Decorated samples of the ''Duke of Gloucester''

[JaymzHatstand]

Value for money is very much a matter of personal opinion, I paid under £100 for the special edition model, and will happily admit that there are a few bits for me to tweak on it, but I consider it to be very good value. Yes I may have to spend time and a few extra quid on it, but that is one of the best bits (for me) about the hobby, taking something out of the box and making it my own, I'm thoroughly looking forward to it, and by the time I'm done, it should still have been cheaper than buying and building a kit version. I'm aware there are some issues that I won't be able to tweak, the smokebox overhang being one, but those I can live with.

 

My only concern, as many have voiced already are the bearing-less wheels, so I'm looking forward (maybe) to seeing how well the loco performs in the long term. For me, it'll be a while before it gets properly run-in, but for now it's fine shuffling up and down my three yards of track with the support coach project in tow!

 

Cheers

 

J

[Dunsignalling]

What Hornby have done with the Duke of Gloucester model is the logical outcome of various pressures upon them.

 

1. Manufacturing changes in China substantially increased their costs and the Olympic Tat fiasco severely damaged their profits.

 

2. Criticism of earlier price rises led Hornby to conclude that their previous specifications were no longer financially sustainable if they were to deal successfully with the above factors.

 

3. They came up with the 'one-model-two-standards' idea to address this. This inevitably translates as one chassis with a choice of a trainset level body and a "dressed-up" version of the same basic moulding. I saw that coming, didn't anyone else? 

 

Conclusions:

 

A. Unless and until Hornby judge that the market will embrace models of large locomotives made to their previous standards at the sort of prices they will need to charge for it to be worth their while (as of now that means getting on for the £170 of the GG A4s) we are going to have to get used to this and the P2 will be JUST THE SAME. 

 

B. Nobody has bleated much about the proposed price levels of the smaller locos they have announced this year despite them breaking the £100 mark even if ordered through the major discounters.

 

C. If they find that what are (in most respects) much simpler models sell well at almost the same price as the higher-spec version of the DoG, maybe Hornby's traditional emphasis on "Big, Green and Named" will be a good deal less pronounced in future. 

 

John

[JaymzHatstand]

I've had a bit of a play this morning and made a start on painting the wheel rims, as I mentioned a while ago these are one of the most striking aspects of the real loco, and on the model I felt that they didn't look right as thin tyres on black wheels. A quick coat of Tamiya XF-56 Metallic Grey and the wheels take on a whole new, and (to me at least) more prototypical appearance. It only took about 10 minutes to do one side of the loco with a good thin brush and it certainly makes a big difference!

 

 

My next tweaks will be around the front end, if the deflectors come off without issue!

 

Cheers

 

J

[toboldlygo]

 

3. They came up with the 'one-model-two-standards' idea to address this. This inevitably translates as one chassis with a choice of a trainset level body and a "dressed-up" version of the same basic moulding. I saw that coming, didn't anyone else? 

 

 

Yes I did when Hornby released Tornado a few years ago and had both a RR and main Range Version. From re-reading the Tornado thread no one seemed to complain about the molded smoke box dart, deflector hand rails and lack of glazing. The only gripes that came up time and time again, where to do with plastic buffers!!

[The Stationmaster]

And yet they are available at similar prices. The 0-6-0 will certainly exhibit some "design clever" like features (brake gear, half moulded smokebox door dart) - but which is better quality for money?

 

At the end of the day you pays your money…but being objective rather than subjective will result in one conclusive answer regarding manufacturing costs, design and price at retail.

Hardly objective I think to compare deep discounted price of one with slightly discounted price of another - yet again a demonstration of how deep discounting has distorted the market.  The only really valid comparison is the manufacturer's recommended prices (admittedly now becoming rather difficult with Hornby, so possibly yet more distortion) as they represent what the 'manufacturer' thinks is the retail market value of its models.

 

I think a very different picture in respect of price comparisons is going to emerge this year as deep discounting of Hornby products at last bites the dust and is consigned to history and the company will have to put its pricing money where its mouth is (and modellers will have no option but to pay the higher prices if they wish to buy Hornby products).

[7013]

Very logical argument by Dunsignalling, when comparing large locos we generally compare between Hornby and Bachmann

Of recent comparisons the Bachmann Tornado appears to have been received very well despite the tender axle boxes being wrong ( I think). The Hornby version too was well received but aknowledged as not being as high quality as the Bachmann loco, thus the Bachmann version was more expensive. People will make their choice on what they feel represents the best value for money. Of course direct comparison is now going to be difficult between the two manufacturers as manufacturing techniques are now different in terms of chassis design bearings vs non bearings, and level of detail on the body moulded vs added. In the past Bachmann have generally enjoyed an advantage of being a little cheaper on like for like models (4mt and B1), however this could change with Hornby taking the cheaper route and Bachmann continuing with their quality products.

[bigherb]

 Bachmann continuing with their quality products.

Are they though? The C class with moulded handrails, no tender pick ups, moulded tender brake shoes on the frames, along with other recent releases,

 

J11 with half a moulded smoke box dart handle, see also the Class 40 thread for cost cutting.

[7013]

I concede Bigherb that Bachmann is not completely free of its glitches

The C class does indeed have moulded hand rails by the cab etc. but I would say its overall quality is far and above anything Hornby have released recently, my opinion only. My point is that comparison will be difficult if both manufacturers continue their divergent paths,

[G-BOAF]

Yes I did when Hornby released Tornado a few years ago and had both a RR and main Range Version. From re-reading the Tornado thread no one seemed to complain about the molded smoke box dart, deflector hand rails and lack of glazing. The only gripes that came up time and time again, where to do with plastic buffers!!

Not a fair comparison. Tornado has a direct alternative with Bachmann's 'full fat' model (albeit with a few compromises). 71000 does not, and Hornby's efforts will doubtless preclude anyone else from using their known capabilities to do a better job.

 

Are they though? The C class with moulded handrails, no tender pick ups, moulded tender brake shoes on the frames, along with other recent releases,

 

J11 with half a moulded smoke box dart handle, see also the Class 40 thread for cost cutting.

 

Yes the C class tender pickup absence is disappointing as are the brake shoes, but 'moulded handrails' OK, technically they are, but the handrails in question are effectively recessed on two sices, and more importantly, are easy for the modeller to fix without a full repaint. This is NOT comparable to 71000 which would requrie a complete repaint to rectify Hornby's production shortcuts.

 

G-BOAF (off to read the Class-40 thread...)

[toboldlygo]

Not a fair comparison. Tornado has a direct alternative with Bachmann's 'full fat' model (albeit with a few compromises). 71000 does not, and Hornby's efforts will doubtless preclude anyone else from using their known capabilities to do a better 

 

Did I at any point in my post mention Bachmann? No

 

I was just pointing out the facts that Hornby's Tornado was the first Railroad and main range loco that they did. You've twisted it into Bachmann versus Hornby.. when it wasn't!!!

[robmcg]

...

 

. In the past Bachmann have generally enjoyed an advantage of being a little cheaper on like for like models (4mt and B1), however this could change with Hornby taking the cheaper route and Bachmann continuing with their quality products.

 

With the B1 in particular it is Hornby who continues with the quality product, at perhaps slightly higher prices.  But the trend you suggest is apparent with the DoG and P2, or would be except Bachmann aren't listing many new large models, the H2 Atlantic might be $150 ? 

 

There is more to it than two manufacturers with identical aims, looks to me as if Hornby want to retain the toy and large green named 'end' and Bachmann UK the more specialist modeller.  Hornby were doing some models better than Bachmann in my opinion, for some time, Brit, Clan, B1, O1, West Country, you name it, even their venerable Merchant Navy was the equal of the Bachmann A1, or better,  and my pro-Hornby stance is partly my enjoyment of the name over the years, partly that they have bought rights to a few of my pictures,  and partly because I think they are great models,  even with the current production restraints, at the price. 

[robmcg]

Ah, but why scratch-build when even today you can buy Hornby models of this quality for, as in this case, £120.00

 

the problem is, that Hornby are maybe not sustaining models like this for low prices...?

 

Detailing a DoG to this standard wouldn't cost a huge amount, unless you wanted 12-wheel pickups?

 

 

and here is a starting-point....  for £66 + VAT

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Bernard Lamb]

 

 

the problem is, that Hornby are maybe not sustaining models like this for low prices...?

 

 

The problem is, that Hornby maybe not sustaining models like this at any price.

Bernard

[robmcg]

in the meantime ,  I'll add steps and hoses.... and cylinder drains,  handrails and etched plates to come (well, at least my versions)

 

 

 

[JSpencer]

Very logical argument by Dunsignalling, when comparing large locos we generally compare between Hornby and Bachmann

Of recent comparisons the Bachmann Tornado appears to have been received very well despite the tender axle boxes being wrong ( I think). The Hornby version too was well received but aknowledged as not being as high quality as the Bachmann loco, thus the Bachmann version was more expensive. People will make their choice on what they feel represents the best value for money. Of course direct comparison is now going to be difficult between the two manufacturers as manufacturing techniques are now different in terms of chassis design bearings vs non bearings, and level of detail on the body moulded vs added. In the past Bachmann have generally enjoyed an advantage of being a little cheaper on like for like models (4mt and B1), however this could change with Hornby taking the cheaper route and Bachmann continuing with their quality products.

Shape wise Hornby,s tornado represents the prototype more accurately, the Bachmann model (original release at least) being pretty much any other A1 peppercorn with new tender body tooling.

Of course the Bachmann one has separate fitting.

 

Personally, I think it is easy to start with a correct shape and detail up than a detailed model and correct the shape. The Hornby one is cheaper too, so Hornby certainly picked the right strategy here.

 

I reserve judgement on value for money for the Duke to as soon as I get it.

[S.A.C Martin]

Hardly objective I think to compare deep discounted price of one with slightly discounted price of another - yet again a demonstration of how deep discounting has distorted the market.  The only really valid comparison is the manufacturer's recommended prices (admittedly now becoming rather difficult with Hornby, so possibly yet more distortion) as they represent what the 'manufacturer' thinks is the retail market value of its models.

 

I think a very different picture in respect of price comparisons is going to emerge this year as deep discounting of Hornby products at last bites the dust and is consigned to history and the company will have to put its pricing money where its mouth is (and modellers will have no option but to pay the higher prices if they wish to buy Hornby products).

 

Sorry Mike - what deep discounting is this?

 

Bachmann's main range J11 model - details as follows:

 

J11: £89.95

 

Source here: Bachmann.com

 

Hornby's Duke of Gloucester - details as follows:

 

 

Railroad Range RRP: £82.99

Main Range RRP: £119.99

 

Source here: Hornby.com

 

So not much discounting on the Railroad 71000 model I bought or on the J11? I'd say they are entirely comparable in terms both their RRP and their actual retail price.

 

What then is comparable in terms of their specifications?

 

The J11 like 71000 doesn't have pickups on the tender (as far as I am aware) but it does have a 21 pin decoder and brass bearings in the chassis.

 

Excellent (and complete) livery application on the J11 (a simple livery of course) whereas the Railroad model's livery is incomplete and missing many details. The main range model is by far superior in this aspect. 

 

Both models have cab glazing.

 

The door dart on the J11 is half moulded, compared with 71000's all moulded set.

 

The brake hangers on the tender are moulded as part of the frames, compared with the separately fitted ones on 71000's tender. However the coal section is removable unlike the one piece body moulding of 71000's, and the J11's tender has sprung buffers compared with 71000's moulded plastic set.

 

Both models feature moulded handrails on the tender and arguably it is far to say that the J11's are better in this regard.

 

The cab and the boiler back head are exquisitely detailed and painted on the J11 whereas on both Railroad and main range 71000s the cab remains unpainted. 

 

The J11 locomotive has separately fitted lamp irons, sprung buffers and a front coupling whereas both 71000 models have moulded lamp irons (which to my eyes are convincing though others are free to disagree) and two levels of extras to fit including steps on the main range one along with AWS plate and piping which isn't present on the Railroad model.

 

Obviously one has had to be engineering further in terms of the chassis because it has outside valve gear. 71000's plastic caprotti gear looks very convincing but I wonder if it will stand up to everyday use. Time will tell.

 

Both models have been engineered and made to very different specifications yet the lower end 71000 has a price point comparable with the J11. Is 71000 value for money if we take into account the engineering of its chassis and lower overall spec to the similarly priced J11?

 

I'm talking purely about the material costs and engineering here. One model is clearly superior to the other on a number of levels. Yes one's a Pacific with outside valve gear and the other is an inside cylinder 0-6-0 but the prices are comparable and their design clearly isn't.

 

Are we seriously saying we're both paying too much for the 71000 model which has a comparable RRP with a model with a better specification?

 

It is not heresy to ask if you are getting your money's worth. I don't believe 71000 is value for money in this context. It is the only game in town however and that puts buyers in the position of like it or lump it and also re-model it if you want a decent model of 71000 that is not kit built.

 

Please don't get me wrong - I like the model. I'm not going to be oblivious to its flaws or that it has competition in a very crowded market where wallets are being squeezed and many modellers, collectors and alike are being more careful with their purchases (no longer a case of buy everything on a whim but being incredibly selective as the prices are going up).

[robmcg]

......

 

Are we seriously saying we're both paying too much for the 71000 model which has a comparable RRP with a model with a better specification?

 

It is not heresy to ask if you are getting your money's worth. I don't believe 71000 is value for money in this context. It is the only game in town however and that puts buyers in the position of like it or lump it and also re-model it if you want a decent model of 71000 that is not kit built.

 

Please don't get me wrong - I like the model. I'm not going to be oblivious to its flaws or that it has competition in a very crowded market where wallets are being squeezed and many modellers, collectors and alike are being more careful with their purchases (no longer a case of buy everything on a whim but being incredibly selective as the prices are going up).

 

I think the Duke is value for money, myself...  the last model I bought from Bachmann was a D11/2 at £106 but it didn't go so had to be returned to Hattons, from NZ..   The replacement was fine.

 

Each to his own.

 

Here is a further stage in using my DoG all £66 of it, for an attractive pic...

 

[darren01]

I've had a bit of a play this morning and made a start on painting the wheel rims, as I mentioned a while ago these are one of the most striking aspects of the real loco, and on the model I felt that they didn't look right as thin tyres on black wheels. A quick coat of Tamiya XF-56 Metallic Grey and the wheels take on a whole new, and (to me at least) more prototypical appearance. It only took about 10 minutes to do one side of the loco with a good thin brush and it certainly makes a big difference!

 

IMG_20140122_092740.jpg

 

My next tweaks will be around the front end, if the deflectors come off without issue!

 

Cheers

 

J

Hi 

Can you tell me why around the cab front it looks grey  in the photo ?.

Darren

[robmcg]

Um, it's rather greyish green... ?

 

Anyway here is another view. Colours are a bit darker. BR condition, not much coal left in tender... 

 

 

[JaymzHatstand]

Hi

Can you tell me why around the cab front it looks grey in the photo ?.

Darren

I can indeed, it's the reflection of the flash of my phone camera, not the best shot really, but it was only intended to show the wheel rim mod, I can assure you the cab front is the same colour as the rest of the body!

 

Hope this helps!

 

Cheers

 

J

[Dunsignalling]

With the B1 in particular it is Hornby who continues with the quality product, at perhaps slightly higher prices.  But the trend you suggest is apparent with the DoG and P2, or would be except Bachmann aren't listing many new large models, the H2 Atlantic might be $150 ? 

 

There is more to it than two manufacturers with identical aims, looks to me as if Hornby want to retain the toy and large green named 'end' and Bachmann UK the more specialist modeller.  Hornby were doing some models better than Bachmann in my opinion, for some time, Brit, Clan, B1, O1, West Country, you name it, even their venerable Merchant Navy was the equal of the Bachmann A1, or better,  and my pro-Hornby stance is partly my enjoyment of the name over the years, partly that they have bought rights to a few of my pictures,  and partly because I think they are great models,  even with the current production restraints, at the price. 

Given that the r.r.p of Bachmann's LMS Compound is £130+, I'd say that's a pretty good guess. 

 

Incidentally, despite Hornby discarding the idea of an r.r.p, the nearest we can get to one (their own on-line price) positions their forthcoming D16 on £110 compared to Bachmann's D11 with an r.r.p of £125. It will be interesting to see how the execution compares when we get to see them side-by-side.

 

From a personal point of view, I would have much preferred Hornby to persist with the likes of the rebuilt WC, King Arthur etc (those two are, IMHO, the best things they've ever produced; have you 'done' any King Arthurs, Rob?). I would certainly have carried on buying locos at £150+, though I would have had to be a bit more selective!

 

One thing that does worry me a little is ALL Hornby's 2014 newbies being smaller locos; I do hope there's no bandwagon-jumping going on! 

 

John

[toboldlygo]

 

From a personal point of view, I would have much preferred Hornby to persist with the likes of the rebuilt WC, King Arthur etc (those two are, IMHO, the best things they've ever produced; have you 'done' any King Arthurs, Rob?). I would certainly have carried on buying locos at £150+, though I would have had to be a bit more selective!

 

 

Couldn't agree more, there are a couple of Rebuilt West Country's to come I believe (delayed from 2013) and Rob has photographed a few King Arthurs

 

I do see it as frankly quite odd the DoG is being compared to smaller classes of Loco by Bachmann (Duke Dog, J11) and not to their Pacific's which are of similar size and wheel arrangement. 

[The Stationmaster]

Sorry Mike - what deep discounting is this?

 

 

DoG for £60 was quoted earlier in this thread (which is an export price with VAT deducted) but even before that it was a bit under £70.  Plus I was also talking in wider terms about the presence and impact of deep discounting although we are now seeing its end on Hornby models.

 

Overall the matter of pricing is something of a secretive area (hardly surprising of course) and I suspect in many cases - particularly of a single loco - it bears not too much relationship to the cost ex-factory but is far more closely related to what the UK 'manufacturers' think the market will bear in relation to what they are offering.  Obviously it costs more to make a larger loco with outside connecting rods than it does a smaller inside cylinder loco but use of far more moulded detail will have pushed down production costs considerably allowing the UK 'manufacturer' to be able to offer a lower price but at an increased gross margin.

 

Overall I honestly think that the 'standard' version offers little more for a lot more money - £37 is a lot to pay for separate handrails on the smoke deflectors and slightly better livery in my view and Coachmann has hit the nail on the head by going for the 'basic' version as something to work from because of what he will be replacing on it.  At the 'standard' price DoG is comparable price wise with a number of smaller locos from Bachmann of course and much cheaper than many of Bachmann's large locos - it is then a matter of deciding if you are getting value for what you have to pay and that will inevitably be a subjective opinion, which will also be coloured by deciding whether or not the engine is one you want.

 

Meanwhile Hornby it seems have decided to follow a different course for 2014 by offering some smaller engines such as the 700 and J15 at, reportedly thus far, what is around the current RRP for such engines. The interesting things then will be to see how these models measure up against other people offering similar size engines at about that price point such as the J11 and rather more expensive Kernow O2.

[Accurascale Fran]

I picked up a Clan yesterday (my 1st) at a reduced price which was lower than my full fat Duke and put them side by side. The Clan is by far the nicer model but the Duke holds up well when it comes to the bemoaned moulded pipe detail. It just isn't as nice or as crisp as the Clan. The Buffers do sick on my craw mind you. They look terrible in my eyes.

 

However, it's not the moulded detail that bothers me so much about the Duke; it's the chassis set-up. It's just such a massive step backwards; pitiful amount of pick-ups, the one piece motion and poor bearing system. It's just not good enough in my eyes and I feel that my Clan will run better and will be still going long after the Duke dies. I don't mind doing a bit of detail work on a cheaper model if needed, but having to totally redo a chassis on a brand new model is like a big leap back to the Ringfield era Hornby rubbish that left them at that time little alternative but to make big leaps in running quality at the turn of the millennium.

 

People have been saying "oh but a top of the line Duke would've cost £160, would you pay that?" The answer here is yes. I would certainly pay that for a Duke to the same standard (at least, but in my view as we go into the future things should get even better, not stand still or actually get worse like it has here) as a Brit/Clan. The Duke is a favourite engine of mine and I was willing to give Hornby the benefit of the doubt and buy one. A bit of a mistake by me.

 

Sadly I think this model reinforces a stereotype that British people are a bit 'tight' (I know that's not true for the most part, but it has been a long-standing stereotype held internationally) and it's a stereotype that held British outline back for many years as we recall poor cheap engineered British outline models from Hornby and Lima while European and US outline modellers enjoyed wonderful models. Remember when it was predicted that the market would not sustain a Heljan 47? Thank christ it did! It was a game changer that has lead us to the wonderful models we have seen over the past 10-12 years.

 

It looks like this tight vocal minority has got Hornby's ear. I know plenty on here would've paid top dollar for top quality. Sadly the more expensive model doesn't deliver. If this is the road Hornby will continue to go down then they shall no longer get custom from me concerning their new releases. I will be hoovering up their golden period locos (Brits, Clans, A4s etc) while I can still get them for fear these will change too and looking to Barwell and kit building.

 

This has been an O.G from Hornby for me. Still, at least my Clan is here to remind me that Hornby were once getting things absolutely spot on. I hope those days will return.

[Horsetan]

....Sadly I think this model reinforces a stereotype that British people are a bit 'tight' (I know that's not true for the most part....

It is if you read the moans in various places on this Forum, each time a new model is announced or (finally) released.

 

 

 

....that the market would not sustain a Heljan 47? Thank christ it did! It was a game changer ...

So was the Hornby Rebuilt "Merchant Navy".

 

 

 

... I know plenty on here would've paid top dollar for top quality....

....balanced by a large number who wouldn't.