SR allocated Class 24s

[10800]

This was alluded to in questions from Julian (JZ) at

http://www.rmweb.co....__1entry57877

 

concerning an Ebay purchase. Although Julian has decided to do his in blue, which is after the SR allocation period, it spurred me to revisit the thorny question of SR allocated 24s and the suitability of the Bachmann all-green models. Hopefully this may be of use to others.

 

Firstly, some historical background to add to what was already mentioned on JZ's topic. Most of this comes from www.derbysulzers.com and there is additional information in books such as the Diesels in Depth for Classes 24/25. Beware though, as there are some inconsistencies (regarding original fitting of Athermos axleboxes for instance) and always check more than one source if you can - and especially contemporary photos.

 

The SR requested an allocation of 24s before they were even introduced, to cover the delay in BRCW delivering their Type 3s (Class 33) while they were busy producing their Type 2s for the ER and ScR. D5000-5014 arrived on the SR (Hither Green) in March 1959, although D5008 was returned to the LMR for a testing programme a month later, replaced by D5017. It seems that D5008 returned to the SR in January 1960, with D5017 staying on.

 

They were about 5 tons overweight, and the SR Civil Engineer required some shedding of excess weight on some of them to improve availability. Steam heating boilers and water tanks were removed from D5002-5006 (although these were replaced in 1960). Also, double heading was not permitted initially, this was relaxed in June 1959. Double heading was common subsequently, either 2 x 24s or with a 33 (with the 24 usually as the train engine, especially in winter, to provide coach heating).

 

The BRCW Type 3s were delivered between March 1960 and January 1962. Between March and November 1962 the SR-allocated 24s returned to the LMR, the last to go being D5007.

 

Bachmann have produced two (Edit: three - D5030 also, thanks Oldddudders ) all-green 24s, D5054 (32-426) and more recently D5013 (32-430). They are the same AFAICT apart from slight differences in the axlebox mouldings (no, they're not Athermoses which have distinctive hexagonal covers). The photo shows the two sides:

 

 

There are a number of crucial areas to consider in deciding whether either of these is suitable as is for an SR-allocated loco (and don't let the number D5013 fool you). These mainly relate to grille patterns, water tanks and axleboxes, although there are probably others.

 

Water tanks (between the bogies, nearer to the No.2 end) were removed from D5002-5006, at least between

March 1959 and 1960. This rules out those locos from renumbering options, as - perhaps more significantly - does the fact that D5000-5006 had a split radiator grille (the big one) at the No.1 end. D5000 also (uniquely) had a thin body stripe.

 

With the No.1 end to the left, the Bachmann model (as shown by D5013 above) has four small grilles on the top row. At the time of the SR allocation, this only applied to D5003, and D5008-11 on the photos I have seen. D5000-2, 5004, 5005, 5007 and 5012/3 all had an extra grille to the left (and according to a later photo from 1964, D5000 lost the furthest right grille in the upper row at some point).

 

With the No.1 end to the right, as shown by the Bachmann D5054, note there are only three upper grilles on the model. This only applied to D5008-10, and I'm pretty sure D5011 as well (the picture is a bit gloomy to be 100%). All the others for which I have photos at this time (including D5013) have an extra grille near the No.1 end.

 

So without surgery, so far the only options we have for renumbering the Bachmann model to an SR-allocated one are D5008-10, and most probably D5011. Remember that D5008 was away between April 1959 and January 1960.

 

Now, axleboxes. Athermos axleboxes were fitted as new to D5010-5019 according to 'Diesels in Depth'. Although these got moved around a bit later on as bogies were swapped, I think it's reasonable to assume that SR-allocated locos from D5010-14 and D5017 had them throughout their stay, and I haven't seen any contemporary photos to contradict this. So we are now reduced to D5008 and D5009 as is, unless you make some representation of the Athermos covers in which case you can have D5010 and D5011 as well.

 

Finally, the Bachmann model has the water tank filler inlets (on the roof above the bodyside steps) without a cover. Even where the boilers and tanks remained, it seems these were covered over much of the time (maybe because most of the photos were outside the winter months when quick access would have been needed more often) and so it may be worth doing this small mod. OTOH there is a rare photo of a 24 with its tank being filled at Maidstone East in the Middleton Press 'Swanley to Ashford' book - and this was in April so what do I know really!

 

I hope this clarifies some of the issues in representing SR-allocated 24s. If anyone can add anything or correct any errors I might have made then please do so.

[Graham_Muz]

Hi Rod

 

A very useful and comprehensive post indeed.

 

I have modelled D5009. One thing not to forget is that all the SR allocated members of the class had two additional lamp irons added to replicate the smokebox lamp irons of the 6 lamp / disc positions still in use at the time. I simply added these to mine using Bambi staples.

[10800]

I have modelled D5009.

 

Bit late in period for you isn't it Graham?

[Graham_Muz]

Bit late in period for you isn't it Graham?

 

Hehe yes it is but a i have a few rakes that i use on other layouts that are outside my usual period including some rebuilt pacifics and a class 74!

[Pennine MC]

Thanks for this Rod; I've often half-heartedly started to pin down this 'extra grille' business but never persevered. However...

 

With the No.1 end to the right, as shown by the Bachmann D5054, note there are only three upper grilles on the model. This only applied to D5008-10, and I'm pretty sure D5011 as well (the picture is a bit gloomy to be 100%). All the others for which I have photos at this time (including D5013) have an extra grille near the No.1 end.

 

I've just looked at a scan that Nidge (rugd) sent me of 5012 from the mid-60s, and it only has three top row grilles on the side with No1 end to right. Another shot of it (2.10.65 in a book, also on the Rugby - Peterbro line, funnily enough ), confirms the same arrangement. 5010 on the opposite page also shows four top row grilles on the side with No1 end to left, which agrees with your notes

[David Bigcheeseplant]

This is a Bachmann 24 D5000 with the extra grill on each side and split radiator grill as modelled by Kevin Wood, and used on Saffron Street and will also be used on Aylesbury Town

 

David

[Oldddudders]

I have modelled D5009.

Suits me. D5009 was the first mainline diesel I saw, at Redhill in July 1960.

 

Oh, and Bachmann also do D5030 in plain green, sans yellow bits.

[SRman]

I have at least two photos of D5010 minus boiler water tanks. Some of the locos were swapped with the LMR at some stage so that numbers up to D5019 ran on SR metals. From memory (I'll check this later), D5018 and 5019 did not have the extra grilles so would be covered by the Bachmann model. AFAIK, there were only 15 out of the first twenty on the SR at any one time.

 

I bought the early issue D5054 and renumbered it to D5014 but have no photos of this particular locomotive at all to show whether I have chosen correctly or not - it was the easiest renumber as I only had to change one digit!!

 

 

[10800]

I've just looked at a scan that Nidge (rugd) sent me of 5012 from the mid-60s, and it only has three top row grilles on the side with No1 end to right. Another shot of it (2.10.65 in a book, also on the Rugby - Peterbro line, funnily enough ), confirms the same arrangement. 5010 on the opposite page also shows four top row grilles on the side with No1 end to left, which agrees with your notes

 

Thanks Ian - I didn't have a photo of that side of D5012, however the other side of D5012 has an extra fifth grille on the top row next to the No.1 end so it wouldn't have been an 'as is' candidate.

[10800]

I have at least two photos of D5010 minus boiler water tanks. Some of the locos were swapped with the LMR at some stage so that numbers up to D5019 ran on SR metals. From memory (I'll check this later), D5018 and 5019 did not have the extra grilles so would be covered by the Bachmann model. AFAIK, there were only 15 out of the first twenty on the SR at any one time.

 

If you have any more details of this I would be very interested to see them, thanks

 

I bought the early issue D5054 and renumbered it to D5014 but have no photos of this particular locomotive at all to show whether I have chosen correctly or not - it was the easiest renumber as I only had to change one digit!!

 

 

I only have a photo of the side with the No.1 end to the right of D5014. In this respect it has four upper grilles, the same as D5000-5007 and D5013 (I'm assuming 5005 is the same).

 

The dates do seem to be important as always - as mentioned in the OP D5000 lost one of its five upper grilles on one side at some point prior to 1965.

[pete_mcfarlane]

This is a Bachmann 24 D5000 with the extra grill on each side and split radiator grill as modelled by Kevin Wood, and used on Saffron Street and will also be used on Aylesbury Town

 

David

Nice - did he graft on the extra grills from a spare body?

[SRman]

If you have any more details of this I would be very interested to see them, thanks

 

 

 

I only have a photo of the side with the No.1 end to the right of D5014.? ? In this respect it has four upper grilles, the same as D5000-5007 and D5013 (I'm assuming 5005 is the same).

 

The dates do seem to be important as always - as mentioned in the OP D5000 lost one of its five upper grilles on one side at some point prior to 1965.

The photos are in books so are copyright. I am still trying to find the relevent ones but I am reasonably certain I have them close by. In?  Diesels on the Regions: Southern region there is a photo of D5010 with water tanks (cleaner than the rest of the underframe gear) and no extra grilles, dated May 1959. Not quite what we want but close (I'll keep looking)!! The centre panels of the valences are not sitting flush in this photo, suggesting something was done to the locomotive recently. This one also has Athermos axleboxes.

 

 

I only have a photo of the side with the No.1 end to the right of D5014. ? In this respect it has four upper grilles, the same as D5000-5007 and D5013 (I'm assuming 5005 is the same).

 

The dates do seem to be important as always - as mentioned in the OP D5000 lost one of its five upper grilles on one side at some point prior to 1965.

 

Yes - I noted that about D5000 in Brian Haresnape's BR Fleet Survey books. Thanks for that info on D5014 - it is as I feared. I'll just have to bite the bullet and renumber it properly (and not be so lazy!!). Admittedly mine has also lost its valences since I swapped chassis with the sound fitted 24 035 but that was a compromise I can accept until I get around to making some valences out of plasticard; something I have done once before when I converted a Hornby 25 into a 24 years ago.

 

Incidentally, D5017, pictured at Ashford in 1959 has the extra grilles (Diesels and Electrics on Shed: Vol 5).

 

 

[10800]

The photos are in books so are copyright.

 

Of course - I was mainly referring to data concerning D5018/9 allocated to the SR, I'm not aware of any other than the D5000-14 and D5017 already mentioned.

 

 

I am still trying to find the relevent ones but I am reasonably certain I have them close by. In Diesels on the Regions: Southern region there is a photo of D5010 with water tanks (cleaner than the rest of the underframe gear) and no extra grilles, dated May 1959. Not quite what we want but close (I'll keep looking)!! The centre panels of the valences are not sitting flush in this photo, suggesting something was done to the locomotive recently. This one also has Athermos axleboxes.

 

Yes I have that book - references are fine, I can chase them from here if I don't already have them.

 

 

Thanks for the help

[10800]

Does anyone have any ideas on representing Athermos axleboxes? Or is it just a plasticard scratch job?

[David Bigcheeseplant]

Nice - did he graft on the extra grills from a spare body?

 

The extra grills came from a doner 25 body.

 

David

[SRman]

I still haven't found those pics of D5010 - I hope it wasn't my imagination, but that particular one stuck in my mind for some reason.

 

Anyway, good news re D5018. In Rail Portfolios 8: The 24s and 25s (Hugh Dady), on page 5 there is a photo of D5018 heading a boat train through Sandling in June 1960. It has its boiler tanks and no extra grilles. I seem to recall a pic of both D5018 and D5019 somehwere; memory says it was a black and white print and both did not have the extra grilles.

 

[BrushVeteran]

Are these any help?

[Tim Chambers]

Don't know whether it's of any interest but I do remember D5012 on regular use on the Strood-Maidstone West line during (presumably) the late 1950s.Infuriating to recall but it was such a novelty that I got more worked up about the diesel than the usual diet of Us and Charlies(Q1s).Grrrrrrrr :icon_frustrated: :icon_frustrated: :icon_frustrated: Best wishes to all,Tim.

[10800]

Thanks for those pics BV , although they are all from the post SR period with at least SYPs added. Nevertheless, they corroborate in general the information I already have on grille patterns. However D5007/5012 now have the big grille at the No.2 end blanked over, and D5000 hasn't yet lost its extra small grille at the No.2 end. Water tanks have been reduced in most cases by the time of these photos.

[BrushVeteran]

Having looked through my Class 24 slides and b&w photos I think I am now a bit wiser regarding the grille formations. It's marvellous what evidence photos can provide you with! I am about to embark on a model of D5000 in green syp and was getting rather confused with the A side (main radiator on left)grille make up. When originally built D5000 had 4 on the top row and 4 on the bottom row. An extra top grille was added near the radiator soon after entering service. This stayed with the loco right through to scrapping as 24005. There is a photo of it being scrapped on Derby Sulzers site. The other (B) side had a 4 top and 4 bottom arrangement from new as did D5001-7 from new. The A side on these locos was also 5 top and 4 bottom. From D5008-12 the A side reverted to D5000 as built with 4 top and 4 bottom. The B side of these locos had 3 top and 4 bottom, the top grille adjacent to the radiator being deleted. From D5013-17 it reverted to a 5/4 A side and 4/4 B side arrangement. D5018 was an oddball with a 5/4 A side and 3/4 B side. I have no pictures of D5019 but D5020-9 appear to be 4/4 A side and 3/4 B side which was the arrangement that stayed with that bodyshell right through the class 25 build. The final nail in the coffin is that sometime in 1969 D5005 and D5025 changed identities. Rather than me raking up old coals I would point you in the direction of the 'Derby Sulzers' website. Having read these notes back it seems as clear as mud! ...so I hope you understand it.

[Pennine MC]

Having read these notes back it seems as clear as mud! ...so I hope you understand it.

 

If I read it very, very slowly B) Thanks for taking the time with that Grahame, I dunno about anybody else but there's more inconsistency there than I'd realised. I'm sure this will get referred back to.

[Guest oldlugger]

Very interesting Rod and great photos BV!

 

Cheers

Simon

[bécasse]

Some very useful analysis of the very confusing variations in grill patterns, but nobody has mentioned that there is another area which needs sorting out to make an accurate model and that is the most obvious one - the ROOF.

 

Some of the changes, such as to the exhaust port, there seem to be well recorded BUT nobody ever mentions that the three roof covers should line up and they don't, doubtless because the body shell started life as a class 25. Even Brassmasters don't offer a correcting etch for this, although I came to the conclusion that it isn't impossibly difficult to correct by sanding down the existing middle cover and adding a correctly sized middle cover in 10thou plastikard (in at least two sections).

 

I am not certain whether the two end covers might not come down marginally too far, but having all three in-line much improves the look of the model compared with how it came out of the box, and, of course, the roof is the one part of a model which is seen much more than in the prototype.

[Holmesfeldian]

The following page may be of interest for Class 24 Loco allocations at Hither Green (and Type 3s of course)

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=265

[The Bigbee Line]

The following page may be of interest for Class 24 Loco allocations at Hither Green (and Type 3s of course)

 

http://www.brdatabase.info/sites.php?page=depots&subpage=locos&id=265

Excellent website, some of the early allocations seem a bit off the mark. LNER tank locos?  B1's were they on the Southern Region?  I know there were some loco's on loan for various reasons.  All in all though a real asset for research.