Decorated samples of the ''Duke of Gloucester''

[brushman47544]

As regards the reuse of common components, I think we have to draw a line - at least for the time being - under the high spec models produced by Sanda Kan/Kader. It seems clear to me that all new models are being designed and tooled in one of Hornby's new factories, so there is no access to parts common with existing high spec models and everything is being produced from scratch. Only if/when the tooling is moved from SK/Kader to one of the new factories will the opportunity to reuse common parts become available again.

 

In the meantime, the number existing high-spec models that make it into the catalogue will continue to diminish because of a paucity of production slots allocated to Hornby production.

[coachmann]

I am glad to see an excellent picture of the Duke of Gloucester straight out of the box as it informs me as to what I will be getting. But on this thread at least, I cannot see any value in digitally altered shots with digitally adding steps and other things, as this only leads to confusion. What would be more informative is how modellers actually tackled the missing steps and other parts in real modelling terms. Upgrading is something I will do when mine arrives.

 

 

PS: As for the digitally enhanced Duke in the previous post, it is missing the AWS box on the running plate, though the protection plate is there below the bufferbeam.

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

PS: As for the digitally enhanced Duke in the previous post, it is missing the EWS box on the running plate, though the protection plate is there below the bufferbeam.

But at about a four times scale thickness going by other photos.

An essential item for replacing with a Brassmasters etched version.

Bernard

[The Stationmaster]

As regards the reuse of common components, I think we have to draw a line - at least for the time being - under the high spec models produced by Sanda Kan/Kader. It seems clear to me that all new models are being designed and tooled in one of Hornby's new factories, so there is no access to parts common with existing high spec models and everything is being produced from scratch. Only if/when the tooling is moved from SK/Kader to one of the new factories will the opportunity to reuse common parts become available again.

 

In the meantime, the number existing high-spec models that make it into the catalogue will continue to diminish because of a paucity of production slots allocated to Hornby production.

Actually Andrew it appears to be far more complex than that as Hornby's production now appears to be thoroughly balkanised with different models coming from different factories so it doesn't matter whether or not components have been moved form the Kader empire because they might be miles away from the place where model X is being made.  According to Simon Kohler - and I have no reason to query this - each model is tooled by its own particular designers etc (and down to a budget as it happens) and thus it doesn't matter where it comes from.  This means the idea of shared parts won't necessarily apply.

 

Also add in the relocation last year of a former Sanda Kan factory which seems to have upset both Hornby and Bachmann production schedules and that makes/has made things even more dfficult.

 

More importantly there seems to be little chance of this changing as Hornby's manufacturing is now in the hands of a number of producers and will presumably remain so unless the company decides to change that (which might not be a bad idea in my view - surely it is far simpler to control and organise a single point of manufacture, albeit with 'satellite' outworker shops, than a mixture of contractors all working in their own way?).

[toboldlygo]

I am glad to see an excellent picture of the Duke of Gloucester straight out of the box as it informs me as to what I will be getting. But on this thread at least, I cannot see any value in digitally altered shots with digitally adding steps and other things, as this only leads to confusion. What would be more informative is how modellers actually tackled the missing steps and other parts in real modelling terms. Upgrading is something I will do when mine arrives.

 

 

PS: As for the digitally enhanced Duke in the previous post, it is missing the EWS box on the running plate, though the protection plate is there below the bufferbeam.

 

There is value in these digitally altered shots, as it shows the potential of what can be achieved with a particular model. Think it's time to see if someone can match Rob's digital masterpieces with some real modelling

 

PS Isn't it AWS not EWS?

[Dunsignalling]

Actually Andrew it appears to be far more complex than that as Hornby's production now appears to be thoroughly balkanised with different models coming from different factories so it doesn't matter whether or not components have been moved form the Kader empire because they might be miles away from the place where model X is being made.  According to Simon Kohler - and I have no reason to query this - each model is tooled by its own particular designers etc (and down to a budget as it happens) and thus it doesn't matter where it comes from.  This means the idea of shared parts won't necessarily apply.

 

Also add in the relocation last year of a former Sanda Kan factory which seems to have upset both Hornby and Bachmann production schedules and that makes/has made things even more dfficult.

 

More importantly there seems to be little chance of this changing as Hornby's manufacturing is now in the hands of a number of producers and will presumably remain so unless the company decides to change that (which might not be a bad idea in my view - surely it is far simpler to control and organise a single point of manufacture, albeit with 'satellite' outworker shops, than a mixture of contractors all working in their own way?).

Better to spread the risk IMHO (and possibly Hornby's, too).

 

If one of four suppliers (or however many they are using now) has problems it will be a lot less disruptive than what happened when they had all their eggs in the Sanda Kan basket.

 

Another couple of years like the last two might finish them.

 

John

[7013]

Now if Hornby release a top end version like your p/s version Rob I will definitely purchase one, what a difference proper handrails and steps make, did the Duke roaring around your track cause the tremors over there mate?

[robmcg]

I am glad to see an excellent picture of the Duke of Gloucester straight out of the box as it informs me as to what I will be getting. But on this thread at least, I cannot see any value in digitally altered shots with digitally adding steps and other things, as this only leads to confusion. What would be more informative is how modellers actually tackled the missing steps and other parts in real modelling terms. Upgrading is something I will do when mine arrives.

 

 

PS: As for the digitally enhanced Duke in the previous post, it is missing the AWS box on the running plate, though the protection plate is there below the bufferbeam.

 

For what it's worth Coach, you replied to my earlier post about 'borrowing' bits from a Britannia for my pics, suggesting I borrow a return crank;  there are return cranks on both sides of the RR DoG's centre driving wheels, straight from the box, just not visible on the driver's side in that earlier photo.

 

Thank you for the reminder about the AWS box, I haven't got a fixed idea yet of when the engine is being 'modelled', there are hoses on the front for current running which I have missed out too.

 

I just enjoy the model. I would add steps, perhaps from a Britannia, more likely at some point when I can buy a detail pack.  My pictures ought not cause confusion, I usually call them 'enhanced', and add steam and smoke and any number of effects. I paint some things on using digital images of the real engine, I suppose it could be deemed confusing.

 

Here below is the engine ready for insertion into a scene with steam and smoke, later.

 

Rob

 

[robmcg]

Now if Hornby release a top end version like your p/s version Rob I will definitely purchase one, what a difference proper handrails and steps make, did the Duke roaring around your track cause the tremors over there mate?

 

Not a pleasant thing that earthquake, we are about 120kms away and the house really shook. Power stayed on for us, but not thousands of others,   one never knows during an earthquake whether you are in the middle of an average one or near , or distant from a much larger one.  Nobody hurt, anywhere, houses and buildings are built well, and trains are running, infrastructure has little damage, some bridges still being checked. We were in the Christchurch one in 2/2011 which was truly horrible with a horizontal G-force approaching 2.

 

As to my 'versions' of engines, I hope I make it clear when a pic is 'out of the box' or 'fiddled', as I have generally thought my 'enhancements' as being self-evident, primarily because of much-narrower wheel profiles, steam or smoke, usually all three.

 

Of course it's not modelling as such, but I'm not very good at fiddly stuff. I was drawn back to model railways buy an impulse purchase of a Coronation in 2004, and was so impressed when I photographed it with a newish digital camera, it was fun...

 

In the last pic., in the reply to Coachmann, I added sanders, straightened the Caprotti valve gear a bit, moved the pressure valve on the cylinder front, enhanced shadows all over the place, and made the whistle more like the real version.

 

All such mods would be viable for a modeller; sanders, thinner deflectors, steps, hoses, and so on, not sure about scale wheels though.

[robmcg]

Actually I have to say that the RR Duke would come right with parts similar to Brit or Clan models; better deflectors with stays and handrails, sanders, steps, hoses, front cylinder detail fixed, weathering on moulded pipes,   and separate smokebox handles and hand-grabs if possible. 

 

Of course the extra pickups and better bearings of a Brit/Clan would have been nice too.

 

Now to think of a good scene in which to place the photo I put up two messages ago...

[coachmann]

I simply wasn't aware that the Railroad Duke came with return cranks fitted. They just weren't visible I suppose. Anyway that's one less job to do. I've not got around to rounding up etched smoke deflectors, handrail knobs, buffers, engraved plates and wheels as yet. Then there's that tender to attend to.

 

I just cannot see the value in the upmarket Duke.......I mean what has it got over the Railroad model? Separate handrails on the deflectors yes, but look at the thickness of the plastic and those numpty circles on the backs securing the knobs. May as well start with the el-cheapo, spend the bucks on detailing parts and end up with a far better model than Hornby's full-creamo for the same outlay.

[robmcg]

yes, this is, or was the RR version...

 

The camera does not lie.    Well...  maybe some days a crew could get steam out of 'her'...

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

I just cannot see the value in the upmarket Duke.......I mean what has it got over the Railroad model? Separate handrails on the deflectors yes, but look at the thickness of the plastic and those numpty circles on the backs securing the knobs. May as well start with the el-cheapo, spend the bucks on detailing parts and end up with a far better model than Hornby's full-creamo for the same outlay.

But you can do the lining Larry. Many will find that to be the stumbling block.

Which is part of the reason I regard both versions as poor value for money when viewed against the Brit and the Clan at projected 2014 prices.

Bernard

[coachmann]

But you can do the lining Larry. Many will find that to be the stumbling block.

Which is part of the reason I regard both versions as poor value for money when viewed against the Brit and the Clan at projected 2014 prices.

Bernard

Must admit I had overlooked this. The lining would have to be modified at the new cut out in the Tender top. I can only agree with your sentiments re. comparisons with the Brit.

[90733]

Could be worse, Hornby could have not bothered prdocuing DoG and then people would have to kit build....

[coachmann]

Okay Cy Linderlocks, what exactly do you dissagree with?  Lets go through my entry step by step...

 

Must admit I had overlooked this. How can you dissagree with this?

The lining would have to be modified at the new cut out in the Tender top. How can you dissagree with this when it is patently true?

I can only agree with your sentiments re. comparisons with the Brit. Do you dissagree that I can only agree?

 

   
 

[Bernard Lamb]

I suppose to some extent it depends on what value you put on your time.

There are people who know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

Now disagree with that.

Bernard

[Cy Lindercocks]

Okay Cy Linderlocks, what exactly do you dissagree with?  Lets go through my entry step by step...

 

Must admit I had overlooked this. How can you dissagree with this?

The lining would have to be modified at the new cut out in the Tender top. How can you dissagree with this when it is patently true?

I can only agree with your sentiments re. comparisons with the Brit. Do you dissagree that I can only agree?

 

   

 

 

 

I was not aware that one had to justify ones own opinion, nor can I see anything in the forum rules that says if you disagree with a comment you have to justify it. If you wish to disagree with me feel free, I am big enough to accept other persons have different opinions to me without it spoiling my life or ranting on about it. Life would be terribly boring if we all had exactly the same opinion all the time.

 

What I can see, as a new member who has been browsing, threads is that you and Bernard |Lamb love to try to bully other members who do not agree with you.

 

Like Robmgc I am very happy with my DoG. Mine is the special edition model. It is far better than I could have made, my modelling skills being nowhere as high as yours perhaps. I also cannot see any great difference between the moulded pipework on DoG and the other Hornby Standard Pacifics. With regard to your comments about the Cylinder ends this compromise is because in OO the gauge / scale combination is not exact. 

 

What I cannot understand is why the forum administrator edited some quite innocuous comments from another poster yet you seem to be allowed to harass and abuse at will. 

 

In the short time I have been a member I have rapidly come to the conclusion that your character seems to be somewhat overbearing and should anyone have the temerity to disagree with you you try to bully them. Most playground bullies grow up when they leave school.

[Mod3]

Handbags away please gentlemen

[robmcg]

For all the shortcomings of the RR and main range Duke I think it says a lot about the way Hornby are dealing with the loss of Sanda Kan, and are now using several independent suppliers and manufacturers, so far as I can tell, and the detail parts which were available for the Brits and Clans are either no longer available, or are too expensive to shift around and fit, even if included in a detail pack.

 

Shame, actually.  Now if I had a Brit to cannibalise...

[robmcg]

If Hornby REALLY got its act together, for we full-detail RTR 00 types, a detail pack with steps, hoses, sanders, separate-handrail etched or plastic deflectors without the over-large bosses, and AWS bash-plate and battery box, how much would that cost?

 

Or a generic detail pack for Standard locos...

 

I suppose one can search Ebay or similar for bits and pieces.

 

And who decided that the cost of making a Duke to a standard comparable to a Clan was too high?  An accountant?

[S.A.C Martin]

If Hornby REALLY got its act together, for we full-detail RTR 00 types, a detail pack with steps, hoses, sanders, separate-handrail etched or plastic deflectors without the over-large bosses, and AWS bash-plate and battery box, how much would that cost?

 

Well, just look at Hornby's catalogue. What model would you like? The Thompson O1's pricing is not far away from the main range DoG, nor is the B17 really. You can get a Brit or a Clan for £140ish and they are entirely comparable to the £120ish DoG main range model.

 

There's a level of sticking one's head in the sand that really doesn't wash with me. Hornby have previously been able to provide models at certain price points to certain specifications. The DoG is built down to a price and the price charged is what they believe the market will stand, like any other model. Problem is, many modellers are very discerning and will question the engineering behind the model and the price being charged for it.

 

I happen to like the DoG body shell and it has a lot of potential for improvement from its Railroad origins, but a spade is a spade. The chassis is not as well engineered as previous models and is being sold at comparable prices. You can argue all you like about "if Hornby didn't offer or make this" and that, but the fact of the matter is that one manufacturer picking one prototype normally means another doesn't. In this day and age, where in other industries it is all about choice and quality, I feel the model railway world (and in particular its consumers) is selling itself short and settling rather than being like other industries and demanding better for their money.

 

Whilst we all want Hornby to do well, it is not the consumer's fault that the major suppliers to Hornby in their model railway market have let them down. Don't feel guilty for wanting to be discerning and careful with your money. If a product isn't up to the standards you personally set, that's your decision and one else's. In this case, DoG gets onto my modelling workbench, but it needs a lot of work to be acceptable to me on a layout. Different standards set and the decision to actually do some modelling (though I emphasise it's not about telling someone else to do some modelling. I wouldn't be doing this if the Duke wasn't a personal favourite. Certainly wouldn't be doing this on a Star or Heavy Tank).

 

 

Or a generic detail pack for Standard locos...

 

I suppose one can search Ebay or similar for bits and pieces.

 

And who decided that the cost of making a Duke to a standard comparable to a Clan was too high?  An accountant?

 

 

Who really knows? Only Hornby do and they are not telling. I find the idea that different factories in China are unable to utilise tooling a bit far fetched given the number of different factories that must have manufactured the perennial Hornby main range A4 Pacifics and similar over the last decade. If nothing is made at Sanda Kan anymore that must lead us to conclude a good number of the annual models (A3s, A4s, certain Railroad models and carriage/wagon toolings) must be being made elsewhere.

 

That being the case, being able to share tooling and components between models is possible. Why it is not so is for reasons other than where the models are made.

 

Personally speaking, although I would be happy to excuse Hornby all ills given the excellence of their recent ex-LNER models, secretly I am worried that the K1 and D16/3 in particular (two locomotive types of which I am pre-ordering) will illustrate all the issues I can see appearing in their Black Motor model prototype - which has many positives but quite a few negatives when you consider the materials and design on show.

 

I'm taking delivery of a Bachmann J11 this week and I wonder what contrast there will be to the two models which have cost me similar amounts (£70-80 for DoG at the excellent Invicta Model Rail Shop in Sidcup and £80 at Hattons for the J11).

[robmcg]

I don't want to argue the pricing of the development of the B17 and 01 , even if it is comparable to a main range Duke, I don't know enough about the circumstances facing the company. edit; I will say that there has been a lot of cost inflation since the B17 and 01 were designed and put into production. 

 

I do like the bones of the Duke, especially the RR being quite cheap, thus I'd like to be able to detail it.  I won't comment on the bearings and other aspects of the design until I know more, either.

 

 

[robmcg]

 

 

I'm taking delivery of a Bachmann J11 this week and I wonder what contrast there will be to the two models which have cost me similar amounts (£70-80 for DoG at the excellent Invicta Model Rail Shop in Sidcup and £80 at Hattons for the J11).

 

I don't think a 4-6-2 and a 0-6-0 are strictly comparable.  Number of parts?  Number of manufacturing processes? Size?

 

In my opinion the DoG is good value.  If it was fully up to a Clan model standard I doubt there would be much change out of £160.

[S.A.C Martin]

I don't think a 4-6-2 and a 0-6-0 are strictly comparable.  Number of parts?  Number of manufacturing processes? Size?

 

In my opinion the DoG is good value.  If it was fully up to a Clan model standard I doubt there would be much change out of £160.

 

And yet they are available at similar prices. The 0-6-0 will certainly exhibit some "design clever" like features (brake gear, half moulded smokebox door dart) - but which is better quality for money?

 

At the end of the day you pays your money…but being objective rather than subjective will result in one conclusive answer regarding manufacturing costs, design and price at retail.