Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Mornin' all, Since linking my Flickr site, with pictures/clips of heavily upgraded 51L brass ex ironstone hopper kits under construction, to my RM Web site I've had several enquiries from British and overseas modellers to see whether I would consider building some for them. I always refuse politely because 50 hours work at £10 per hour approx would equate to around £500 per wagon, plus kit and materials. Overseas modellers generally accept that it won't happen, very quickly but would still consider paying the price if I were prepared to do the job. Then comes the typical Englishman....wanting the same product but offering £50 per wagon and when I ask whether he would would work for £1 per hour, the general response is that they wouldn't get out of bed for less than £10 per hour. Is it me?? Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 No it's not. On numerous occasions I have been asked to 'fix' things, locos, rc models, engines you name it. Always expected to be done free of charge ( don't mind that) but they forget parts..........and even brushes aren't cheap! Chap down the road (minted) got me to build an O RGH Western for him, I even scratch built cabs etc. Did it for £100 from scratch, including painting and weathering. He asked me to then build a Springside pannier and I quoted £150. I was to expensive! That was several years ago, and it's still in its box. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2013 I respect the fact that some people earn their living by carrying out such tasks as kit-building, weathering or even layout construction. More earn a little extra on the side through being skilled to a high degree. There is a balance to be struck between a realistic hourly rate for what is by any standards skilled workmanship and the realistic expectations of the customer. Having recently been approached with a tentative enquiry as to what I might charge for weathering rolling stock I ran up some back-of-envelope costs. It's a significant responsibility to accept someone else's items and apply weathering processes even with a clear indication of what is required. At this stage of my own learning I actually declined the work on the grounds that I don't yet feel ready to enter into that level of responsibility. An hour on the workbench requires at least as much time again to set up and clean down. More than one session may be required. Then there is a notional element of time involved in mailing the item(s) back to their owner. There is material consumption and at least a nominal amount of power used particularly if I were to have the airbrush compressor running. My approximate costing allowing an hourly rate similar to what I earn in my paid employment (which is not what skilled tradespeople usually require) set the job above the pocket of the enquirer. The actual comment I got was that "I'd hoped you might consider mates rates". The person is not so well known to me that I would refer to him in the Australian vernacular as a "mate". It's academic anyway as I declined the work and would do so again but I wish them well in getting that sort of work done to a skilled standard for anything close to what I might have asked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Biggest mystery is , why is this in ' layout topics ', ?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cromptonnut Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 On the flip side, a friend offered to build me something "mates rates" and he said he'd have it ready for me by April. That was two April's ago, and I'm still waiting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2013 I'm always on the lookout for bargains, cheap rates etc. - a necessity because so are my employers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 Biggest mystery is , why is this in ' layout topics ', ?? ....thats easy Rob, this comes under Layout and Workbench Topics. If I were to accept such commissions then they would be built on my workbench. Also, I only work on my own layout and it was in the course of doing so that I've received the various approaches to do similar for others. Happy Easter Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 No it's not. On numerous occasions I have been asked to 'fix' things, locos, rc models, engines you name it. Always expected to be done free of charge ( don't mind that) but they forget parts..........and even brushes aren't cheap! Chap down the road (minted) got me to build an O RGH Western for him, I even scratch built cabs etc. Did it for £100 from scratch, including painting and weathering. He asked me to then build a Springside pannier and I quoted £150. I was to expensive! That was several years ago, and it's still in its box. What was your approximate hourly rate for the loco BR? Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 I'm always on the lookout for bargains, cheap rates etc. - a necessity because so are my employers. ...I trust that you're not offended by abrupt responses then Phil. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2013 Gosh, aren't you all just cheer personified?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 ....p##stakers have that effect on me! Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2013 Alas it seems to be a trait of the British - a large number of folk are not prepared to pay others a living wage for their labours or to recognise that skills cost money. Similarly many railway modellers appear to want high fidelity r-t-r at toyshop price levels (of the 1970s). But it goes beyond that - people demand cheap food but are then surprised and disgusted to find out that those cheap ready meals come with a dash of horsemeat or other less than wholesome constituents, what do they think it costs to raise cattle or grow vegetables? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I despair of the attitude that too often prevails. Some people will pay only the lowest prices but then never stop whinging about poor quality. I feel that if a smaller collection of much better models can be bought for the same money as a large collection of cheap tat, why would you choose the latter? Baffling. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2013 It certainly isn't just you! The double standards of some people are appalling. They expect to be fairly paid for the work they do as a day job, but object to paying a fair rate when asking a professional model maker to do something, on the basis that they "won't pay that kind of money for my 'obby". What do they expect these very talented people to live on? Ok, some seem to have no idea of the hours of work involved, but even when they are told it often makes no difference. Years ago I asked a local model shop to sell a professionally built and painted(by Brian Badger) Proscale A4 for me. I asked £495 for it, and that was cheap. A guy walked in to the shop. "OOh, a Falcon he said, I haven't got that one, I'll have it." The proprietor explained to him that it was a kit built loco, not Hornby. " How much is it?" When told the price the tresponse was " but you've got a Mallard next to it for £50!" I said this took place some years ago. The proprietor even went to the lengths of getting a kit down from the shelf and showing the guy what the builder had started from. Then he explained that the cost of the kit and parts alone would be over £100 before building even started. The response? " I'm going to report you to Trading Standards". I assure you that is a true story. Yes, it does seem to be a peculiarly British trait. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 An expression I heard whilst in a shop in the Middle East:- 'Madam would like a camel, but for the price of a donkey' Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I guess it depends whether you are doing it as a commercial concern, or whether you enjoy building them for the sake of it. For instance if someone said " build me a park side wagon", I'd do it mainly for the pleasure with a token payment , as I don't make a living from modelling. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 I'm not convinced it is a "British" thing. I also do not generally believe it is a matter of folk thinking of a low hourly rate - it is just that people (generally) expect a kit to be built in a very short time frame. Generally not appreciating the physical number of parts in some kits and the additional work often required to prepare and fix problem parts. They also seem to think that a kit bought today will be on the bench being built tomorrow, painted and weathered in a coffee break the next day and shipped priority as if it had been waiting on the shelf. Oh, and what do you mean there are other orders in front that also take time. I sometimes think that site like this do not help, they raise the expectation bar - in quality that is not a bad thing but not so the apparent speed building. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG John Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 In other craft businesses, there can be conflict between people who do it for a living, and those who do it as a hobby, who sell what they make very cheaply. I have a tenant who's a basket maker, and she has that problem, and also can't compete with imported baskets, even though hers are far superior. She also does basket making workshops, and when they were very cheap had plenty of takers, but when she put the price up to a reasonable level the numbers dropped off. This has a knock on effort on me, as she can't afford to pay me for use of my venue, so I can't afford to buy model railways (or her baskets)! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold martin_wynne Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 31, 2013 For most people this hobby is about making things. Those who don't make things and want someone else to make it for them generally haven't the faintest idea what is involved or how long it takes. That's not necessarily their fault -- if you can buy a DVD player with complex electronics and optics for £20, why should a model railway truck cost more? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
multiprinter Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Why on earth does it take 50 hours to build a wagon kit??? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennyboy Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Those who don't make things and want someone else to make it for them generally haven't the faintest idea what is involved or how long it takes. That's not necessarily their fault -- if you can buy a DVD player with complex electronics and optics for £20, why should a model railway truck cost more? I think that's part of the problem, as we have all been spoilt by the low cost of consumer goods made in the Far East and so people can't understand why anything should cost more than what it takes a Chinese factory to make it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Of course it may well be that the number of people who are prepared to pay (or can afford to pay) a realistic price for a hand-made model will always be small. This may mean that it's not possible to make a living out of bespoke models - and the only sensible method is mass production (or DIY). Does it matter? Difficult to see it as anything other than a very marginal problem at worst. In fact modellers who work in 4mm have never had it so good, with an abundance of good quality, mass produced, reasonably priced stuff. Providing we don't mind building kits the situation is almost as good for those of us who work in 7mm. So, we railway modellers have absolutely no reason to feel poorly served. Yup, we don't know when we are well off. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 Why on earth does it take 50 hours to build a wagon kit??? Aft'noon MP, I chose to model my ex ironstone hoppers with all of the 'bells and whistles' i.e. I replaced inferior kit parts with scratch built components (door release lever/linkage etc) and more accurate materials as required, then sourced individual axlebox/buffer combinations, etched ladders, wheelsets, couplings etc. The paintwork is all by hand...built up in very thin layers and individually weathered as per the prototypes. A number of poorly represented white metal castings were also upgraded to appear as they should. The kit as supplied builds into a passable representation of the prototype but once displayed next to the upgraded version, then no-one wanted the bog standard one. Also, no one (with the exception of Geoff Kent) wanted to know how much work and expense had gone into the upgrade. A 'blow by blow' account of the work involved appears in the Clinics section of the Finescale Fred modellers website. Cheers Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted March 31, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 31, 2013 And do you divulge all this when you're being asked by 'tightfisted' people to build a kit? Could you perhaps lower your standards to better accommodate those demands from people who would likely be delighted with your no doubt excellent skill? Or... Just say no and don't take it is a personal slur on your worth?! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Torr Giffard LSWR 1951-71 Posted March 31, 2013 Author Share Posted March 31, 2013 ....I presume that you go into Ferrari garages with Ford money and say the same to them. I don't take commissions but modellers who like what they see then ask to buy...alas often with little understanding of what they're looking at. Dave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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