Colour of Lighting in Coaches

[super8man]

Looking to install lighting in my coaches. These vary from LMS, LNER, GWR, Southern, to DMU's and intercity types mk3 & 4.

 

Would my thinking be correct  that the led's for the modern ones should be more white to represent florescent lighting and the old ones like dmu's more of a warm white due to old incandescent bulbs used.

 

Many Thanks

 

David

[Gruffalo]

Pre-nationalisation stock listed there, what period are you covering? If old, gas was still used I think. Perhaps others can advise when these were replaced with electricity from duynamos?

[Edwin_m]

Older types would certainly have had bulbs and as Gruffalo points out even older ones would have had gas. 

 

The refurbishment programme for DMUs in the 70s included fitting fluorescent lighting so anything in the blue/white livery or blue/grey will probably have fluorescent but anything in all-blue probably won't.  Some of the later built Mk1 open seconds were fitted from new with fluorescent ceiling lighting, and other types probably were too. 

[Pacific231G]

It all comes down to colour temperature.

incandescent gas lighting has a colour temperature of less than 2900K

tungsten lighting (light bulbs) ranges from 2700-3300K

white flourescent tubes are equivalent to about 5000K

overcast daylight is about 6500K

On that basis gas and tungsten lighting should be about the same and I remember tungsten lighting on trains always seeming a bit yellower than the lights at home,  possibly the bulbs were a bit derated to make them last longer or possibly the fittings were just dirty.

I've just found this on Ebay.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Model-Railway-LED-Lighting-Lights-Lamps-Very-Low-Temperature-OO-Gauge-12V-DC-/120981029196

No idea if they're any good but they do offer various colours including white, warm white and amber.

I'm thinking I might get a couple of them to illuminate the cafe de la gare and the gare itself since I spent ages modelling interiors for them that can't be seen.

 

 

 

This is quite a good example of the colour of gaslight with the snow giving a good white balance reference

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Photo/_new/121221-gaslamp1.photoblog600.jpg

Apparently Berlin, where this was shot, still has thousands of gaslamps and there are huge controversies about the plan to replace them with more efficient electric lighting though LED lighting has been developed that closely matches the wam glow of the gas lamps.

http://www.braun-lighting.com/index.php?page=29&modaction=detail&modid=71&PHPSESSID=544c96e59625c0d25072b6040bdd1b60

 

Warm white seems to be the chosen colour and should be good for both gas and tungsten while white would perhaps be best for  flourescents.

I've no idea how well standardised LED colours are.

[flapland]

Although slightly off topic there are also lots of gas lamps around the Houses of Parliament and the Abbey especially the back streets. Glow whiter than you expect as they use a mantle.

[MJI]

Bulbs were pretty yellow and fitted to corridor Mk1s

 

Most open Mk1s also bulb. Mk2s and 3s are more white

[super8man]

Thanks for the replies. I seem to remember on the old dmu's to Huddersfield from Penistone and just can remember the EM's to Sheffield the lights were a bit yellowish. WOW a long time ago. They were bulbs golf ball shape I think. The dmu's are all florescent now.

 

I don't really model an era I just model what I like. I suppose my layout could be classed as 'Utopia' where anything goes. Not bothered that I run all sorts of different company trains, but I would like to get the lighting correct.

 

I enjoy it and my kids do too. Henry likes diesels though. I think what I run is called modellers licence. Oh and Dr Beeching's report was never implemented.

 

Off my original topic but still on my local station. When it was a major junction, Bill who was a porter at Penistone told me a story about James Mason. Now James Mason was from Huddersfield, when he came up from London, he had to change at Penistone. Bill the porter used to take his bags from the London platforms (2) to the Huddersfield platforms. Mr Mason always gave a two bob tip (10p) which I suppose now would be a few pounds.

 

Just to say that Penistone station my version is a main line with trains to everywhere. It is still a work in progress though.

 

I have bought some led strip if it looks to bright a larger resistor should make them less bright.

 

Don't think any of my coaches would use gas lights, but I have a Hornby Caladonian 'toy' in blue with coaches, maybe that had gas?

 

Sorry but I do tend to ramble a bit.

[phil-b259]

Its worth noting that fluorescent lights can still be yellowish, especially if the diffusers are old and the plastic has aged. Certainly the illumination levels in the FCC 319 units looks decidedly 'dirty' compared to newer stock. Mind you the brightest (and bluest lighting) I have seen thus far was from a unit that had been fitted with LEDs instead of florescent tubes.

 

Another thing to consider with steam era coaching stock is the power source. Filament bulbs run off under coach batteries generally emit less light than ETS driven ones, especially as the condition of the batteries deteriorates over time. Thus even a filament fitted MK1 could have different levels of illumination depending on the motive power hauling it

[Edwin_m]

In Mk1s there was often a distinct change in lighting level at a certain speed (about 30mph I think) when the axle-driven generator was producing enough volts to take over from (and recharge) the batteries.  If the batteries were a bit dodgy the lights would suddenly get brighter (has anyone modelled this?), though I recall one coach where there was some problem with the circuit and the lights went out until it slowed down again! 

 

This must be part of the reason why preserved railways don't turn coach lighting on unless they have to.  At the speeds they run, the generator would hardly charge the batteries so I assume they have to use a portable charger when they are stabled. 

[corneliuslundie]

The other contributors have covered most issues.

 

Fluorescent lamps come in many colours with different colour temperatures. Warm White has a lower colour temperature that White. Daylight tubes would not be used in trains as they are pretty inefficient - or were before triphosphor lamps came in.

 

But the other thing you have to watch is what your interiors look like. LEDs produce their white in a different way to fluorescent tubes or incandescent lamps, and the spectrum is different, though the colour temperature may be the same. This means that colours may not look the same under different sources. This is known as metamerism. The best thing to do is to experiment with the paints you will use under the LEDs to make sure they look how you want them to.

 

I am not sure about putting a resistort in circuit to change the intensity of LEDs. It may depend on the control circuit.

[Pacific231G]

Another thing to consider with steam era coaching stock is the power source. Filament bulbs run off under coach batteries generally emit less light than ETS driven ones, especially as the condition of the batteries deteriorates over time. Thus even a filament fitted MK1 could have different levels of illumination depending on the motive power hauling it

Good point but filament bulbs don't just glow less brightly if the voltage to them drops they are also less hot and their colour changes towards the red end of the spectrum so they'd probably look yellow. I think the grain of wheat bulbs we used to use did this but LEDs work differently so they just get less bright but at the same colour so it's probably a question of pick your colour. It seems that incandescent gas lighting and tungsten filament lighting are rather similar in colour.

[Horsetan]

.....They were bulbs golf ball shape I think.......

 

I wonder if they were the same bulb type that were also found in Routemaster buses? When they were on the Route 113 to and from my school, I remember that the off-white glow was made more "yellow" by the cream interior paintwork.

[stewartingram]

I wonder if they were the same bulb type that were also found in Routemaster buses? When they were on the Route 113 to and from my school, I remember that the off-white glow was made more "yellow" by the cream interior paintwork.

....and nicotine stained too!

 

Don't forget that it was not until relatively recently, probably with widespread use of fluorescent tubes, (roughly equating to the blue era?) that coach lighting was normally OFF in daylight, being turned on by the guard when going through tunnels.

 

Stewart