RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 5, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2013 The only reference that I have for the D1806 Cement Hopper is in Volume 1 of LMS Wagons. Essery has a works photograph, a drawing and some brief remarks. The wagons were constructed in 1932 by the Metropolitan Carriage, Wagon and Finance Company but there is no information concerning the quantity built. I would be interested in a source for any more photographs, especially in service, details of their usage and how long they lasted. Incidentally, the official drawing is notated as them having double brake but the official photo has them with four-shoe Morton but no vacuum fittings, an unusual arrangement in itself. Thanks in advance for any help. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcaravanner Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 Don't know much about this wagon is it this one ??? http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/gansg/4-rstock/lmslihop.jpg I have pictures of the larger LMS Grain hoppers at the Midland Railway centre but looking carefully not sure if they are of help but if you think they may be I can forward one on to you Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 5, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2013 Thanks, Gray but the D1806 wagon is definitely not the one in the illustration which I don't recognise. It's not in LMS Wagons and it looks like some sort of ad hoc ore hop conversion. D1806 was built for cement and as far as I can determine was the only such design built for the LMS. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 5, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2013 I should add that, by the time of the build date in 1932, the company had already become Metropolitan Cammel. The archive for the company is held at Birmingham Central Library but the archive section (amongst others) is closed until September due to a pending move to a new building. The archive may be of help to determine the number that were built but I'm still interested to locate any photographs of the wagons in service, how long they lasted in traffic and if they worked in relation to a specific cement works. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madcaravanner Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 OK you got me intrigued now I would like to know what this one looked like even though I doubt if I will model it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 From what I can gather reading some Railway Executive Committee papers at the PRO at Kew there were only 5 of them and are built to the same design as Stanton Cement/Lime hoppers. The one illustrated in Essery V1 is number 299894 and the official poto of the first 20t Coke is numbered 299900 so if I am correct the number series is 94 to 99 . Here is a copy of their Stanton PO ones! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 5, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2013 Thanks for that interesting information, Mark. If the number series is 894 to 899 that would mean 6 wagons! The brake situation seems to be no clearer as the Stanton wagon has the double-sided independant brake which was supposed to be fitted to the LMS wagons although 299894 clearly has a Morton type brake gear. It's not possible to tell from the photo in Essery whether the other side of the brake gear has a straight lever with a conventional Morton clutch or the drop-link style usually associated with 12' underframes. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I have a 4mm. scale model of D1806, built from a a rather basic etched kit; the manufacturer of which escapes me now. At the time that I built it, many years ago, I obtained a copy of the 1 inch to 1 foot drawing; from Bob Essery, I believe. The drawing clearly shows a lifting link, with the brake handle pivoted on a second, smaller V-hanger. Regards, John Isherwood. EDIT - a quick Google revealed that it was a Jidenco kit - now under Falcon Brass ownership; (but, according to their web-site, not necessarily currently available). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 5, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 5, 2013 Thanks for the drawing, John, that really is very useful and certainly helps to answer the question about the brake gear. Way back in the late 1980s the late David Lidgate had some of the Jidenco Kits reduced to 2mm scale with the intention of making them commercially available. He had some for sale at a 2mm Expo at Market Harborough around that time with, I think, the intention of 'testing the water'. However, it seems that he decided that it was pretty much a non-starter as they were deemed to be even more difficult in 2mm scale than in 4mm. I bought a selection at the time and they have been in my gloat box ever since. Since David's death the remaining stock has surfaced and a number of 2FS members, including myself, have, for good or ill, bought some more. There has been some discussion raised over on the workbench section of the 2mm specialist area. The cement hopper has always intrigued me since seeing it in the Essery volume. It now transpires that, with five kits, I may have a good proportion of the fleet! The kits are from the early days of etching and can best be described as scratch aids but are no less intriguing. I feel it unlikely that the D1806 vehicles, as non-standard, would have made it as far as my modelling year of 1967 but with the lack of information concerning their age and usage it may be that I could run them anyway! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted April 5, 2013 Share Posted April 5, 2013 I feel it unlikely that the D1806 vehicles, as non-standard, would have made it as far as my modelling year of 1967 but with the lack of information concerning their age and usage it may be that I could run them anyway! David " On Midland Lines", page 64, has a photo of one; (albeit in the background); in BR days. David Larkin's wagon data sheets also record them as surviving into BR days. Go for it - I have! Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 9, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 9, 2013 " On Midland Lines", page 64, has a photo of one; (albeit in the background); in BR days. David Larkin's wagon data sheets also record them as surviving into BR days. Go for it - I have! Regards, John Isherwood. Thanks for the useful references for these wagons, John. Don't suppose you do any transfers for them, do you? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted April 9, 2013 Share Posted April 9, 2013 Don't suppose you do any transfers for them, do you?'Fraid not - I made up the kit before I started producing transfers. Sorry, John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 29, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 29, 2013 " On Midland Lines", page 64, has a photo of one; (albeit in the background); in BR days. David Larkin's wagon data sheets also record them as surviving into BR days. Go for it - I have! Regards, John Isherwood. I've managed to track down the 'On Midland Lines' reference, John. I've also acquired a scan of a Stanton wagon from Volume 10 of Keith Turton's P.O. wagons book. The brake gear in this photograph shows the standard 12' drop-link brake gear that accords with the drawing that you posted and also the photo in Essery. This is in contradiction to the independant brake gear on the photo that Mark Saunders put up in post #6 which is all a bit puzzling! I'm in the process of working out how to replace the Jidenco underframe with rather more 21st century items from the 2mm Association etches. I also supect that Archer transfers may be the way to go to represent the rivets as bashing them out in 2mm scale is rarely successful. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted April 29, 2013 Share Posted April 29, 2013 The brake gear in this photograph shows the standard 12' drop-link brake gear that accords with the drawing that you posted and also the photo in Essery. This is in contradiction to the independant brake gear on the photo that Mark Saunders put up in post #6 which is all a bit puzzling! David I'm not certain that the two are *exactly* the same design. Look at the end angles and bracing plates - the angles are bent and the plates wider on the LMS version. I suspect that the overall length (and WB?) of the LMS wagon is greater than that of the Stanton wagon in Mark's photo. Regards, John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 I'm not certain that the two are *exactly* the same design. Look at the end angles and bracing plates - the angles are bent and the plates wider on the LMS version. I suspect that the overall length (and WB?) of the LMS wagon is greater than that of the Stanton wagon in Mark's photo. Regards, John. The design for Stanton evolved from the original one and would have to go into the Registration books to check what it says about length. I would suspect that it was more the body evolved so it had a steeper angle at the end rather than the chassis; other than the type of brake fitted untill the last Stantons were built post war! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 30, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2013 The design for Stanton evolved from the original one and would have to go into the Registration books to check what it says about length. I would suspect that it was more the body evolved so it had a steeper angle at the end rather than the chassis; other than the type of brake fitted untill the last Stantons were built post war! Mark Saunders I agree, Mark, that the two designs are similar but not identical whereas the LMS hoppers, dating from 1932, are identical to the later Stanton batch. To quote from the Turton volume: "In 1941, Metro-Cammell delivered five 20-ton covered cement hoppers of a design very similar to those built by that company for the LMS. These were numbered 10322 to 10326 and registered by the LMS 158401 to 158406" As the photos in Turton will be covered by someone's copyright I won't reproduce them here but there is a large photo of 10325 which I assume is from the Metro-Cammell archive as it is credited to Birmingham Central Library. It is a works photo but, intriguingly given the supposed build-date, is lettered Stanton Gate LMR and Ilkeston ER. This lettering is in the position of E.V.R. in Mark's photo otherwise the lettering is identical. It is possible, of course, that the lettering was applied post-nationalisation at a works visit. The photograph below, by Peter Fidczuk, shows 10330 on what may be part of Stanton's site. The Stanton lettering and numbering are in the same positions but the annotation to Stanton Gate now reads 'MJ2', the meaning of which, the author describes as unknown. This photo would be at least in the 1960s as there is an overhead warning flash positioned above the 'O' in IRONW (the W has migrated to the left in this batch!). Next to it is visible about two thirds of an identical design of wagon but this has no lettering visible at all. Given the general rarity of PO wagons, other than tank wagons, in the first twenty years or so of British Railways, these Stanton wagons are certainly unusual. However, if one was to letter the LMS vehicles for BR days I think that an educated guess may be the only possibility for the positioning and type of such lettering. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 This is one of the postwar Stanton ones! Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted April 30, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted April 30, 2013 This is one of the postwar Stanton ones! Stanton Cement copy.jpg Mark Saunders That's the photo in the Turton book, Mark. Is the 1941 build date suspect? David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted April 30, 2013 Share Posted April 30, 2013 That's the photo in the Turton book, Mark. Is the 1941 build date suspect? David The branding suggests post nationalisation with LMR and ER rather than LMS & LNER. Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted May 1, 2013 Share Posted May 1, 2013 Have found the dimensions for Stanton 10325, Length over headstocks 19' 9" and 12' wheelbase, built 1946. Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted May 1, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 1, 2013 Have found the dimensions for Stanton 10325, Length over headstocks 19' 9" and 12' wheelbase, built 1946. Mark Saunders Mark, Those dimensions are in accord with those of the LMS wagon. The 1946 date still doesn't explain the the reference to LMR and ER. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Enterprisingwestern Posted June 3, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 3, 2013 There is a new book out, "Railway Tales. Ilkeston and district in the age of steam", no ISBN number as it is produced by the the local history society. Within, there is an upper top threequarter view of 10334 and 10336 taken at Stanton works in the 1960's, also creeping into the shot is one of the vertical end framed hoppers. Mike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium DavidLong Posted June 4, 2013 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted June 4, 2013 There is a new book out, "Railway Tales. Ilkeston and district in the age of steam", no ISBN number as it is produced by the the local history society. Within, there is an upper top threequarter view of 10334 and 10336 taken at Stanton works in the 1960's, also creeping into the shot is one of the vertical end framed hoppers. Mike. Thanks, Mike. Sounds like an interesting volume. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cctransuk Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 See http://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/PRE-TOPS-DIESEL-LOCOMOTIVES/17606961_2sF27N#!i=2614469812&k=Qc4BhSj&lb=1&s=A At least two of this type were still running in 1966. Regards, John Isherwood. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted August 28, 2013 Share Posted August 28, 2013 See http://transportsofdelight.smugmug.com/RAILWAYS/BRITISH-DIESEL-AND-ELECTRIC/PRE-TOPS-DIESEL-LOCOMOTIVES/17606961_2sF27N#!i=2614469812&k=Qc4BhSj&lb=1&s=A At least two of this type were still running in 1966. Regards, John Isherwood. The "Presflo" next to it makes me wonder if they are in Cement traffic? Mark Saunders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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