to volunteer management should be consigned to the bin where it belongs, and an efficient and friendly volunteer recruitment system will reap rewards for the railway concerned.  5 years ago the railway I was involved in was seriously struggling for volunteers, the (so called) recruitment system was grabbed by the willy and shaken and after several years of hard work we are now seeing the benefits across the company, so it is worth being decent with people rather than adopting a survival of the keenest approach in my experience.

[HullCityB17]

I would say it depends on the size of the railway or Preservation Group. Speaking on behalf of the C58LG we can only have a limited amount of volunteers working on 58016 at any one time due to lack of power outlets and limited amount of tools. Also, we are currently sharing tools and cabinet space with the Class 56 Group so again are restricted. Only some many angle grinders. We only have a single power socket by 58016. We only have two extension leads, one long and one short.

For us the biggest worry is the lack of money, as we are paying rent for our loco's, as well as paying for the repairs and also replacing tools, and PPE Equipment. We have no timescale for the restoration, so we can take our time and the lack of volunteers is less of an issue.

We have a mixture of experienced and non experienced volunteers. We do not discriminate. I myself, have no railway experience. We have an experienced Sheet Metal worker, three people from the Railway Industry one who helped Dapol & Heljan to produce the Class 58 Models and knows everything about the 58's. We also have volunteers who also volunteer at the National Railway Musuem.

Don't forgot too many volunteers spoil the broth.... There are certain times when we may require as many people as possibly, like preparing a loco for an event, then it will be all hands to the pump, but these are irregular occurrences.

[Boris]

I agree with your comments John, yes that could quite feasibly be the case for a single project, like a loco owners group for example, but when it comes to a larger organisation that has multiple projects on the go, that probably wouldn't be the case unless they were extremely lucky.

 

Would a decent sized generator help you with your power problem at Barrow Hill?  I know someone who had one he wanted rid of and I might be able to come to some arrangement with him, it would certainly run a couple of grinders or similar, he was also getting shot of a compressor which would run an air tool or two for you.  I'll see if there is any response if you like?

[HullCityB17]

I agree with your comments John, yes that could quite feasibly be the case for a single project, like a loco owners group for example, but when it comes to a larger organisation that has multiple projects on the go, that probably wouldn't be the case unless they were extremely lucky.

 

Would a decent sized generator help you with your power problem at Barrow Hill?  I know someone who had one he wanted rid of and I might be able to come to some arrangement with him, it would certainly run a couple of grinders or similar, he was also getting shot of a compressor which would run an air tool or two for you.  I'll see if there is any response if you like?

This would be most appreciated as we only have a small mobile generator and one compressor for two people to do spraying.

If you could email Mick Palfreyman, who is the Restoration Co-Ordinater & also Comittee Member at mick.palfreyman@c58lg.co.uk as he is the best person to discuss with regards to any possible arrangements.

 

Many Thanks,

John Arnold

[jamie92208]

I hope that the current crop of railways do survive.  Certainly some have become more dependent on paid staff than they used to be, The North York Moors and Crich come to mind.  However since we moved the horse tram, that I'm helping to restore, to the  Middleton Railway in Leeds I now see the committment of volunteers on a weekly basis.  The amount of work that has been achieved over the past few months is amazing.  200 yards of track relayed, using secondhand components, this week the level crossing rails replaced, using custom made components, manufactured in house and much work going on to convert a PMV into a usable coach, as well as the usual round of boiler inspections, washouts and restoration on the Sentinel.  The team have worked in atrocious weather and certainly the workshop has at times been colder than the outside.  Yes many of the volunteers are grey haired like me but there are also a good few younger ones who attend whenever work committments allow.   This opportunity to observe close up has really impressed me and has also made me much more positive about the future of the railway.   If this microcosm is anything to go by, the future is assured.  Mutual improvement classes(MIC's) are run on a regular basis and they have just got a lottery grant , part of which is to to help with running MIC's in the practical skills involved in steam loco restoration.  

 

As long as that skills base can be built up and maintained then I think that things are in good hands.   I just hope that other museums/preserved lines would take such an enlightened view.  Certainly the two junior members of our model railway club, who volunteer at the Keigley and Worth Valley appear to have been welcomed and mentored and are enjoying the experience as well as acquiring skills.

 

 

Jamie