What's the bigger worry for the future of the preservation moment; lack of money or lack of volunteers?

[AMJ]

Thanks Jamie for the positive comments.

 

At Middleton Railway just like any organisation there are cliques where person X doesn't get on too well with Y.  We just have to accept it, as a friend (from school days - I left in 1988) says "nod and smile".  (It's from a carry on film).

 

Often we work the other way round to others, show folks what we do and explain we all have our own skill sets and know when to ask for help.  They often become a working member.  I understand we have a higher percentage of the members who work at the railway than others even for such a small membership.

 

Many years ago after I had been at the railway for quite a few years mum suggested to dad he might like to dust off his engineering skills and go down and help.  Note it was suggested to him by SWMBO!  As per the Horse Tram thread (in tramway section) you can see some of his work and he enjoys making and mending various items.  Jamies hand rail knobs are one he espescially enjoyed the challenge of.

 

There are some who have skill sets that just enable them to needle gun, paint primer and undercoat.

 

Money if you ask the right people you will always get enough.  Best idea is only do something when you have the money to do it, never borrow anything as this is how you get into trouble either personally or as a railway.

[jamie92208]

Thanks Jamie for the positive comments.

 

At Middleton Railway just like any organisation there are cliques where person X doesn't get on too well with Y.  We just have to accept it, as a friend (from school days - I left in 1988) says "nod and smile".  (It's from a carry on film).

That is true of all voluntary organisations and needs to be managed. In fact the Open University Business Schoolhas a special module in it's MBA course about managing in the voluntary sector. Volunteers can always walk and getting the best out of them is not always easy. One charity that i helped at was very bad at keeping everyone working and i ended walking way as I couldn't stand my time being wasted due to poor organisation. (For various reasons it wasn't practical for me to get involved and try and change things). The good preserved railways have good volunteer programmes and value the volunteers. After all the most valuable thing that anyone can give to an organisation is their time.

 

Jamie

[Ozexpatriate]

I've stayed away from this topic because I can't really offer an informed opinion, having never been on the 'inside' of a preserved railway but I'd think the critical resources (in order) are:

 

1. know-how

2. money

3. volume of volunteers

 

All of these influence what can pragmatically be done for a given institution.

 

'Know-how' here is a bit of a catch-all and it is really institutional memory and not confined to one person. It's not focused on railway operations.

a. It's partly understanding how to run the 'business'

.... marketing, attracting paying customers, maintaining a following, managing the inevitable internal cliques,

b. It's partly knowing how to get the mechanical things done, and

c. it's partly understanding what details you want to get 'right' from a historical perspective.

 

The mechanical things are getting harder and harder. In a sense steam might even be easier than mid-century diesel/electric. It's easier to fabricate machine parts than mid-20th century electrics, but even with this, reproducing some steam era things is really hard - as the Tornado team learned. The old erecting shops with their huge lathes are gone. Cars and trucks are not built the same way steam engines were.

 

The details are hard too. How many 'discussions' do we have here about whether the insides of GWR wagons were painted or exactly what shade of sage the LSWR used? Preserved railways have these problems too. At a certain point the physical evidence is gone. How do you balance contemporary operating safety rules with maintaining the atmosphere you want, spanning things as varied as signalling practices and visible equipment in the yard.

 

Preserving the institutional knowledge of how to get things done as the volunteer force ages seems to me to be the hardest and most important work for sustaining any working preserved railway.

[Horsetan]

Biggest worry has to be money - or lack of it. It all depends on how long the current recession lasts.

Yes, much of the available cash seems to be going on the latest "must have" from Hornby, Bachmann, Dapol, Heljan, etc.

 

Sorry, did someone say there was a recession?

[PhilH]

One thing I've been meaning to say is that there are some new volunteers who turn up, get allocated jobs and then decide they don't like the jobs they are given. Although obviously in an ideal world necessary tasks would be exactly matched to a volunteer's existing or potential skill sets there are many, many jobs which nobody in their right mind would choose to undertake.

 

I've seen more than a few volunteers who want to cherry pick jobs for themselves, and will do no other work than those - I would contend that this is not the sort of potential volunteer any railway would benefit from as existing volunteers can easily be alienated if they continually get the dirtiest, most boring, heaviest etc. jobs, the 'better' ones going to newbies. This is probably why only the most pragmatic and adaptable individuals enjoy lengthy spells in any voluntary organisation.

 

If a potential volunteer has not been given their preferred job they then often stop volunteering at the railway citing the railway's lack of welcome or cliques as the reason for their departure.

 

There are always two sides to every story, it's not always the railway's fault that volunteers sometimes just don't fit in.

[Boris]

There's nothing quite like the preserved railway scene for the breeding of politics, cliques and funny handshakes.

[PhilH]

There's nothing quite like the preserved railway scene for the breeding of politics, cliques and funny handshakes.

From my experience, not so.

[jamie92208]

There's nothing quite like the preserved railway scene for the breeding of politics, cliques and funny handshakes.

All other voluntary organisations that I've been invloved in can be just as bad.  Unfortunately some churches that I've know have been the worst.

 

Jamie

[Horsetan]

...  Unfortunately some churches that I've know have been the worst....

Holier-than-thou?

[HullCityB17]

I would say it depends on the size of the railway or Preservation Group. Speaking on behalf of the C58LG we can only have a limited amount of volunteers working on 58016 at any one time due to lack of power outlets and limited amount of tools. Also, we are currently sharing tools and cabinet space with the Class 56 Group so again are restricted. Only some many angle grinders. We only have a single power socket by 58016. We only have two extension leads, one long and one short.

For us the biggest worry is the lack of money, as we are paying rent for our loco's, as well as paying for the repairs and also replacing tools, and PPE Equipment. We have no timescale for the restoration, so we can take our time and the lack of volunteers is less of an issue.

We have a mixture of experienced and non experienced volunteers. We do not discriminate. I myself, have no railway experience. We have an experienced Sheet Metal worker, three people from the Railway Industry one who helped Dapol & Heljan to produce the Class 58 Models and knows everything about the 58's. We also have volunteers who also volunteer at the National Railway Musuem.

Don't forgot too many volunteers spoil the broth.... There are certain times when we may require as many people as possibly, like preparing a loco for an event, then it will be all hands to the pump, but these are irregular occurrences.

After re-reading my post I need to make one or two things clear. Although there is limited capacity within our group and certain small groups for hands on restoration work which like mentioned in a previous post one or two newcomers may have expectations of joining a group just to volunteer. There are a number of other important jobs either on the Committee or fundraising type jobs which are equally important, which need to be filled, and no-one wants to do, but for a group to be successful must be filled each year.

These include Salesperson, Press Officer, Chairperson, Club Secretary, Membership Secretary, Newsletter Editor, Website Editor, Events Organisor etc. Then you have Railways like the NYMR where you need train staff, track crew, signallers, station staff, drivers & guards and catering staff and many more.

Back to the C58LG, we do not force members into jobs, posts or roles. If anything we ask members if we think they would like to get more involved in the group and if would like to take on a specific role. I cannot comment on the future situation of the Comittee. All I can say is that it is looking bleak to me with people stepping down from big roles with no known replacements.

[Lochty no more]

We have a member at the Kingdom of fife Railway Preservation Society who after 50 years in railway preservation spends half his time doing what needs done, spends the other half of his day doing what he enjoys doing. He has got the ballance right, that`s my role model ( learn from the wise ones ) - he is still first in and last out!

[The Stationmaster]

 

 How do you balance contemporary operating safety rules with maintaining the atmosphere you want, spanning things as varied as signalling practices and visible equipment in the yard.

 

 

In actual fact that is remarkably easy - provided you know what you're at when it comes to writing those safety Rules.  Where it does tend to go adrift the love of some preservationists to over-complicate things with signalling (for example) which doesn't match what they really need or ought to do for the right atmosphere or they run over-frequent train services which result in extra infrastructure that doesn't look right.  But some get it spot on with no trouble at all.

 

The only modern 'jarring note' you should see is usually hi-vis clothing although in workshops and work areas things have to be to current safety etc standards so they don't have any sort of period appearance (and Inspectors do their nut if they aren't up to modern standards).

[roythebus]

As a member of 3 railways here and one abroad, I find the attitudes of some railways towards volunteers somewhat discouraging. I won't name names for obvious reasons.

 

Railway 1, been a member for about 40 years, was a guard there for about 10 years, change of personal circumstances and minor medical problems forced me to give up, but I still help out a couple of times a year at special events. Still very friendly, but overrun with paperwork.

 

Railways 2 and 3, joined when I moved to the area. Railway 2, introduced myself as an ex BR driver and restorer, was told that if I wanted to drive, I'd have to work in the shop, do platform duties, do the workshop, pass out as dispatcher before looking at a loco. I ended up helping with Santa Specials for a couple of years.

Railway 3, introduced myself as ex BR driver and restorer, member of railway 1 for years etc...was told I could be fast tracked to drive diesels, fine, suits me. But that fell apart for reasons I won't go into, none of them my fault. Tried as trainee fireman, got fed up being given say 15 cleaning turns with 3 ride on the loco days, collapsed with heat exhaustion one day, haven't been back since. No-one bothered to find out how I was; the sarcasm of one driver prior to that event was unbelievable. If these people really want volunteers they ought to look inwards. I've done a bit on a c&w diesel project, but doing restoration full time means I need a break from it at weekends!

 

Railway 4 abroad, badly run, lack of volunteers but loadsa money. Basically at the stage most railways were in the UK in 1970, this outfit having been going since 1968 still doesn't have basic hand wash facilities at the depot. However, I've been made to feel welcome despite language problems, there's very little in the way of paperwork, but not very safe in some areas! My skills as a restorer have been welcomed and I get the occasional driving turn under supervision.

 

Back to railway 3, someone there accused me of demanding a ride on the footplate and being there for the ego trip. I told him I had that back in 1977-78 when I was a secondman at Kings Cross working on Deltics. (see fastest Deltics thread elsewhere on this forum)...Guess what, they're short of drivers because the Ops manager is usually covering driver vacancies, can't pass out firemen to drive because he's covering driver vacancies and so it goes round and round.

 

So, easter weekend I'll be abroad where my services will be welcome, early May railway 1 for the beerfest. Railway 2 will get my subs this year despite being within walking distance, railway 3 will see me later in the year.

 

But then it's partly the cost of getting to place, but the attitude of other volunteers and management play a large part of it. Oh, and the paperwork! Almost non-existant abroad, but here, sign for everything, pass out, H&S mad.

[The Stationmaster]

As a member of 3 railways here and one abroad, I find the attitudes of some railways towards volunteers somewhat discouraging. I won't name names for obvious reasons.

 

Railway 1, been a member for about 40 years, was a guard there for about 10 years, change of personal circumstances and minor medical problems forced me to give up, but I still help out a couple of times a year at special events. Still very friendly, but overrun with paperwork.

 

Railways 2 and 3, joined when I moved to the area. Railway 2, introduced myself as an ex BR driver and restorer, was told that if I wanted to drive, I'd have to work in the shop, do platform duties, do the workshop, pass out as dispatcher before looking at a loco. I ended up helping with Santa Specials for a couple of years.

Railway 3, introduced myself as ex BR driver and restorer, member of railway 1 for years etc...was told I could be fast tracked to drive diesels, fine, suits me. But that fell apart for reasons I won't go into, none of them my fault. Tried as trainee fireman, got fed up being given say 15 cleaning turns with 3 ride on the loco days, collapsed with heat exhaustion one day, haven't been back since. No-one bothered to find out how I was; the sarcasm of one driver prior to that event was unbelievable. If these people really want volunteers they ought to look inwards. I've done a bit on a c&w diesel project, but doing restoration full time means I need a break from it at weekends!

 

Railway 4 abroad, badly run, lack of volunteers but loadsa money. Basically at the stage most railways were in the UK in 1970, this outfit having been going since 1968 still doesn't have basic hand wash facilities at the depot. However, I've been made to feel welcome despite language problems, there's very little in the way of paperwork, but not very safe in some areas! My skills as a restorer have been welcomed and I get the occasional driving turn under supervision.

 

Back to railway 3, someone there accused me of demanding a ride on the footplate and being there for the ego trip. I told him I had that back in 1977-78 when I was a secondman at Kings Cross working on Deltics. (see fastest Deltics thread elsewhere on this forum)...Guess what, they're short of drivers because the Ops manager is usually covering driver vacancies, can't pass out firemen to drive because he's covering driver vacancies and so it goes round and round.

 

So, easter weekend I'll be abroad where my services will be welcome, early May railway 1 for the beerfest. Railway 2 will get my subs this year despite being within walking distance, railway 3 will see me later in the year.

 

But then it's partly the cost of getting to place, but the attitude of other volunteers and management play a large part of it. Oh, and the paperwork! Almost non-existant abroad, but here, sign for everything, pass out, H&S mad.

Interesting comments there Roy and almost all indicative of managerial problems.  Every Railway should have set out on paper (less than a page will do quite nicely and one I know uses a ledger) it's method of progression to get to Driver with record of progress.  As it happens ORR Inspectors will ask to see it and ensure that there is a record but the need to maintain one is nothing new - I had one set up where i was when I was involved in preservation operations back in the 1980s,  Similarly health records are nothing new - all Railways should have had them for years (but many didn't) and they should keep a record of Rule Book etc issues and have proof of them plus exam and assessment records - again nothing new, they should have had them for years but quite a few didn't.

 

And that is about it on the paperwork side - all, on a decently run concern - should be long established, simple to understand and maintain, and readily available for checking by an ORR Inspector or outside auditor.  And it helps save the Railway a lot of money in the unfortunate event of an incident.  And of course nowadays it is all incorporated into the Railway's SMS (Safety Management System) which is now wholly a legal requirement (although most of it has long been a legal requirement under other bits of legislation.  And no need to be H&S mad either - most of it is commonsense which should be written into the Railway's Rule Book and operating and engineering procedures and thus part of the everyday way of doing things almost without any additional thought.  If it ain't like that then something is wrong - managerially.

[roythebus]

Yes I agree with you there Mike! I reckon it's the SMS that causes all the additional paperwork, with trainee log books, tick the boxes etc.

 

Details of rule book issue/passing out/medical have to my knowledge always been there. Even on the abroad railway their drivers have to undergo an annual medical in Liege, even if they have a psv drivers medical!

 

Part of my medical problem on railway 3 was my BMI was too high. An appeal to the railway doctor soon resolvde it after my own doc said it would help me lose weight working on a steam loco; it was also pointed out by the loco honcho at the time that the England world cup winning Rugby squad were all well over on their BMI, except with them it was probably all muscle and not the product of Youngs Brewery!!

 

Wherever there's a heritage railway, there's management problems and various "cliques" and the "I've been here since 1971 so I should do that before you" brigade.

[bob hughes60]

Shouldn't Preservation societies be taking account of demographics?

The potential market of young volunteers will be getting smaller and smaller the "pool" is retirees who are to a very large extent fitter ,healthier and with more life skills than their predecessors?

Secondly what money is around is largely "silver money" i.e. the owners are grey shouldn't some of the activities be directed as this group?

So if you want to recruit shouldn't your targets be directed towards the largest cohort available?

MY CV says I have a Ph.D was a lecturer, student services manager and OFSTED inspector. This would imply I don't like getting my hands dirty.

Having worked as street cleaner, bin man, industrial cleaner etc etc. and having a house not on mains sewage I don't mind getting my hands dirty.

As a retiree I  hadn't thought of doing work on a railway but then I saw the railway programme on Scotland and the guy walking and checking the (fishplated) track on the highland line in all weathers.

I could do that ? I thought. The other item that made me sit up and take notice was the dining pullman train - like to do that one (Orient expressish?)

Preservation societies should realise that a lot of employers (and finance people) hold annual seminars for staff coming up to retirement; voluntary work is usually stated as a possibility but glossed over.

Why not attempt to give talks to this potential audience?

Anyway as I live in the northwest about 15 miles east from Manchester so I'll wait for the offers to flood in.

Alternatively I'll take abuse.

Don't forget volunteering and commitees bring out the meanness of the human spirit.

Bob Hughes

[The Stationmaster]

Yes I agree with you there Mike! I reckon it's the SMS that causes all the additional paperwork, with trainee log books, tick the boxes etc.

 

I had a lovely 'debate' with the Inspectorate about that on behalf of one railway - it maintained perfectly adequate details in a ledger and all easily followed and comprehensive plus signed off on every occasion by the General Manager.  The ORR Inspector demanded all sorts of forms and whatever but we very carefully pointed out to him, and then to his boss, that the requirement is merely to keep accurate records of a trainee's progress and the areas in which he has been trained/gained experience (i.e firing a loco and familiarity with the necessary controls in order to do that safely and efficiently) and there is no requirement at all for a tick sheet of any sort.  As it happens I regard many tick sheets as extremely dangerous pieces of paper - they encourage shoddiness in my view and the latest approach to personal training and standards now emerging in Australia is to do away with them completely

 

Oh, and guess what - in the debate with the Inspectorate we won, and that Railway still records details in a ledger (and that is written into their SMS).

[roythebus]

Excellent news there Mike about doing away with tick sheets! Typical of the aussies to do away with them first, but then they appear to have done away with the policitcal correctness culture that has grown up in the UK over the last 20 years!

 

As for what Bob Hughes says above, yes, he's right, the silver pound is maybe where we should be chasing, but we also need to encourage the younger generation so that we can collectively pass on our skills. I suspect a lot of our knowledge may end up here, on the internet, for future generations to read about, but that is no substitute for meeting people like us face to face.

 

I have to fill in a tick sheet every time I take one of my historic buses out on the road beacause VOSA expect me to do so; they also expect me to put my tacho disc in 15 minutes before I start to drive to show that I've allowed time to do my walk-round check as it's part of my work. None of that PROVES I've inspected a single item I should look at, it just proves I've complied with the latest fetish from the authorities and ticked the boxes!

[The Stationmaster]

Excellent news there Mike about doing away with tick sheets! Typical of the aussies to do away with them first, but then they appear to have done away with the policitcal correctness culture that has grown up in the UK over the last 20 years!

 

As for what Bob Hughes says above, yes, he's right, the silver pound is maybe where we should be chasing, but we also need to encourage the younger generation so that we can collectively pass on our skills. I suspect a lot of our knowledge may end up here, on the internet, for future generations to read about, but that is no substitute for meeting people like us face to face.

 

I have to fill in a tick sheet every time I take one of my historic buses out on the road beacause VOSA expect me to do so; they also expect me to put my tacho disc in 15 minutes before I start to drive to show that I've allowed time to do my walk-round check as it's part of my work. None of that PROVES I've inspected a single item I should look at, it just proves I've complied with the latest fetish from the authorities and ticked the boxes!

Shows up the whole stupidity of tick sheets does that Roy - they really are a nonsense.

 

Incidentally from what I saw when doing a big risk assessment job a few years back there is quite a strong PC lobby in Aus but while they have had some impact there is also a lot of commonsense in just laughing at them and no fear of criticising their witterings and dafter ideas etc - even on tv.  But as you say it is interesting that a lead on getting away from the tick sheet culture is coming from there and according to someone I know who does a lot of this kind of work out there a number of companies are not only finding the change successful but it is having a positive effect on the morale of their workforce.  The chap I occasionally do bits for takes a similar approach within his set-up and it too seems to work pretty well.

[darren01]

HI 

A few years ago I joined a local preservation group and gave them a hand when I could, when they got round to laying some track, I told them that laying the sleepers straight on to the mud was a bad idea.

But was told to shut up as I did not know what I was talking about! .

So once they had put the track down they just filled between the sleeper with ballast .just as you do on a layout!.

A few month later they had an open day and ran there 20 ton shunter up and down giving rides, was OK for the first few runs then BANG!, the track had dropped down about 4”,that was the end of the rides .

I never went back after this .

Darren

[Ozexpatriate]

 

How do you balance contemporary operating safety rules with maintaining the atmosphere you want, spanning things as varied as signalling practices and visible equipment in the yard.

In actual fact that is remarkably easy - provided you know what you're at when it comes to writing those safety Rules.  Where it does tend to go adrift the love of some preservationists to over-complicate things with signalling (for example) which doesn't match what they really need or ought to do for the right atmosphere or they run over-frequent train services which result in extra infrastructure that doesn't look right.  But some get it spot on with no trouble at all.

 

The only modern 'jarring note' you should see is usually hi-vis clothing although in workshops and work areas things have to be to current safety etc standards so they don't have any sort of period appearance (and Inspectors do their nut if they aren't up to modern standards).

Yes. It was things like hi-vis and modern 'cherry-picker' lifts rather than dodgey ladders that I was thinking of.

 

On the signalling side I think I had in mind things like the modern signal lights on the Bluebell extension and the idea of replicating (preserving?) something like the original GWR ATC equipment. (It's a given that all real operating railways need to be safe.)

[phil-b259]

Yes. It was things like hi-vis and modern 'cherry-picker' lifts rather than dodgey ladders that I was thinking of.

 

On the signalling side I think I had in mind things like the modern signal lights on the Bluebell extension and the idea of replicating (preserving?) something like the original GWR ATC equipment. (It's a given that all real operating railways need to be safe.)

Its worth noting that colour lights are not un-authentic things to have alongside steam traction - and big 4 traction at that. London Bridge was given colour light signalling in the 1920s, the Brighton main line (Coulsdon North - Brighton via the quarry lines) in the early 30s, Waterloo in 1936, Horsham in 1938. OK the southern went for three rather than five lights on junction indicators and the heads had 'pigs ears' secondary lights rather than the 'hot strips' on modern lenses but the overall point still stands

[Ozexpatriate]

London Bridge was given colour light signalling in the 1920s, the Brighton main line (Coulsdon North - Brighton via the quarry lines) in the early 30s, Waterloo in 1936, Horsham in 1938. ... but the overall point still stands

So the Bluebell is using signals that are replicas of those used by the SR in the 1930s?

 

Lot's of pictures of SR colour light signalling from 1935 here.

[The Stationmaster]

So the Bluebell is using signals that are replicas of those used by the SR in the 1930s?

 

Lot's of pictures of SR colour light signalling from 1935 here.

Regrettably not.  As they had to get colour lights due to availability problems for anything else I think they might have given thought to doing it - as far as is practicable in SR (or even Southern Region) style but they - or their contractor? - clearly and obviously decided not to do it that way.  Bit unfortunate really but not to difficult to come along in future and make a few cosmetic changes (and get rid of that nonsensical distant signal plate!!!).

 

However in the meanwhile if you want something much nearer to SR style colour light signalling the Mid Hants obliges - rather nicely

[ForestPines]

The only modern 'jarring note' you should see is usually hi-vis clothing although in workshops and work areas things have to be to current safety etc standards so they don't have any sort of period appearance (and Inspectors do their nut if they aren't up to modern standards).

 

As a matter of interest, I currently have an up-to-date rulebook for one preserved line, and at a rough guess the section on where you should not wear hi-vis, to maintain the atmosphere, is probably longer than the section on where you should!  It also states that their principle is that you shouldn't be wearing hi-vis if you're working in a public-facing role, unless absolutely necessary.

 

In terms of volunteers cherry-picking jobs, I've volunteered on three railways, and have never had any issues getting into the department I wanted to other than having to wait either on a waiting list for training, or for a suitable working party to be scheduled.  At the other railway (the first I volunteered for), a fairly small one, all I did was phone the head of the department I was interested in, and was told to turn up wearing overalls on the first Saturday I was free.  The waiting list was for an operational role, but even there I didn't face any pressure to move into other areas of the railway whilst waiting other than one question about it at my initial interview.