Can you use insulfrog points with DCC

[Earl Bathurst]

I have never used insulfrog frog with dcc. But I have a code 100 insulfrog 3 way point but want to know can I use this with dcc. I'm thinking as long as I feed to both sides of the point then there shouldn't be any problems, am I correct in saying that? Also do I need any switching because of it being insulating frog?

 

Any help will be great

Scott

[Oldddudders]

Insulfrog points are entirely compatible with DC or DCC, but have the undoubted disadvantage of the dead bit where no current flows, and short-wheelbase locos may stall. Since your three-way is probably going into a low-speed area of the layout, be it station or yard, that weakness may be important.

[Earl Bathurst]

The 2 way point is going into the fiddle yard. I don't use short wheelbase locos so shouldn't be a problem. ill just put electric feeds to both sides of the point which should limit the dead section.

 

Scott

[shanks522]

Nearly all my points on my DCC layout are insulfrog, I use a 3 way point in my fiddle yard and my Hornby 08 creeps over without stalling. 

 

Graham.

[Phil S]

When you say 'Insulfrog' ®, I assume you mean Peco dead-frog point (Insulfrog is I believe their registered trade mark).

The biggest problem really lies with diamond Crossings for which there may be no associated point movement to provide a linked polarity switch.

 

With dead-frog points, there is 'theoretically' simply wiring - and depending on the make, the point may or may not switch the power to the selected route - eg Fleishmann Profi-Track® 'thinking'® points: These have always been supplied with point-clips attached which distribute power to all routes at all times, but are removeable (and harder to put back!).  When Hornby went DCC, they introduced the equivalent point clips as an extra, to provide constant power routing.

 

However, all is not equal amongst dead-frog point manufacturers - and some make larger dead frogs than others .... 'compensating'/ relying, in some cases by ensuring that their  locos have always had all-wheel power pickups - something which Hornby only recently 'discovered' with Chinese manufacture.

 

The approach taken by Peco, was to produce a visually minimalist dead frog - which is fine for fine scale wheels, but on which the most common UK loco wheelsets (ie Hornby) would always short-across because of their steam-roller profile and width: Amazingly, some current Hornby production still uses them !!

 

[Peco's presumption is that only the toe is powered, and the other routes are dead- which MAY have been the case in 'analogue', but not always, and is not the normal scenario when wiring for dcc .... therefore Peco Insulfrog points needed to be installed with the same insulating fishplates as their Electrofrog points.

 

In the early days of 'digital command control', Airfix recommended painting the Insufrog® area of a Peco point with varnish, to insulate them - and this works well until trackcleaning wears the coating away. - the alternative being to wire as Peco said above, and rely on their point-blade power switching - which is not always a good idea.

 

So the solution depends on your loco wheel profiles, and that of any metal-wheeled rolling stock you may have:  The 'airfix method' can be applied easily and repeatedly to cope with the problem, or it can be designed-out by choice of point manufacturer or the use of insulating frogs as per Peco's instructions.

 

[My most recent Hornby Steramroller-wheel purchase was the FGW Class 142 railbus, with 3 'finescale' wheelsets and 1 steamroller-powered axle 8-( .. it resurrected the problem on my Rocoline layout, when I realised it was crossing over my 1 remaining Peco 24 degree Diamond Corssing 8-(   (Roco use sufficiently large frog to be fit-for-purpose (ie insulating) and make 15 and 30 degree corssings ... where's that varnish?..]

[Suzie]

I would not recommend using it, but if you have no choice just wire it as a live frog with insulated joiners and paint the frog area with conducting paint.

 

If a live frog is available, sell your dead one on Ebay and save any potential agro.

[Stevelewis]

Insulfrog Points can be  used  without  any problems   with digital  systems.  I have   used  them  since  i started in digital  last  century  without  any real issues.

 

The only problems  that may occasionally occur is with 0-4-0 locos with a short wheelbase  but as there are none of those on the layouots i am involved  with so the issue doesnt  arise.

 

If it is  required for the  track  beyond the points to remain live when the point is NOT set for a particular  track ( ie to maintain lights or  sound)  then it is a simple  task to   fit (solder) a jumper cable to the track in question,  even  simpler  is to  fit 'point clips' which  maintain a continuous power feed to both legs of the point irrespective of the point's setting, Hornby supply these ref R8232 in packs of 20, most retailers  stock them. These clips can be used  with 3 way points also.

 

Just  for  the  record  I am involved  with  building a  Roundy Roundy layout  in a 12' x 8' shed at  the  moment,  The  track work is  all Peco code 100 all the points  are  insulfrog  and include all 3 Radii,  along  with a 3 way  and  2  double slips.,  most of the  track is  laid  and  we  have been  testing  for a few  days now,

 

Locos  that  have  run on the layout  so far  include Wainwright C1,  Farish 4mt, Jinty, 9f, WD,  A1 , A2,   Classes 37,47 ,20,, From Bachmann.

From Hornby  Q1, Black 5, M7 & Britannia,

 

The  track plan is  basically a double track oval with a  station area with 2 Loops and various  sidings and a branch to a high level terminus.

There is NO digital Bus Bar, we never have  used  them  and currently  the layout has but 3 feeds from the  digital central  station

[Earl Bathurst]

Thanks everyone for the info. I am only using the dead frog points in the fiddle yard so shouldn't cause many problems, if there is there wont be any scenery to damage to rectify the problem if it occurs because they will be in the fiddle yard.

 

Thanks scott

[kevinlms]

Insulfrog Points can be  used  without  any problems   with digital  systems.  I have   used  them  since  i started in digital  last  century  without  any real issues.

 

The only problems  that may occasionally occur is with 0-4-0 locos with a short wheelbase  but as there are none of those on the layouots i am involved  with so the issue doesnt  arise.

 

If it is  required for the  track  beyond the points to remain live when the point is NOT set for a particular  track ( ie to maintain lights or  sound)  then it is a simple  task to   fit (solder) a jumper cable to the track in question,  even  simpler  is to  fit 'point clips' which  maintain a continuous power feed to both legs of the point irrespective of the point's setting, Hornby supply these ref R8232 in packs of 20, most retailers  stock them. These clips can be used  with 3 way points also.

 

Just  for  the  record  I am involved  with  building a  Roundy Roundy layout  in a 12' x 8' shed at  the  moment,  The  track work is  all Peco code 100 all the points  are  insulfrog  and include all 3 Radii,  along  with a 3 way  and  2  double slips.,  most of the  track is  laid  and  we  have been  testing  for a few  days now,

 

Locos  that  have  run on the layout  so far  include Wainwright C1,  Farish 4mt, Jinty, 9f, WD,  A1 , A2,   Classes 37,47 ,20,, From Bachmann.

From Hornby  Q1, Black 5, M7 & Britannia,

 

The  track plan is  basically a double track oval with a  station area with 2 Loops and various  sidings and a branch to a high level terminus.

There is NO digital Bus Bar, we never have  used  them  and currently  the layout has but 3 feeds from the  digital central  station

 

Yes, works well when new, but once a bit of dirt gets on the blades etc, then...

[Sunnysa]

83 out of 85 points on my DCC layout are peco insulfrog with jump wire soldered from ouside stock rail to solid part of blade rail, does the same as Hornby clips.

 

 I paint aprox 2mm clear or silver nail polish on rails where they meet a the frog.

 

  Nail polish is very hard and withstands a lot of cleaning.

 

 The 2 points not insulfrog are electrofrog which I am going to dead frog with my trusty Dremel and a fine cutting disc.

 

Cheers

 

  Ian

[Suzie]

It is April the first again.

 

... The 2 points not insulfrog are electrofrog which I am going to dead frog with my trusty Dremel and a fine cutting disc...

[Butler Henderson]

Certainly can confirm the problem with Hornby wheels exists, my T9 in particular shorted out on a dead frog and the resolution was to bond the frog rails together.

 

Anyone any tips on using an insullfrog double slip?

[Grovenor]

and the resolution was to bond the frog rails together.

So you fixed a temporary short by putting on a permanent short? I think not so you must have done something else as well, why not give the complete solution?

Regards

Keith

[Removed a/c]

All mine are insulfrog, no issues with my DCC layout. Been set up running for about 18 months now. Most of my locos are 37s, 47s etc...Just have one 08 and that is fine as well. 

[Sunnysa]

It is April the first again.

 

No Suzie, it is not April 1st

 

 I do not like Peco electrofrog points, to much unnecessary faffing about to isolate the frog and add micro switch to power rout the frog.

 

 The micro switch is just something else to go wrong. Heaven knows there is enough on MR layout to go wrong without adding more that is unnecessary for me.

 

 I don't like relying on the blades to carry tje current so I dead frog the electrofrog and add the jump wires the same as insulfrog.

 

 I have a friend that has dead frog'd  electrofrogs and has 0-6-0 paniers that go thru at shunt speed.

 

 I model USA, Do not have or run 0-4-0s or 0-6-0s and all my locos including steam have all wheel (including tender) pickup.

 

 All my locos go thru dead frogs at shunt speed.

 

 When installing Peco points make sure the centre is tacked down flat because they often have a slight bow upwards causing locos to rock front to back causing loss of wheel contact with track. This is specially important if op locos with multi wheel arrangement and not all wheel pickup.

 

 MY way is not the only way, I just sometimes give simple alternatives that can/will work.

 

 To each their own and what works for them.

 

 After 37yrs in MR I am still learning.

 

 Cheers

 

Ian

[Butler Henderson]

So you fixed a temporary short by putting on a permanent short? I think not so you must have done something else as well, why not give the complete solution?

Regards

Keith

Not a complete short at all, the frog rails only link to one or other of the running rails depending on the way the point is set as per any live frog point and the only extra work needed is an isolating break beyond the point again as with a live frog point.

[irishthump]

Hi guys,

 

My layout has all insulfrog points (approx 20 of them), both Hornby and Peco. 0-6-0 locos can stall at slow speed but these are both from the Hornby mixed goods set and the problem seems to be compounded by the rigid wheel bases.

 

I don't use the Hornby clips and instead wire jumpers from stock rail to switch rail. I also wire each point's stock rails directly to bus so as not to rely on rail joiners and of course all sidings

have their own connection to the bus.

 

All my other locos have all wheel pick-up and present no problems at all (most of them are sound fitted) . I find cleanliness is the main factor towards good running and any intermittant performance is resolved by cleaning track/wheels/pickups.