ZTC 611 UPDATED CONTROLLER!

[pauliebanger]

Until the 611, you could only get 8 functions on the 511 and 505. That was clearly inadequate when there were more and more sound projects that used functions between 9 and 16, and ZTC was rightly, IMHO, criticised at the time for not increasing the number of functions that could be controlled. Once you included control of individual lights on a sound decoder, F0-F8 was not enough. 

 

If a sound project developer has used all 28 functions for lights, sounds, switching to shunting mode, operating fans, pantographs or smoke units ,etc, etc, and you have a decoder with that project installed in a loco then you need a controller that can take advantage of those features, which the 611 can now do, and Taunton deserve credit for bringing the 5/611 up to date in that respect. Lighting controls will be used, but I do question how many of the sounds that are manually operated are actually used by a lot of DCC modellers.

 

What is actually needed is a way to make a decoder play a certain sound automatically when the loco is on a particular place on the layout, such as flange squeal on a particularly sharp curve, or the sound of buffering up when that is what the loco is doing. That might need Railcom, which, AFAIK, is not included in the 611 spec.

 

Does anyone know if the 611 includes the hardware for Railcom and if so will it just need a firmware update to enable it?

 

Rubbish.

 

This simple trick does not need RailCom. Are you deliberately trying to find things that ECoS can do to suggest ZTC is below par?

 

Most of my projects already have sounds - flange squeal is popular - which can be initiated by cheap external triggers (magnets), and those which don't can be altered easily by the end user to do so.

 

As for your comments on screen size, it's clear that you fear ZTC might trump the almighty ECoS in this area so you choose to belittle the larger screen size in advance of knowing anything of it's capabilities.

 

I'm with Mike, plenty of usable screen 'real estate' with all functions in view at once. In fact, all 29 functions are displayed by 'Engine Driver' app on a 4.5 inch smart 'phone screen. On the basis of your  'it's not the size but what you do with it' does that suggest my cheap smart phone is more accomplished thatn the ECoS?

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

Its interesting that only a couple of years ago ZTC was criticised for having control of only a few functions. Now the 611 can control 28 functions and we are having a discussion about whether we really need/use them

 

And the chief critic was? Really, the same person? How could that be? Surely that would be hypocritical, wouldn't it?

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Oldddudders]

pauliebanger, on 07 Dec 2015 - 11:29, said:

And the chief critic was? Really, the same person? How could that be? Surely that would be hypocritical, wouldn't it?

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

A classic case of "be careful what you wish for"?

[pauliebanger]

Mike,

 

 

 

Unrealistic, possibly, as I suspect that most people couldn't remember what all 28 sounds did if they had a decoder with that many sounds, or remember to use them at appropriate times even if their controllers allowed them instant access. It's a bit like all singing, all dancing technology, too many controls becomes information overload for many of us and most of them get ignored.

 

 

Keith,

 

My word, your intimate knowledge of the modelling population is astounding. Where's your evidence for these proclamations?

 

If I provide 28 different sounds in a sound project, the user can choose to use as many or as few as they wish. If I limit the number, that's all the user can access.

 

In my limited experience, ie the large number of emails I receive with positive feed back on my projects, I know that the greater majority of ZIMO users prefer the choice.

 

My wife and my daughter have identical washing machines, each has 14 different wash programs. My wife uses 2 of them on a regular basis, occassionally a third. My daughter uses 5 different wash programs on a regular basis, only 1 of which is in the selection that my wife uses.

 

So, should the washing machine manufacturer reduce the number of programs?and to what level? And to which of them?

 

Your argument is clearly based upon the fact that you are unable or can't be bothered to use more or remember more so why should anyone else get the chance? That's the politics of envy, and I'll never give way to people with views like that.

 

I'll continue to provide what people ask for, and if some functions or sounds are ignored by some people, so be it.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[Oldddudders]

pauliebanger, on 07 Dec 2015 - 12:00, said:

 

 

I'll continue to provide what people ask for, and if some functions or sounds are ignored by some people, so be it.

 

 

And that is no different from the whole DCC concept, which has near-infinite capabilities, many of which are ignored by most of us. Or even the average shop-bought PC, which arrives with a ton of software you never use.

 

Offering more will generally make a product more attractive than offering less.

[pauliebanger]

 

 

Because of the lack of standardisation of what sound goes where and the access to higher numbered functions and lack of labelling problems on non-GUI based controllers, I personally don't think there's much of an incentive for sound file developers to use all 28 functions as most of them won't get used anyway. I know of one sound project that includes birdsong. Birdsong? Yes birdsong, probably provided to use up one of the sound slots to make buyers think they're getting more for their money.

 

 

 

Keith,

 

Ever wondered how many people give a fig about what you 'personally' think? 

 

My view is straightforward and comprehensible to all, if there are 29 Fkeys, why not use them?

 

Real locomotives share the space they occupy with all sort of environmental sounds, yes, even including birdsong. In fact, if you knew anything at all about recording for DCC sound you would know that these sounds are prototypical. I normally have to make special provision to exclude them from the recordings of the 'core' sounds.

 

If someone requests a typical environmental sound to be added to a sound project to make extra use of otherwise untapped povision on their expensive DCC sound decoder, who am I to refuse them?. More to the point, who are you to judge?

 

Just because you lack the knowledge or understanding of other peoples requirements does not give you the right to censor the contents of someone else's work.

 

Your snide comment reveals more about your lack of empathy with other's needs  intolerence than you might have wished for.

 

Or is it that you have again, deliberately created a problem which doesn't really exist in order to bolster your fragile argument?

 

You rant 'Probably provided to use up one of the sound slots (sic) to make buyers think they are getting more for their money'.

 

It just demonstrates that you just don't have enough imagination to 'get it'.

 

They are getting more for their money, that's the point. More bangs per buck, more choice. Including the choice to go elsewhere if they wish.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

Edited December 7, 2015 by pauliebanger

[pauliebanger]

 

 

It will take the developers longer to create the 28 sounds project which may put up the cost/resale price at a time when there is increasing competition from budget priced sound decoders. So they'll put the ones that they think will be most popular/most used on the lowest numbered buttons and those least likely to be used on the higher numbered functions, and probably leave the highest numbers unused. Why bother to use all 28 function buttons to provide something that will seldom be used, unless you put it there to try to gain competitive advantage over rivals, e.g ."Sound project ABC for Class 9876 on decoder brand A has 28 functions whereas sound project CBA for the same loco on decoder brand B only has 20 different sounds". Does that make ABC better than CBA, or just appear to be better? It's immaterial which is better if both are undercut by sound project DEF for the loco only has 12 sounds but costs half the price.

 

Keith,

 

You further demonstrate that you do not have the first idea about sound project creation.  

 

It takes a lot of time to get the core parts of the sound project working correctly, even after the hours spent selecting the sound from several hours worth of recordings. The appropriate 'engine' sounds, the transitions between those sounds and the degree of control the user has over the way the sounds are played is the key to a successful project.

 

That's where all the effort is expended.

 

In contrast, it takes a few moments to add a 'spot' or 'user' sound. Certainly not enough to add any cost to projects.

 

Of course, the most useful/used/necessary features are normally put on the single digit F keys. That's for the convenience of most and the requirement of those using something like the EZDCC controller which is not capable of accessing higher functions.

 

I would generally then put important but not essential features in the next range, F10-F19. I do that for the convenience of users of older ECoS models, ESU Navigator and ESU designed Dynamis  which are all unable to reach higher F keys in the 20s.

 

Oh, I just noticed a patern;, ESU designs seem to be a bit short in this area. Some might speculate that's why you would prefer to move the spotlight away from the use of all 29 F Keys. But seeing the evidence of your totaly unbiased views, that would be scurrilous, wouldn't it?

 

This last convoluted suggestion needs a bit more analysis

 

''It's immaterial which is better if both are undercut by sound project DEF for the loco only has 12 sounds but costs half the price''.

 

Immaterial to whom?

 

Which 12 sounds?

 

So half the price is the overiding factor? No mention of the quality of the other aspects of the decoder, how good the motor control, how convenient to change operating characteristics by CV and so on. Indeed, no mention about how well the sounds work as a whole or the quality of individual sounds.

 

On this basis I can advise Mike in his dilema. Buy a PowerCab; it can perform every important function that you will require and costs less than a quarter of the price of an ECoS.

 

Granted, ECoS can operate two locos under simultaneous control which the PowerCab cannot. Never mind, purchase a second PowerCab or the cheaper ProCab hand set, plug them both in and that will solve that issue. You will still have saved over half the cost of an ECoS, and you will be albe to walk about with your controllers without needing any more expensive kit. 

 

ECoS is a very good central station, there's no denying that.

 

But this thread is about the ZTC controller, which has always had a superb and immersive 'driver' interface let down previously by poor software and lack of upto date features. Now that this seems to be undergoing a process of correction and upgrading there is probably a strong future for ZTC and I wish them well.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

[pauliebanger]

There's something spooky going on here. ESU are quietly trying to take over the site!

 

I deliberately typed ECoS with a capital E and lower case c, o and s. When my post was published, 'mysterious forces' changed every instance to ECoS. See, it happened again.

 

Anyone else noticed this?

 

If this is being done by the site software, could we have the same autocorrect for the name ZIMO, which is an acronym and should therefore always be written in upper case.? 

 

And for ztc on the same basis, please? I mean ZTC.

 

Kind regards,

 

Paul

Edited December 7, 2015 by pauliebanger

[Mike Storey]

For clarity and to help lower the testosterone and cholesterol, I will not be buying an eCo$. I will wait a while longer and see what zTc manages to put out there. I thank you.

Edited December 7, 2015 by Mike Storey

[two tone green]

Ok Mike. Once you have what you want let us know. I am sure somebody on here will post news about things as they happen.

 

I will speak with Graham at the O gauge Bristol show at the end of January. He was at the Reading show last weekend but I did not get chance to speak to him.

[Dagworth]

Incredible to see a trader attacking a member of the model buying public on a model railway forum.... If I wasn't already convinced that sound is not for me I now know that I would NEVER buy anything from Pauliebanger, what a rude and arrogant individual

 

Andi

[traction]

Back to the ZTC 611!

 

I've posted my review, link below:-

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/106867-dcc-controller-list-basic-review-by-owners/?p=2160279

 

It's not all singing and dancing by any means of the imagination, that would take too long to go through every function and operation it can do.

I've commented on things that have impressed ME and things I like.

It isn't a comparison between this and anything before,( I didn't own any of the old models) it's solely on the 611 which is how it should be!

New company new controller.

 

After doing the review, I think I could have made more of the function control as it is really good, you can tell someone who uses functions must of had input into it as they are so easy to use and customise for latching and non latching.

The best function control I've used on all my controllers, with a bigger display to show all of the functions that are on/off would make it perfect, but we will have to wait for the alleged display and to be honest it's not too difficult to remember, I need a bit of paper to remind me what's on each function anyway!

 

I hope other owners/users will also do reviews so it's not just me.

I'm the only one who's posted any reviews so far, we need more reviews of the same controllers I've done and different controllers to give a broader opinion.

 

Anyway thought I'd post here to let people know I've done one.

 

 

For some very good news, latest on the Taunton Controls web site:-

 

12/1/2016. At last we have been able to put in an order for 611 controllers and 611 motherboards to the factory. We estimate  delivery will be the end of Feb and will contact everyone once we have a confirmed date. Thank you all for your patience.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited January 13, 2016 by traction

[Mike Storey]

Ian

 

A very useful review - many thanks. If I had the spare dosh, I would go for the 611, but I could not justify c£600 (including a remote) right now! Perhaps one day.....

[two tone green]

I mentioned above I would speak with Graham at the Bristol show and due to being busy all day I did not have chance to.

 

But, and this is not confirmed by Graham or anyone at ZTC, so may be one of you in touch with him as a user can confirm, that they are offering over a hundred pounds, £150 was quoted to me twice, for your old 511 as a trade in In effect cash for your old 511 controller.

 

I had five people tell me the same bit of news. If they know each other I have no idea. But worth finding out about.

 

I think Ian is a regular communicator with Graham so if you find out if this is true do let us know.

 

As I said, unconfirmed.

[peter220950]

I mentioned above I would speak with Graham at the Bristol show and due to being busy all day I did not have chance to.

 

But, and this is not confirmed by Graham or anyone at ZTC, so may be one of you in touch with him as a user can confirm, that they are offering over a hundred pounds, £150 was quoted to me twice, for your old 511 as a trade in In effect cash for your old 511 controller.

 

I had five people tell me the same bit of news. If they know each other I have no idea. But worth finding out about.

 

I think Ian is a regular communicator with Graham so if you find out if this is true do let us know.

 

As I said, unconfirmed.

 

Surely this is the 505/511 upgrade he advertises on the site currently, ( or is it out of date?)

 

£470 for new controller

£235 for upgrade of existing

 

http://tauntoncontrolsltd.co.uk/product/505-511-upgrade-611-spec/

 

Peter

[two tone green]

No, this is cash for any one wanting to sell their old 511 and not upgrade.

[Oldddudders]

Ian

 

A very useful review - many thanks. If I had the spare dosh, I would go for the 611, but I could not justify c£600 (including a remote) right now! Perhaps one day.....

That is indeed a large lump of dosh to expend at once. But I will not be the first to point out that the DCC system is central to your whole railway, and will be used every time you run a train. If ZTC - or whatever - is the system that will give you maximum pleasure in daily use, then its price of, say, 5 locomotives, seems easier to justify.

 

But you do need to be convinced that this is indeed the best of the best.

[ColinK]

No, this is cash for any one wanting to sell their old 511 and not upgrade.

Thanks for the info. That's quite tempting and I could do with the cash at the moment.

[traction]

Apparently they do buy 505's and 511's

I have no idea to the ins and outs of it though and frankly it doesn't effect me.

For anybody wanting to find that out I would contact Taunton Controls direct and ask.

 

I guess it would be on an individual basis and they would look at the condition of the controller before offering any money, that's what I would do if it were me.

 

Cheers

 

Ian

Edited February 2, 2016 by traction

[two tone green]

Thanks Ian for confirming this. Also good advice.

[two tone green]

I have a 511, 620 hand controller and a ZTC transformer for sale if anyone interested. All in working condition of course. Make me an offer and it all could be yours.

[two tone green]

Its a 622 hand controller I have and not a 620

[queensquare]

Its a 622 hand controller I have and not a 620

I'd be interested in the 622' will PM you.

 

Jerry

[Mike Storey]

That is indeed a large lump of dosh to expend at once. But I will not be the first to point out that the DCC system is central to your whole railway, and will be used every time you run a train. If ZTC - or whatever - is the system that will give you maximum pleasure in daily use, then its price of, say, 5 locomotives, seems easier to justify.

 

But you do need to be convinced that this is indeed the best of the best.

 

Very, very true Ian, but as I have just forked out for five new locos.......!! I am going with the new ACE at 142 sovs for now. But, when Taunton finally get production and instructions and bugs sorted, and perhaps have brought the new screen into play (which will make it more expensive I know, but much easier to use for sound locos, I hope), I will contact my rich Auntie Gertie. Oh, er, no she died some time ago. Next year then. 

[two tone green]

Could well be longer than that if you are waiting on the big screen debut