Level crossing stupidity...

[phil-b259]

It does seem odd that railway/airfield crossing traffic control lights are different to those used everywhere else on the road network. 

 

NO IT DOESN'T

 

You need to consider the fact that wig wags mean an ABSOLUTE STOP TO EVERYBODY including the emergency services. An ordinary traffic light can be passed at red by any 'blue light' service or on the advice of a police officer.

 

This is important because things like a aircraft performing an emergency landing a swing bridge in the open position or an approaching train have very little chance of taking evading action so the result of a collision is pretty much terminal to the motorist (plus possibly those onboard the train / plane.

 

To move to conventional traffic lights would require a significant change in UK law, and could be even more confusing having one visually identical set of lights with two meanings. It would also cause confusion for those using vhicles overseas as in 99% of countries level crossings do not have 'normal traffic lights' favouring a design similar in principle and operation to the wig-wags we have in the UK

 

Besides given the numbers of people who continue to jump the lights (particularly at night when the consequences are perceived to be minimal) I do not believe that fitting them to level crossings would improve compliance.

 

At the end of the day IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE MOTORIST TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND UK TRAFFIC SIGNS IF THEY WANT TO KEEP HOLD OF THEIR DRIVING LICENCE. IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE in my book and anyone trying to plead such mitigation should immediately have their licence revoked and made to take the WHOLE test again from scratch.

[martin_wynne]

NO IT DOESN'T

 

You need to consider the fact that wig wags mean an ABSOLUTE STOP TO EVERYBODY including the emergency services. An ordinary traffic light can be passed at red by any 'blue light' service or on the advice of a police officer.

 

This is important because things like a aircraft performing an emergency landing a swing bridge in the open position or an approaching train have very little chance of taking evading action so the result of a collision is pretty much terminal to the motorist (plus possibly those onboard the train / plane.

 

To move to conventional traffic lights would require a significant change in UK law, and could be even more confusing having one visually identical set of lights with two meanings. It would also cause confusion for those using vhicles overseas as in 99% of countries level crossings do not have 'normal traffic lights' favouring a design similar in principle and operation to the wig-wags we have in the UK

 

Besides given the numbers of people who continue to jump the lights (particularly at night when the consequences are perceived to be minimal) I do not believe that fitting them to level crossings would improve compliance.

 

At the end of the day IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE MOTORIST TO KNOW AND UNDERSTAND UK TRAFFIC SIGNS IF THEY WANT TO KEEP HOLD OF THEIR DRIVING LICENCE. IGNORANCE IS NO EXCUSE in my book and anyone trying to plead such mitigation should immediately have their licence revoked and made to take the WHOLE test again from scratch.

 

And where in any of that rant was there any suggestion that it might be a good idea to try to help drivers deal with level crossings? Even the imperfect ones who are ordinary fallible human beings?

 

I don't see why adding a green "it's safe to cross" light would change the meaning of the wig-wags. But it would make the lights more familiar and instantly understandable to drivers. Approaching traffic lights you expect to see a light of some kind, and react accordingly. The absence of any light is unnerving.

 

Martin.

[jamie92208]

Just to bring a bit of light heartedness back to this thread.  The Settle Junction Up starter has been a colour light since the 60's.  It is next to the A65 road pointing towards Settle where I grew up.   When it was first installed there were many stories circulating locally of motorists who, at night, stopped on the A65 until the 'traffic light' turned to green.

 

Jamie

[lmsforever]

To many drivers nowadays do not want to be slowed down by any type of obstruction I have lost track of the number of times cars barely slowing when joining he road I am on so a level crossing is no different to them.Perhaps pop up cattle type grids would discourage creeping or driving straight through but the only answer is education and this does seem to be happening and maybe less of how busy we all are would help.

[phil-b259]

And where in any of that rant was there any suggestion that it might be a good idea to try to help drivers deal with level crossings? Even the imperfect ones who are ordinary fallible human beings?

 

I don't see why adding a green "it's safe to cross" light would change the meaning of the wig-wags. But it would make the lights more familiar and instantly understandable to drivers. Approaching traffic lights you expect to see a light of some kind, and react accordingly. The absence of any light is unnerving.

 

Martin.

 

Stop making excuses.

 

If somethings wrong, its wrong and should not played down when it shows the individual is not complying with the law. Rather it should be used as an example to try and prevent others from adopting the same behaviour.

 

If drivers require help then there are plenty of books, leaflets, government websites, Network Rail information out there to allow drivers to refresh their memory. There have also been plenty of publicity campaigns over recent years to do with level crossings which should have jogged their memories.

 

See here (found by searching for "UK traffic signs" on the net) https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/222621/dg_191955.pdf

 

Or here (found by searching for "Network rail level crossings") http://www.networkrail.co.uk/level-crossings/

 

Society these days is too fond of being spoon fed everything - there is something called personal responsibility, which lots of people seem to have forgotten about. Whether it is NOT throwing empty drink bottles, burger wrappers, costa / starbucks cups out of the window, or keeping your knowledge as regards road signage up to date it is the responsibility of the individual person to behave correctly.

 

To drive a motor vehicle on UK roads motorists MUST familiarise themselves with the meanings of road signs and traffic signals. Its why, as part of the driving test candidates are expected to demonstrate they understand a selection. I don't recall there being a clause added to all UK traffic legislation that exempts you from obeying said legislation as you accrue more driving years. You wouldn't say to your driving instructor "Oh yeah I forgot" and expect to pass or expect the theory test computer to give you a pass anyway even  you failed the hazard perception test so why do you regard it perfectly acceptable to do the same later on once you have your licence.

 

I'm sorry but too many motorists seam to treat holding a driving licence as a basic human right - well I have got news for such types - IT ISN'T and its about time people woke up to that. It is your (and mine as a motorist of 20 years*) duty to pay attention when driving on our roads AND KNOW the meaning of all traffic signs & traffic signals used on UK roads is no different from the day we passed our tests. Nowhere on your driving licence does it say "right now you have passed you can forget all that you have learned" - it is YOUR responsibility (as a licensed driver) to maintain and keep that knowledge fresh.

 

*(and before you ask I have been caught speeding before and faced the consequences of my actions without trying to make up some sort of nonsense along the lines that it wasn't my fault for not seeing traffic signs (which includes lamp posts with regard to speed limits) and obeying them)

 

Level crossings are hardly an unusual phenomenon across the UK - and in most cases they are also fitted with instruction signs for any motorist struggling to remember that say "STOP when lights show". If a UK licence holder has trouble understanding that then they shouldn't be on the road.

Edited May 6, 2015 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

Just to bring a bit of light heartedness back to this thread.  The Settle Junction Up starter has been a colour light since the 60's.  It is next to the A65 road pointing towards Settle where I grew up.   When it was first installed there were many stories circulating locally of motorists who, at night, stopped on the A65 until the 'traffic light' turned to green.

Funny you should mention that one, years ago I've thought exactly the same thing when seeing that signal from the road, at least until I got closer.

[martin_wynne]

Level crossings are hardly an unusual phenomenon across the UK - and in most cases they are also fitted with instruction signs for any motorist struggling to remember that say "STOP when lights show". If a UK licence holder has trouble understanding that then they shouldn't be on the road.

 

But they are on the road. And if I was on the train I would rather try something to help them rather than read them a lecture.

 

Martin.

[Reorte]

To many drivers nowadays do not want to be slowed down by any type of obstruction I have lost track of the number of times cars barely slowing when joining he road I am on so a level crossing is no different to them.Perhaps pop up cattle type grids would discourage creeping or driving straight through but the only answer is education and this does seem to be happening and maybe less of how busy we all are would help.

The education needs to happen from an early age, long before driving or level crossings are in any way involved. When children are brought up by parents with little notion of responsibility they're unlikely to get one themselves.

[The Stationmaster]

Rather 'firmly' put Phil but 'yes'.  The question of providing a green at railway level crossings has been considered on a number of occasions by folk far more versed in the matter than anyone on here and it has been rejected every time.  I think that is good sense because immediately there is a green light there which changes to another colour motorists will think of it in exactly teh same way as ordinary road traffic signals and the dumber among their number will try to 'beat the lights'.  The whole point is that we are talking about something very different from an ordinary traffic intersection and with far more serious consequences if you do make a hash of 'beating the lights' because in this case the other party - a train - can't stop or swerve to reduce or avoid the impact, it will hit the road vehicle and in many instances devour it.

 

The procedures for motorists approaching level crossings are simple - if the lights start to flash you should stop, what could be simpler (assuming you brakes work)?

[fender]

tbh I think expecting society to improve itself from the bottom up, while laudable, is unrealistic. the only way to stop people committing such driving offences is to find some way of gathering evidence against them and then administering draconian fines.

[ZiderHead]

I think it very much depends on where you live as to whether crossings are unusual or not.

 

A quick google suggests 6,300 crossings in the UK and 250,000 miles of roads - a crossing for every 40 miles of road so everyone should be very familiar with them. I'll bet that isn't the case for the vast majority of motorists though. I can drive all year without crossing a railway, and I would if I didn't regularly choose a route which includes one. It adds 10mins to my journey but … I might get to see a train! And it has a wicked right-left which requires pretty much all the tools in my box to get through swiftly and smoothly (trail braking while heel'n'toeing, roll oversteer etc.)

 

A green light would be reassuring - I always look left and right to check for trains anyway but sighting isn't great - the absence of red/amber lights does not tell me its safe to cross, it just tells me there are no red/amber lights lit. Whether thats because there are no trains coming, or signal failure, or some scrote has nicked the cabling … who knows?

[Jonboy]

Indeed I have driven around 10,000 miles in the last 12 months and the only level crossing I have been over is the one over the bunk line in Wallingford, not exactly a hotbed of activity, although the wife finds it funny how disappointed I can get at not being stopped

[phil-b259]

Rather 'firmly' put Phil

 

I know Mike, but I am getting fed up with the 'its not my fault' culture that the UK population seams to be embracing.

 

All I want is for people holding a driving licence to behave correctly - treating it as a privilege to be treasured and not a right that once bestowed requires no further attention from the recipient and one that can only be removed in the most heinous of circumstances.

[bodmin16]

http://youtu.be/lvZSKf3YsSE

 

Enough said!

[ZiderHead]

More than enough!

[beast66606]

And it has a wicked right-left which requires pretty much all the tools in my box to get through swiftly and smoothly (trail braking while heel'n'toeing, roll oversteer etc.)

 

 

Interesting - driving on the public highway is about getting from A to B safely, not about willy waving.

[phil-b259]

I think it very much depends on where you live as to whether crossings are unusual or not.

 

A quick google suggests 6,300 crossings in the UK and 250,000 miles of roads - a crossing for every 40 miles of road so everyone should be very familiar with them. I'll bet that isn't the case for the vast majority of motorists though.

 

Indeed I have driven around 10,000 miles in the last 12 months and the only level crossing I have been over is the one over the bunk line in Wallingford, not exactly a hotbed of activity

 

When I said Level crossings were not an unusual phenomenon I was speaking generally - not all areas of the UK have motorways for example, yet motorists from those areas are still expected to know about them and the matrix signs fitted to them when they pass their test. Going back to crossings, while obviously some areas will have more than others and people may not use them on a regular basis, they are not restricted to say northern Scotland, or are only found in Cornwall etc.

 

Wig wags themselves of course also appear outside some fire stations, at the ends of some runways, at some bridges etc -  though they may be activated less often than a level crossing.

[Jonboy]

Don't worry Phil I thought your recent post was bang on the money.

[martin_wynne]

All this reforming of society and throwing the book at them isn't going to save a single life before Christmas.

 

A big matrix sign saying "THE TRAIN CANNOT STOP" might.

 

Martin.

[ZiderHead]

Interesting - driving on the public highway is about getting from A to B safely, not about willy waving.

 

I figure if I can improve my skills and have a little fun with no risk or inconvenience to myself or others, within the law, and at ~40mph then it would almost be negligent not to!

[phil-b259]

All this reforming of society and throwing the book at them isn't going to save a single life before Christmas.

 

A big matrix sign saying "THE TRAIN CANNOT STOP" might.

 

Martin.

 

Sheesh, do you need someone to tell actively yell at you every time you boil the kettle just in case you forget the water might be hot. - because thats what your counter argument sounds like to me.

 

Trains are not cuddly fluffy animals and I would have thought it would be obvious to even the most intellectually challenged motorist that being hit by a large fast bit of metal isn't going to do you any good.

 

What part of THIS is so understand!

Edited May 6, 2015 by phil-b259

[Reorte]

Everyone knows that they won't come of well if they're going to get hit by a train, some people just take chances because they won't get hit by a train (according to whatever passes for thinking in their heads). The same people probably overtake on blind corners and hills "Yeah, it'll probably be fine." No amount of signs and warning will deter such people and theonly  measures that are capable of stopping them from being able to wreak havoc are usually pretty unappealing. Thanks for spoiling the world for the rest of us guys.

 

Then there are some inbetween who aren't fundamentally reckless but don't pay as much attention or give things as much thought as they should. More signs / warnings / whatever may do something about those. The green light idea may work for those, its absence being another "Stop" message, although if it's been looked at and concluded that it wouldn't, or would cause more problems, then that's that I suppose. These people may well respond to education (urgh, the way I say that sounds patronising), which is better than plastering the place with more signs stating the bleedingly obvious, to everyone else's annoyance.

 

Or so it seems to me anyway, all entirely opinion.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Reorte

[SHMD]

Interesting thread...

The Green Light “addition” is an interesting idea.

A lot of crossing gamblers (I assume) do it because they 'have done it before' with their thinking being reinforced/compounded by the thought 'are things working/is this another false trigger again?' (Usually after only pausing seconds and never actually having witnessed a failed crossing.)
Unlit lights are the same as dead/broken lights to a lot. (Some may even think they have 'right of way' – "but I was their first!")
This attitude can even be reinforced by motorists encountering crossings on disused lines that, to them, look identical but have had no trains for years.
Many even have experience of 'other' falsely triggered alarms - house/car alarms. A (Dim) motorist will use/extrapolate that experience to the other 'similar' ones.

 

Systems must be designed to protect against human nature. Not just what should be necessary in an ideal world.

Also, what was once right may not be now.

 

What about catering for different cultures??? Some beliefs/cultures take greater/more risks as they believe they can 'get away with this (admittedly) risky manoeuvre as it is not my day to die today'*.

(*Also applies to the young.)

 

In other safety critical industries they use beeps, sounding continuously, on the audible warning system – instead of silence – to show/give you confidence that the system is working and that if the klaxon does start warbling then it really is SERIOUS.

Here it was deemed that continuous positive-feedback was important.

Hmm...


Kev.

[phil-b259]

Interesting thread...

 

The Green Light “addition” is an interesting idea.

 

A lot of crossing gamblers (I assume) do it because they 'have done it before' with their thinking being reinforced/compounded by the thought 'are things working/is this another false trigger again?' (Usually after only pausing seconds and never actually having witnessed a failed crossing.)

Unlit lights are the same as dead/broken lights to a lot. (Some may even think they have 'right of way' – "but I was their first!")

This attitude can even be reinforced by motorists encountering crossings on disused lines that, to them, look identical but have had no trains for years.

Many even have experience of 'other' falsely triggered alarms - house/car alarms. A (Dim) motorist will use/extrapolate that experience to the other 'similar' ones.

 

Systems must be designed to protect against human nature. Not just what should be necessary in an ideal world.

Also, what was once right may not be now.

 

What about catering for different cultures??? Some beliefs/cultures take greater/more risks as they believe they can 'get away with this (admittedly) risky manoeuvre as it is not my day to die today'*.

(*Also applies to the young.)

 

In other safety critical industries they use beeps, sounding continuously, on the audible warning system – instead of silence – to show/give you confidence that the system is working and that if the klaxon does start warbling then it really is SERIOUS.

Here it was deemed that continuous positive-feedback was important.

 

Hmm...

 

 

Kev.

While a laudable thing to do in principle, such systems are designed on the basis that the relatively few people working with them are properly briefed and understand them - as highlighted we do not wish to provide anything that could be confused with an ordinary traffic light up due to the significant differences in law, and principle between wig wags and traffic lights.

 

It must also....

 

It must also NEVER be able to be interpreted as a 'go' indication by motorists - even unofficially.

 

It must be consistent across the country and fitted to ALL crossings with wig wags, lift bridges, airfields, fire stations, etc

 

It also MUST be fail safe - which in the context of a crossing means that if it is not proven the reds come on and down come the barriers.

 

Its function must be communicated clearly to the public through extensive advertising, etc

 

Which means that ......

 

It introduces another failure point

 

Requires significant expenditure (which would be better focused in getting rid of or upgrading crossings)

 

Is not cost effective in terms of securing compliance (compared to a Red light camera - the monies from which go to HM Treasury I hasten to add)

Edited May 6, 2015 by phil-b259

[The Stationmaster]

Indeed I have driven around 10,000 miles in the last 12 months and the only level crossing I have been over is the one over the bunk line in Wallingford, not exactly a hotbed of activity, although the wife finds it funny how disappointed I can get at not being stopped

The Wallingford level crossing is very interesting.  It has a very low rail usage rate and thus finding the lights and barriers operating can be an unusual event for road users plus it is on a very fast stretch of road where it is very easy to exceed the 60 mph speed limit because of the road geometry.  It is thus probably a very high level candidate for misuse but (oddly?) there doesn't seem to be any - it doesn't keep making the local news because of incidents and folk heavily involved with the railway (I know several very well) have never mentioned any problems.  Every time (not many admittedly) when I have approached by road when the lights have been illuminated traffic has been slowing & stopping in an orderly fashion with no 'beat the lights' behaviour apparent.  It is, without doubt, the level crossing I have used more frequently than any other and it does benefit from good road approach visibility.

 

Approaching trains are all but invisible to people on the road in cars (lorry drivers can probably see more) and on the one occasion I have driven over it on the railway I was very careful - as seems to be the usual situation to strictly observe the speed limit and 'whistle' boards.  One can but hope that having said all that it continues to have a good record!

 

 

A green light would be reassuring - I always look left and right to check for trains anyway but sighting isn't great - the absence of red/amber lights does not tell me its safe to cross, it just tells me there are no red/amber lights lit. Whether thats because there are no trains coming, or signal failure, or some scrote has nicked the cabling … who knows?

 

I think a green light would be a lot more worrying than no light to be honest if you are worried about failures.  The wrongside failure rate for automatic level crossings is miniscule - the biggest problem with AHBs in my experience is barriers failing to raise.  And of course with an AOC(L) if the road lights do fail a train will not cross the crossing until it has been ascertained that the road is clear and it is safe to proceed - the only potential problem I could envisage is the mix of failed crossing and a braking problem on the train and you are talking about some extremely long odds to get that combination, far longer than the odds on you killing yourself doing something in your own kitchen or while carrying out d-i-y.