Is British just another term for cheapskate?

[Talltim]

I admit that a loco will have more mechanical bits to get right, but apart from that why should they be any cheaper?

[Dagworth]

Have a look at the comments on here http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=lDDSB8r-Y7Q

I still get them now, people ask that can't be bothered to read the previous comments. I have no intention of building another one, it's MINE, I made it for ME and to make my layout different to everyone elses. No I won't make one for you and especially if you think you can pay me by postal order some months later, then when I tell you it will cost you a grand you say you don't want it now, then a year later ask me how much...

 

I ignore the questions now

Andi

[pete_mcfarlane]

I also do not generally believe it is a matter of folk thinking of a low hourly rate - it is just that people (generally) expect a kit to be built in a very short time frame. Generally not appreciating the physical number of parts in some kits and the additional work often required to prepare and fix problem parts. They also seem to think that a kit bought today will be on the bench being built tomorrow, painted and weathered in a coffee break the next day and shipped priority as if it had been waiting on the shelf. Oh, and what do you mean there are other orders in front that also take time.

 

I'd imagine that these are the same people who don't build kits themselves because they are 'too complicated' or they 'wouldn't know where to start'. 

 

[DanielB]

"Is British just another term for Cheapskate?"

 

I dunno, but I know that - as a Brit - that kind of generalisation could be considered racist, and to be honest I find the whole tone of the original post to be rather insulting.

 

I get that you want fair recompense for your hard work, but the manner in which you present yourself here, you'd never get any custom from me. I know some people do tend to take the p*ss, I've worked in both retail and customer support and I know that customers can be ignorant and rude, but that's no excuse for you to do the same.

 

You need their custom. if you want to build kits professionally. Now I'm no expert in building a successful business, mind you, but I get the feeling that insulting your target customer base isn't exactly the best way to go about it.

 

I'd suggest winding your neck in and trying again, instead of throwing up an post on an internet forum insulting an entire nation of potential customers. I offer my services to people in repairing and upgrading airsoft guns, and I rely a lot on word of mouth and social media - facebook, forums etc - to attract customers. If I were to rant off like this in a public forum I'd be seriously hurting my chances of repeat customers.

 

If you get people repeatedly balking at your prices, I would suggest that YOU need to do something about it; instead of expecting people to just accept your prices as gospel instead of thinking you are some rip-off merchant or cowboy.

 

Perhaps set yourself up with a website advertising your services and perhaps include on said website a detailed explanation of WHY your prices are what they are and what that investment would get a potential customer. People react better to "It costs this much because..." as opposed to "It costs this much."

 

Perhaps also - if you do wish to do this professionally - look at the market, the current economic climate, and what your competitors offer to do the work for. You know... market research and all that. Find out what people can afford and give them options as to what service you could provide. Better to work with your customers and offer them something you could be happy doing for the price they are willing to pay. You'd get more custom that way, no?

 

Don't expect to come into what is for all intents and purposes a business half-arsed and then get p*ssy when people refuse to pay your (as they see it) overly inflated prices.

[Jack P]

Have a look at the comments on here http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=lDDSB8r-Y7Q

I still get them now, people ask that can't be bothered to read the previous comments. I have no intention of building another one, it's MINE, I made it for ME and to make my layout different to everyone elses. No I won't make one for you and especially if you think you can pay me by postal order some months later, then when I tell you it will cost you a grand you say you don't want it now, then a year later ask me how much...

 

I ignore the questions now

Andi

 

Those comments made me chuckle.

[Craigw]

"Is British just another term for Cheapskate?"

 

I dunno, but I know that - as a Brit - that kind of generalisation could be considered racist, and to be honest I find the whole tone of the original post to be rather insulting.

 

I get that you want fair recompense for your hard work, but the manner in which you present yourself here, you'd never get any custom from me. I know some people do tend to take the p*ss, I've worked in both retail and customer support and I know that customers can be ignorant and rude, but that's no excuse for you to do the same.

 

You need their custom. if you want to build kits professionally. Now I'm no expert in building a successful business, mind you, but I get the feeling that insulting your target customer base isn't exactly the best way to go about it.

 

I'd suggest winding your neck in and trying again, instead of throwing up an post on an internet forum insulting an entire nation of potential customers. I offer my services to people in repairing and upgrading airsoft guns, and I rely a lot on word of mouth and social media - facebook, forums etc - to attract customers. If I were to rant off like this in a public forum I'd be seriously hurting my chances of repeat customers.

 

If you get people repeatedly balking at your prices, I would suggest that YOU need to do something about it; instead of expecting people to just accept your prices as gospel instead of thinking you are some rip-off merchant or cowboy.

 

Perhaps set yourself up with a website advertising your services and perhaps include on said website a detailed explanation of WHY your prices are what they are and what that investment would get a potential customer. People react better to "It costs this much because..." as opposed to "It costs this much."

 

Perhaps also - if you do wish to do this professionally - look at the market, the current economic climate, and what your competitors offer to do the work for. You know... market research and all that. Find out what people can afford and give them options as to what service you could provide. Better to work with your customers and offer them something you could be happy doing for the price they are willing to pay. You'd get more custom that way, no?

 

Don't expect to come into what is for all intents and purposes a business half-arsed and then get p*ssy when people refuse to pay your (as they see it) overly inflated prices.

 

Daniel,

 

The tone of your post suggests that you did not read the original post properly. Tor was pointing out that he was approached by people after putting up a link - he was not looking for commission work. He indicated that he would not do any such work because UK based modellers were (by and large) not prepared to pay what he considered to be a reasonable rate of return for the effort involved in building a wagon to the standard that was shown.

 

I fail to see anything in his post that indicates being "p**sy" over people not being prepared to pay what he considers would be an appropriate price for his labours.

 

I have recently seen some Rocar coaches which are on the expensive side (but worth every cent) and I would expect that a wagon which incorporates a substantial amount of scratch building in it would involve a fair amount of time and thus be rather pricey which is why you probably do not see many people building them!

 

Craig W

[chaz]

A lot of heat, but not much light.....

 

Just remember, this is a hobby. Yes, it becomes important and all-consuming to those of us who take it seriously but take a pace back. Nothing in our hobby can be considered essential. I'd love a 7mm RTR K2 mogul and at Heljan prices please. It's not going to happen. Yes, I could build it myself, that's not going to happen either. Also I could commission someone to build it for me. I wouldn't expect it at Heljan prices, that would be silly.

 

I did commission a builder to make me a very nice B1, and I didn't wrangle over the price. I did have a fair idea what I might have to pay - but this was to avoid being taken for a mug - in the event the quote was acceptable.

 

Chaz

[47137]

Over the past few years (perhaps ten years) the standard of ready to run models has improved, while the teaching of traditional engineering skills needed to build models to similar standards has diminished. In broad terms, a higher proportion of 'railway modellers' expect to buy a model and put it on the track 'as is'. The people in the 'middle market' who used to buy models off the shelf and add some details have had to find other ways to be creative, for example in layout building, static grass and better model buildings. Throughout these changes the hobby (like every other hobby) has retained its element who expect something for nothing ... but modern manufacturing means they actually get something for nearly nothing from the big manufacturers, and this has become a habit.

 

Going back to the OP, I suggest the people from overseas who ask are the people who are 'monied modellers' (who will pay) and the ones in the middle (who would save up to pay). Relatively few similar British modellers ask because the market for this class of model in the UK is relatively small. A keen British modeller will set about building their own model and not need to ask the price. Sadly this leads us to the people who want a particular model hopper wagon or whatever (simply because they want it), and display their point of view when they offer to buy one. I suspect the OP could batch build models (for commercial reasons) and get the 50 hours down quite a bit, and at say 30-35 hours he would make sales to the first two groups I described. But the third group will stay the same.

 

I have kept to 'British' here because I don't think this is a particluarly 'English' thing, except by virtue of geography and demographics, most British modellers are English. Thanks for getting through this!

[BlackRat]

I dunno about hourly rate, but it probably worked out at less than a couple of pounds per hour.

 

The thing for me is the or was the expectation that I would then do another and dedicate perhaps 30 to 50 hours of my OWN modelling time for zilch.

 

Now that's taking mates rates a bit to far.

 

The odd bit here and there is fine, but my modelling time is just that, and when it becomes a full on project for someone else........

 

And there IS a difference.

 

making the water tower for the project layout was pure pleasure and it was great to do something for the BC Boys.

 

helping friends out is a pleasure, but some folks do take the p*ss, be it modelling or expecting a lift to work every day and not offering to cover some of your exorbitant fuel costs!

[Jol Wilkinson]

I have spent over twenty years helping out a small manufacturer of 4mm etched kits at shows. Over that time I have found that those that want a kit built model but for some reason don't feel able/aren't willing to build it themselves generally fall into two categories.

 

1. Don't really understand what's involved and have little concept of build cost, but are aware of the price of RTR products, which is the only "base line" they have.
2. Do have a concept of what is involved and are willing to commission a professional builder to do it for them. All the professional builders that I know have a good relationship with their customers,  get regular commissions and have at least  a 12 month order book.

The issue here is surely the question of the difference between cost, value and worth. I have a collection of kit built models which I have made myself. I know what they cost in terms of materials, I don't put a value on them (other than what they would cost to have made professionally for insurance replacement purposes) but I know what they are worth to me.

 

If someone offered me £50 for one of the locos because they think that's the going price for a s/h 4mm engine I would feel rather insulted. A figure of £150 would show that they know the rough cost of the materials.

 

If they offered me £500 I would think that at least they appreciate it's replacement cost. I still wouldn't sell it because it's worth more than that to me because of what I have invested in it. But it's value is ultimately what, as already been said, someone will pay for it.

 

So I sympathise with the feelings of those who feel somewhat insulted when their models are undervalued by an poorly informed enquirer, and in which they have invested time, care, knowledge and expertise.

 

Jol

[Clive Mortimore]

Many years ago when I had models of diesel classes that you could not buy I use to be asked by strangers "How much for your loco?".

Answer "Not for sale".

"How much for you to build me one?"

Answer " I do not bulid for other people, I enjoy my hobby and do not want to be under the pressure of a customer's demands".

[Arthur]

A few points;

 

I think 99% of modellers would think that £500.00 is an awful lot to pay for a 4mm wagon. That's NOT to say that Dave has not put £500 worth of his time and effort into it, just that very few people would consider it 'worth' £500 to them. As has been said, there's a difference between what something costs (objective) and what it's worth (subjective).

 

Secondly, the world of custom/professional kit building is an arcane and secretive one. In thirty years in the hobby I've rarely seen any professional builder advertise their services and never seen one quote prices. So, unless you've had a quote or placed an order, you have no idea what rates and costs are like. I don't have a clue what Larry (coachman) charges to paint and line a coach nor what Norman Solomon charges to build track work. I might then, be a bit surprised if I asked.

 

Finally, Dave, I'm not clear why you are even giving a price if you've no intention of taking a commission? I build kits, purely for my own use and pleasure (BCB loco aside, same reason Black Rat quoted for his water tower build) so I wouldn't be able to give a quote as I've never costed a build. Surely it's simpler just to politely respond I don't build to commission and couldn't begin to give you a price?

[chaz]

I have spent over twenty years helping out a small manufacturer of 4mm etched kits at shows. Over that time I have found that those that want a kit built model but for some reason don't feel able/aren't willing to build it themselves generally fall into two categories.

 

1. Don't really understand what's involved and have little concept of build cost, but are aware of the price of RTR products, which is the only "base line" they have.
2. Do have a concept of what is involved and are willing to commission a professional builder to do it for them. All the professional builders that I know have a good relationship with their customers,  get regular commissions and have at least  a 12 month order book.

The issue here is surely the question of the difference between cost, value and worth. I have a collection of kit built models which I have made myself. I know what they cost in terms of materials, I don't put a value on them (other than what they would cost to have made professionally for insurance replacement purposes) but I know what they are worth to me.

 

If someone offered me £50 for one of the locos because they think that's the going price for a s/h 4mm engine I would feel rather insulted. A figure of £150 would show that they know the rough cost of the materials.

 

If they offered me £500 I would think that at least they appreciate it's replacement cost. I still wouldn't sell it because it's worth more than that to me because of what I have invested in it. But it's value is ultimately what, as already been said, someone will pay for it.

 

So I sympathise with the feelings of those who feel somewhat insulted when their models are undervalued by an poorly informed enquirer, and in which they have invested time, care, knowledge and expertise.

 

Jol

 

I agree with all that you say but your final sentence is the nub. When I take Dock Green to a show, a poorly informed enquirer could ask me if a model is for sale. The answer will be a definite no - but it can be polite. If the follow up is "Will you build me one?" The answer will be firm, "Sorry, no. I'm too busy building stuff for myself." I will not feel insulted - amused is more likely.

 

Of course it's much less likely to happen as Dock Green is 7mm - and a lot of 7mm modellers will have a good understanding of costs in both time and money.

 

Chaz

[Jol Wilkinson]

Arthur,

 

I don't think "arcane and secretive" gives the right impression.

 

Pricing a building job is dependant on a number of factors, a look here http://www.moseleycottage.com/Commissioning.html shows why.

 

Ian Rathbone used to print a price list, but now appears to have so much work that he has stopped doing that.

 

Jol

[Neil]

A gratuitous Slur ....

 

Ever happy to gratuitously slur myself. Even in exile I manage a spirited defence of the family coffers, you can take the Yorkshireman out of Yorkshire ...etc...

[Guest jonte]

 The original point though was about people expecting someone who is building models professionally and with the intent of making a living, to operate at an hourly rate which leaves them unable so to do, and which the prospective purchaser would not be prepared to accept himself? Surely that is trying to take the search for a bargain too far? Or are my ideas of morality way out of date?

 

I think the crux of the matter here, Gilbert, is whether building models for reward can ever be considered 'a profession' or even 'a proper job'. Obviously, there are some who do and I suspect that you are one of them. That's fine. We're all entitled to our opinions.

 

Unfortunately, I don't share this view and consider it more 'a second job'; something that craftsmen/tradesmen pursue on a day off for a bit of extra money, or perhaps those who have retired from their lifetime's work and are looking to fill their day by doing something they enjoy and generating an additional small income to supplement a pension. But if you can manage to get away with it and keep yourself in the manner to which you've become accustomed, then good luck to you! Just don't be surprised if there's a dearth of sympathy for those 'professionals' who take umbrage at having the cost of their work challenged.

 

Of course, there are those who will disagree quite strongly with my point of view, and teat it with the disdain they consider it deserves. Fair enough. Still it's a point of view all the same and one I suspect is shared by many, especially those who seem a little bemused at learning of the cost of 'a commission'.

 

Jonte.

[Arthur]

Arthur,

 

I don't think "arcane and secretive" gives the right impression.

 

Jol

Poor choice of words Jol, my point is essentially that whereas we all know the purchase price of an RTR model, few of us have a clue about what kit builders and painters charge simply because price lists are not published, nor even discussed. And that's just an observation, I'm not criticising the situation, no reason why any builder nor buyer should disclose their dealings.

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

"Is British just another term for Cheapskate?"

 

I dunno, but I know that - as a Brit - that kind of generalisation could be considered racist, and to be honest I find the whole tone of the original post to be rather insulting.

 

I get that you want fair recompense for your hard work, but the manner in which you present yourself here, you'd never get any custom from me. I know some people do tend to take the p*ss, I've worked in both retail and customer support and I know that customers can be ignorant and rude, but that's no excuse for you to do the same.

 

You need their custom. if you want to build kits professionally. Now I'm no expert in building a successful business, mind you, but I get the feeling that insulting your target customer base isn't exactly the best way to go about it.

 

I'd suggest winding your neck in and trying again, instead of throwing up an post on an internet forum insulting an entire nation of potential customers. I offer my services to people in repairing and upgrading airsoft guns, and I rely a lot on word of mouth and social media - facebook, forums etc - to attract customers. If I were to rant off like this in a public forum I'd be seriously hurting my chances of repeat customers.

 

If you get people repeatedly balking at your prices, I would suggest that YOU need to do something about it; instead of expecting people to just accept your prices as gospel instead of thinking you are some rip-off merchant or cowboy.

 

Perhaps set yourself up with a website advertising your services and perhaps include on said website a detailed explanation of WHY your prices are what they are and what that investment would get a potential customer. People react better to "It costs this much because..." as opposed to "It costs this much."

 

Perhaps also - if you do wish to do this professionally - look at the market, the current economic climate, and what your competitors offer to do the work for. You know... market research and all that. Find out what people can afford and give them options as to what service you could provide. Better to work with your customers and offer them something you could be happy doing for the price they are willing to pay. You'd get more custom that way, no?

 

Don't expect to come into what is for all intents and purposes a business half-arsed and then get p*ssy when people refuse to pay your (as they see it) overly inflated prices.

 

Daniel...I think that you've certainly won the prize for being the most ignorant poster on this thread. Firstly, I am British so the racism slant is a non-starter. Secondly, as at least one other poster has pointed out....I do not make models for other people, so you too would be wasting your time approaching me in the first place. Thirdly, hypothetically speaking, I am perfectly at liberty to decide on an hourly rate for which I would do work...in the same way that you are perfectly entitled to decide whether it is reasonable. Fourthly, an hourly rate of £1 is insulting and would be to most people.

 

Lastly, if you can't be bothered to read and understand my posts before making half-ar#ed replies then find someone elses thread to add your ignorance to.

 

Dave     

[Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71]

I read this topic a different way,

The poster thinks that building a wagon to the standard he does and taking 50 hours commands a value of £500, it may feel to him that anyone that undervalues that price is insulting him.

I on the otherhand think he is rating his time incorrectly, he is basing all his work on a rate of £10 per hour when some of the skills required would not warrant that fee. From a business point of view at 50 hours per build he is taking far too long to make a living as in an average working year he would only turn out 38 wagons. (48 weeks, 40 hour week)

 

I have had a couple of items profesionally built, I simply asked if the builder was interested and to give me an idea of cost and timeframe, I didn't pin them down and left it up to them, both times I was very pleased with the items and did not question the cost, they were though a lot less than the value the poster put on a wagon. £500 for a loco kit I can see for a wagon, no. 

 

I am a bit bemused in that if the poster had no intention of building for any other person why put a build value on it ? anyone given a cost of £500 for a wagon is going to question it to make sense of it.

 

I remember standing looking at a Martin Finney kit a few years ago, a chap next to me asked what the cost was and the supplier didn't answer him, the chap gave up and walked away. I looked at him and he said "if he had to ask he couldn't afford it". 

I'm getting a sense of that day with this topic.......

 

Chris,

 

This is all hypothetical because I do not build models for other people and the cost issue is most of the reason why.....having too many models to build for myself and too little time in which to do it is the other. People asking how long it took to build those wagons had no problem in accepting that 50 hours of work went into each one, as I explained the detailing and upgrading etc. Most of those who asked about them stated that they would not even attempt such kits. Any price figure was mentioned by those asking and not by me and I was simply insulted when something that wasn't for sale in the first place had a ridiculously low value placed on it mostly because the cost of then producing the rake of wagons which they would eventually want would be astronomical at £500 a go.

 

Dave     

[Jol Wilkinson]

I think the crux of the matter here, Gilbert, is whether building models for reward can ever be considered 'a profession' or even 'a proper job'. Obviously, there are some who do and I suspect that you are one of them. That's fine. We're all entitled to our opinions.

 

Unfortunately, I don't share this view and consider it more 'a second job'; something that craftsmen/tradesmen pursue on a day off for a bit of extra money, or perhaps those who have retired from their lifetime's work and are looking to fill their day by doing something they enjoy and generating an additional small income to supplement a pension. But if you can manage to get away with it and keep yourself in the manner to which you've become accustomed, then good luck to you! Just don't be surprised if there's a dearth of sympathy for those 'professionals' who take umbrage at having the cost of their work challenged.

 

Of course, there are those who will disagree quite strongly with my point of view, and teat it with the disdain they consider it deserves. Fair enough. Still it's a point of view all the same and one I suspect is shared by many, especially those who seem a little bemused at learning of the cost of 'a commission'.

 

Jonte.

Jonte,

 

I think that your comments illustrate a divide between those that are that appreciate model makers' skills and those that don't.

 

The former, where they decide to have models made, understand what is involved and are willing to pay accordingly.

 

The latter apparently want those skills supplied for next to nothing, because "it's just a hobby". They probably appreciate the end result, but not the effort that goes into creating it. Perhaps they have become used to buying increasingly superb RTR models at remarkably low prices, made by low skilled, poorly paid and educated workers in far eastern factories. So why would they want to pay someone in the UK to make a reasonable living out of producing bespoke models?

 

I know several professional model makers and I find the comment "get away with it" downright rude. Model making in the architecture and film industries is regarded as a proper professional job, so why not here?

 

Jol