What's the bigger worry for the future of the preservation moment; lack of money or lack of volunteers?

[Pandora]

I have worked on the Railway for  20 something years.

 

I have observed that anyone who joins from outside, is greeted with suspicion and mistrust.

 

It can take a long time to be accepted into the general clique, from some of the posts, it would seem that the heritage  railways are preserving a tradition 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Excellent news there Mike about doing away with tick sheets! Typical of the aussies to do away with them first, but then they appear to have done away with the policitcal correctness culture that has grown up in the UK over the last 20 years!

 

As for what Bob Hughes says above, yes, he's right, the silver pound is maybe where we should be chasing, but we also need to encourage the younger generation so that we can collectively pass on our skills. I suspect a lot of our knowledge may end up here, on the internet, for future generations to read about, but that is no substitute for meeting people like us face to face.

 

I have to fill in a tick sheet every time I take one of my historic buses out on the road because VOSA expect me to do so; they also expect me to put my tacho disc in 15 minutes before I start to drive to show that I've allowed time to do my walk-round check as it's part of my work. None of that PROVES I've inspected a single item I should look at, it just proves I've complied with the latest fetish from the authorities and ticked the boxes!

 

No Apparent defect. We do that at our garage. Now our duty sheets have a check list printed onto the back. Checking out a vehicle in pitch black rain swept garage with no torch and no room to squeeze down either side is an experience not mentioned on the VOSA DVDs in training though.

[bodmin16]

For me the issue will be that all the railways are becoming to big and starting to look the same. Why would I go to the Bluebell (which I love) to travel behind a 9f or Bullied, when I can go to the Watercress Line which is only half an hour away and do the same? I'd travel the extra distance if the Radial, or C etc etc was running. I think preservation societies need to consider their size and hence family cost and have a USP.

[bodmin16]

For me the issue will be that all the railways are becoming to big and starting to look the same. Why would I go to the Bluebell (which I love) to travel behind a 9f or Bullied, when I can go to the Watercress Line which is only half an hour away and do the same? I'd travel the extra distance if the Radial, or C etc etc was running. I think preservation societies need to consider their size and hence family cost and have a USP.

Don't have too long journey times and have a unique selling point!

[bodmin16]

Bluebell Railway has a substantial fleet of home based locos including a number of unique examples, and I noticed today that there would appear to be no locos available from the home fleet and the only serviceable locos for passenger services are the Mid-Hants 9F, a visiting GWR prairie and the class 33. A sad state compared to the halcyon days of Bluebell on parade of the 70s and 80s. This is not a criticism of the volunteers who do an amazing job and if I had the time and opportunity would be more than happy to get my hands dirty. I sincerely hope that this situation can be turned round and the current mechanical problems are soon resolved.

[bike2steam]

and if I had the time and opportunity would be more than happy to get my hands dirty.

That's it exactly, these days most people have less spare time, more commitments, and less spare cash to regularly drive( even once a month) somewhere to volunteer, of which I'm also guilty, with over 100 sights around the country where regular volunteers are urgently needed, it's stretching that very important volunteer base to the limit, and I fear a few heritage sights will go.

 

Paul Mays - former volunteer, and Member Of The Council Of Management at Swanage Railway.

[bodmin16]

That's it exactly, these days most people have less spare time, more commitments, and less spare cash to regularly drive( even once a month) somewhere to volunteer, of which I'm also guilty, with over 100 sights around the country where regular volunteers are urgently needed, it's stretching that very important volunteer base to the limit, and I fear a few heritage sights will go.

 

I sincerely hope that you are wrong and that we will not loose any preservation projects but unfortunately I fear that you maybe right. When I had time some years ago I used to be an active volunteer of my local preserved railway, but unfortunately now time does not allow it. I do however make small contributions of artefacts and even if I just stand on a platform and watch a train go by when I am passing I will always make a donation to at least one collection box. I will also donate where possible if travelling. Let's hope that events such as the foods that hit the GWR in recent years putting additional strain on resources do not become regular occurrences further compromising some preservation projects!

[PhilH]

Not only floods - the biggest road over bridge on the Mid Hants has been deemed unsafe and will cost £100,000 to put right. This cost will have to be met by the railway (apparently our insurance company isn't interested).

 

This unforeseen event has put the long term future of the Mid Hants in doubt as we don't have that sort of money in reserve.

 

We shall see.

[jjb1970]

One thing worth keeping in mind is the shrinking skills base of skilled crafts people in the UK which makes finding good people for the maintenance of heavy industrial equipment, machining replacement parts etc a painful experience. If you need Chartered Engineers to do design work, quality assurance and "manage" then you have a decent chance but if you want a good welder or turner it is a nightmare. There is a good reason why so many companies now rely on immigrant technical labor, and believe it or not in many cases it is not to reduce staff costs. This will certainly make an impact on the preserved railway scene as whilst enthusiasm and willingness to learn can take you an awful long way there comes a point where you are either competent and capable of doing a job or you aren't regardless of how much enthusiasm and commitment you have.

My other fear is that for modern preservation subjects the long term costs of maintenance and spare parts will be crippling, and then you get to the fact that if the mainline rail operators struggle to source economically realistic support for electronic control equipment on trains then when those trains enter the preservation scene (and I hope they will, modern trains are as worthy of preservation as steam engines and BR era diesels) then I don't think preservation movements will stand a chance.

[The Stationmaster]

I've been around long enough to have heard it all before and although things change the fact is that the physical skills base does to some extent perpetuate because there always seems to be someone who likes to get their hands dirty or learn a vanishing skill even if there's no employment future for it.

 

But while that might be a problem I think it is hardly the most important one and Phil has highlighted it in a very stark manner - infrastructure problems and costs can be truly major headaches and while some can be managed for it invariably pays to expect the unexpected and - in an ideal world - try to build up reserves to at least have a chance of tackling it.  And that indicates another, often wholly neglected, area which is crucial to survival - management and in particular money management and budgetting because it can't all be supported by appeals and selling old books or beer.  The infrastructure has to be managed, loco maintenance has to be managed, sales have to be managed, and above all the financial bottom line has to be managed.  I suspect that any railway which, alas, comes among the first to founder will be the one that has taken least care in looking after the pennies.

[roythebus]

I suspect by the time today's diesels are ready for preservation the technology and IT will be so obsolete they won't work! A shovel does not go out of date that quickly!

 

As for the Bluebell, I got a txt from my son this morning saying he was fireman on the 33 for the day! Aren't we glad the Bluebell abandoned their anti-diesel policy?

 

Regarding volunteering, I simply haven't had the time to volunteer for the last couple of years! I've got such a backlog of my own bus restoration work to get on with, a day off is a thing of the past, and with the possibility of a HLF-funded restoration imminent, even less free time, but maybe some cash coming in!

[bike2steam]

One thing worth keeping in mind is the shrinking skills base of skilled crafts people in the UK which makes finding good people for the maintenance of heavy industrial equipment, machining replacement parts etc a painful experience.

Mmm, that reminds me of an amusing incident at Swanage, about 1990, when the upper management, in their infinite wisdom, engaged a new 'chief mechanical engineer', - I had to teach him how to set, and operate a universal milling machine - needless to say he didn't last long.

[JeffP]

Going back to the clique thing:

 

I was treated abominably by volunteers at one site, when I went, first on spec, and second, with an invite, to photograph three diesels, close up, for modelling.

 

BOTH times I was refused access...despite a 160 mile round trip, and having been told it would be OK the second time, and offering to join both myself and my son on the day.

 

THAT railway will not another visit, nor will it ever get a single penny from me in future.

 

Yet I've been to another where they went out of their way to make me welcome...and I spent money there.

[James]

I would like to put forward the argument that some of the railways that are struggling for volunteers are those whose recruitment process for said volunteers is staffed by people who are awkward or just plain rude to potential new recruits.

I'd say that's true - not of all of them, but certainly for some.

 

Two contrasting cases of my own - one railway with which Boris may be familiar, I was basically told the p-way department would welcome me because of my professional background! (And that remark from one of the railway's board members!) And then the Mountsorrel Railway who virtually frog marched me to site when I said I was interested in helping!

[Tom J]

We have to accept that the interest group to which most steam railways (particularly outside of tourist areas) relate is going to contract significantly when the baby boomers start going to their eternal reward in greater numbers.

 

At that, and it sounds morbid, we need to work on things like bequests. Some preserved railways are really booming at the moment, spending money on growth, on extensions and assets, but 20-30 years down the line the few younger folk at the fringes will be the only ones left.

 

There is no shortage of men of my Dad's generation wanting to be firemen and drivers as they retire, but when they are gone there will be an almighty great vacuum. Sustainability is the key to long-term survival. That means looking at long-term income streams, making best use of the resources available now (because the gamut of those resources will dwindle) to set railways up for the future, and pulling in, training and above all valuing younger people, not just making them clean and paint things - one day, they will need to mend or use them, because nobody else will be there to push them aside any longer.

 

Unfortunately I can see clearly a segment of the preservation clique who are hedonists - to the extent that they want to play trains now, and when they are no longer able to, who cares?

[roythebus]

The bequests have worked well for the IWSR; one very generous bequest paid for the E1 to go there and be rebuilt! Others have benefitted the carriage shed/coach restoration and more.

 

As for the next generation, my son as you may have read a few comments up, has been interested from "an early age" and is now a volunteer fireman on the Bluebell and IWSR, as well as his day job as Assistant Fleet Engineer Southern Railway! He's also following his maternal grandfather, as he was a fireman on the Southern Railway of India! My other son doesn't share the railway interest.

 

Thinking about another comment about the engineering manager not knowing how to use certain machines, I think part of the problem is that most DO know how to use them and possibly not much about managing. I feel manager should know about the machines and what they do, but it is not necessary to know how to use them. I remember talking to the MD of a bus company in Epsom a few years back. He said "my job is to manage and direct, not to drive buses. If I'm driving buses, I'm not managing". The same could be said for most heritage railways.

 

How often is the ops manager out driving/firing/guarding? He's probably out because he's short of staff, but hey, there's a load of volunteers waiting to be passed out in those roles. They can't get passed out because the ops man is driving, and he does the passing out...and so the vicious circle continues.

 

If the engineering manager is using the milling machine, he's not managing the works programme, so a loco shortage crops up!

[phil-b259]

 

How often is the ops manager out driving/firing/guarding? He's probably out because he's short of staff, but hey, there's a load of volunteers waiting to be passed out in those roles. They can't get passed out because the ops man is driving, and he does the passing out...and so the vicious circle continues.

 

So what is the person becoming opps manager supposed to do if he has been a voulnter driver previously - abandon his pastime just because there might be a conflict?

 

In reality posts like opps manager carry, under ROGS legislation, signifficant legal and reglatory requirements and thus they tend (certainly on larger lines) to be full time roles undertaken by paid staff. Such persons when not their contracted working hours have just as much right to drive a loco as any other voulnteer.

 

 

If the engineering manager is using the milling machine, he's not managing the works programme, so a loco shortage crops up!

 

While the primary role of a manager is to manage, there are plenty of examples where such an approch has become unstuck. If an engineering manager has some engineering experence then he will be better placed to know whether what he is been told is true or understand what is or is not pratical in any given circumstances.

 

If you doubt this have a close look at the railtrack debarcle - lots of managers but none of them really knowing much about the engineering side of the railway and therefore unable / unwilling to give the engineering side of the business the attention it needed.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Thinking about another comment about the engineering manager not knowing how to use certain machines, I think part of the problem is that most DO know how to use them and possibly not much about managing. I feel manager should know about the machines and what they do, but it is not necessary to know how to use them. I remember talking to the MD of a bus company in Epsom a few years back. He said "my job is to manage and direct, not to drive buses. If I'm driving buses, I'm not managing". The same could be said for most heritage railways.

 

How often is the ops manager out driving/firing/guarding? He's probably out because he's short of staff, but hey, there's a load of volunteers waiting to be passed out in those roles. They can't get passed out because the ops man is driving, and he does the passing out...and so the vicious circle continues.

 

If the engineering manager is using the milling machine, he's not managing the works programme, so a loco shortage crops up!

The question of managers carrying out tasks in the area they manage is an interesting one.  Firstly if they are managing their time properly and adequately the situation could well be that they do have time to drive or work milling machines or whatever - in practice it is often the case on smaller lines that exactly that happens and without problem.

 

But it comes back to managing properly and Phil has mentioned ROGs so we'll take it a bit further.  Within the particular railway's documentation there will be a laid-down procedure for training and passing out footplate staff and it should specify - by post - the persons responsible for that and it might well be (as on one railway I know of) that the Operations manager is responsible for such examinations but he is also required to be an experienced engineman on the types of locos for which he examines and passes out Firemen and Drivers - so he has to maintain his driving skill base etc (and the procedures requires him to do so).  On other railways it is probably different (in fact on most I have come across it is different).

[roythebus]

I'm not saying that ops managers should NOT use their spare time driving or engineering managers should not use their spare time milling etc! They should in my view spend their PAID time managing their facility first. Once that is done and things are under control, THEN go and drive/mill/whatever.

 

It is understandable that on a lot or railways the ops man is also the footplate inspector and has to do a driving or firing turn to keep his competence, route knowledge and to pass people out. what they should avoid is HAVING to drive on a regular basis to cover volunteer turns when they should be doing their managing work. There is a difference.

 

I also understand the need for them to drive to cover staff shortages to keep the service running and this is where things become difficult; the fine balance between managing and keeping the revenue stream coming. If a manager is driving regularly in his "paid" time, then there's something wrong with the situation. As my bus industry friend said, you cannot manage and drive! The same could be said of workshop staff who are often called on at short notice to cover driving and firing turns, and this may be why there's a shortage of serviceable locos in some places.

 

Is the shortage caused by bad management, general lack of finances, lack of forward planning, or maintenance and other staff being called away from their "proper" duties to cover staff shortages, thereby causing maintenance to fall behind?

 

I hasten to add I'm not criticising the staff who perform these stirling duties, often at short notice, after all I've done the same myself many times in various places. On one of "my" railways the workshop staff are "always" on the locos covering volunteer staff shortages. that railway had a loco crisis recently.

 

If we look at the comments about the MHR bridge, bridges shouldn't suddenly be deemed unsafe. They should be subject to regular inspection; wear and tear should be noticed and steps taken to make sure the bridge doesn't suddenly become unfit. I know it can happen with earth movements, landslips and the like, or even a too big lorry going over it! It may indicate someone has taken their eye off the ball for a moment. I don't know, I'm not a bridge inspector but I know a man who lives close to there who is!

 

Talking to my son the other week, he's supervising the refurbishment of various units for the Southern Railway. Whilst he's very good on the spanners and Managing Things, he's no good at project management so has had to appoint a project manager to make sure the left-handed thruble squealers and toilet door handles are delivered when they are needed! But then the SR can afford that luxury. Most heritage railways appoint project managers even in a volunteer capacity to oversee various projects.

[jjb1970]

I don't really know many engineers that could use a milling machine or a lathe or any other workshop tools with a good degree of proficiency. Unless they've came through the ranks their experience of machining will be limited to a bit of workshop experience as a trainee before going off to do design work, management work or whatever field they go into. This is the problem the UK has, it is not engineers that in short supply but skilled trades people. If you look at the demographics of our skilled trades base there are two features that seem remarkably constant in my recent experience, the age profile of British workers is high and the younger workers tend to be mainly foreigners. At least in the South East. I find that really quite sad and worrying. I'll happily admit there is no way I could walk into a workshop and use a milling machine with any degree of expertise!

[PhilH]

There's an awful lot of shoulds and should nots in this thread - meanwhile in the real world...

[bike2steam]

My post #62 was meant for an amusing aside, not discussion, it shows what assumptions, and pompous pontifications some will say without the full facts, and the ignorance of the operations of a small, 'back-street, lock-up' style engineering industrial unit business, which equates with the Swanage Railway workshop in the earlier years. This is not the thread for me to go on in depth.

[roythebus]

My post #62 was meant for an amusing aside, not discussion, it shows what assumptions, and pompous pontifications some will say without the full facts, and the ignorance of the operations of a small, 'back-street, lock-up' style engineering industrial unit business, which equates with the Swanage Railway workshop in the earlier years. This is not the thread for me to go on in depth.

Yes, I saw it that way initially, sorry if I got on my high horse a bit there! It seems all heritage lines started in that way, and a line I work on in Belgium is still in that sort of state some 50 years after being formed!! they too are short of volunteers. To quote a more recent case, (not mentioning which railway) they too took on an engineering manager who was ex LUL, quite used to running a large fleet of tube trains, but couldn't hack the problems of managing a fleet of 6 steam locos! He didn't last long either.

 

I suspect the majority of us in the heritage railway movement are largely self-taught and started in the late 1960's. Fortunately the movement has moved on from those happy days of rebuilding a steam loco in a deserted platform somewhere, with the loco jacked up on blocks of wood. Some of us had some sort of railway background which helped a lot. I remember being volunteered to drive the Ryde Pier Tram chassis from Havenstreet to Wooton and back one day. Why me? Because my GS bus had the same engine and I was qualified as a guard/emergency motorman on the Underground, the only one there that day with some sort of railway driving qualification!!

 

We have to remember the paperwork and official side has also moved on since those heady days, most think for the worse, especially with the amount of form-filling and box-ticking that we discussed earlier in this thread.

 

We all have to move on. No doubt this thread will rumble on with its discussions both humorous and serious. That's what lively debate is all about.

[The Stationmaster]

 

 

We have to remember the paperwork and official side has also moved on since those heady days, most think for the worse, especially with the amount of form-filling and box-ticking that we discussed earlier in this thread.

 

We all have to move on. No doubt this thread will rumble on with its discussions both humorous and serious. That's what lively debate is all about.

Oddly most of the paperwork should always have been there and the worrying thing in many cases is that it wasn't - however in the same way as the professionalism of, say, mechanical engineering. has changed and improved over the years so too should the professionalism of record keeping and procedures have improved (and in more than a few cases it had).   The odd thing tho' is the question of box-ticking which is a next to useless way of effectively managing anything but has become beloved of many with a limited understanding of what is really involved in, say, safety competence assessments.

 

ROGS too has become a dirty word with many but apart from, arguably, requiring someone to produce a written down Safety Management System in a single set of documents ROGS introduced nothing new at all in the way of record keeping although it opened up an interesting area regarding competencies etc (which in my view isn't at all as bad as it sounds - unless the legal trade get involved).

 

So - as with building skills and practice in the way you describe so too should teh recording element have grown alongside it; the painful bit is having ti catch up.

[ess1uk]

i'd say lack of money and lack of volunteers is equally critical.

its all very well having the money to pay for equipment but if there is no one to use it then it is not much use.

i'm a share holder in a small railway and would love to be able to pump more money into to it and to actually have enough time to make a visit now and then let alone have enough time to actually volunteer.

working away from home most weeks means the few hours at home on the weekend are precious at the moment.

There is the community pay back scheme though where offenders do work at the railway to give something back to the community, with the bonus of picking up new skills.