Mk1 BCK - bogies

[forest2807]

Trawling through the pages of Ebay today I came across the Bachmann Mk1 BCK in blue/grey livery fitted with what appears to be B4 bogies. Was this commonplace? - I know many Mk1's were fitted with Commonwealth bogies but hadn't realised that any passenger carrying Mk1's (as opposed to some BG's and NEA's) were fitted with B4's.

[llamafish]

I've seen video footage of a B/G Restaurant coach with B4 bogies, so it's entirely plausible.

 

'A MK1 Restaurant coach in Blue and Grey... and is seen on the later B4 type bogie, as fitted to MK2 stock'

[Gary H]

Trawling through the pages of Ebay today I came across the Bachmann Mk1 BCK in blue/grey livery fitted with what appears to be B4 bogies. Was this commonplace? - I know many Mk1's were fitted with Commonwealth bogies but hadn't realised that any passenger carrying Mk1's (as opposed to some BG's and NEA's) were fitted with B4's.

As common as piggy poo as far as i remember And then there was MK1 EMU stock, lots of B4's! I reckon the differance would have been the B4 fitted with friction dampers as aposed to oil dampers.

[Pennine MC]

As common as piggy poo as far as i remember

 

 

I'm not so familiar as Gary with piggy poo but yes, there were loads of 'em. Probably not as many as Commonwealths, because many late batches were built with those, but the WR in particular retro-fitted many coaches with B4s. Even some choc 'n' cream ones - I'm not going into detail there because somebody else is bound to

 

B4s were indeed used on catering cars, but a lot in such use would actually have been the similar but heavier B5

[eastwestdivide]

If you're interested in a particular year for BCKs or vehicle, I can check against RCTS coach books for 76, 78, 81, 82, 84 (I think).

[Fat Controller]

I'm not so familiar as Gary with piggy poo but yes, there were loads of 'em. Probably not as many as Commonwealths, because many late batches were built with those, but the WR in particular retro-fitted many coaches with B4s. Even some choc 'n' cream ones - I'm not going into detail there because somebody else is bound to

 

B4s were indeed used on catering cars, but a lot in such use would actually have been the similar but heavier B5

In 'Heyday of the Westerns', there is a photo of a 'chocolate and cream' Mark 1 on B4 bogies, taken in 1963/4. This isn't perhaps as surprising as it might be, as the B4 was developed at Swindon.

[Arpster]

The ever unreliable Wikipedia states that the B4 was used to replace wornout B1 bogies but a very small amount of Mk1s were fitted with them from new.

[Bob Reid]

The ever unreliable Wikipedia states that the B4 was used to replace wornout B1 bogies but a very small amount of Mk1s were fitted with them from new.

 

No great fan of Wikipedia however in overall scheme of things (against the total number of Mark 1s built with either BR standard bogies or Commonwealths from 1951 to 1964) only a small amount relatively were fitted. None were fitted with them from new, (excluding of course the 8-car prototype train (XP-64) vehicles)) being all later replacements. The Western Region (and Eastern for a while) trials were with the pre-production versions. It's well worth looking for a specific example for the period your trying to model

 

It's worth joining up the BR Coaching Stock Yahoo group to get this answered in full - some work has already been done by Robert Carroll and others in tracking the B4/B5 fitment down.

 

p.s. Read the description on Wikipedia for BR1 bogies (which is syndicated across many other sites) that tell the reader, they were only suspended on four leaf springs, and used one piece wheel/axle assemblies, which had oil-filled roller bearings absolute cr@p the whole lot of it. But it must be true - it's on t'internet)..........

 

Having read the rest of that "wiki" page It's time for a rant - the whole lot is (as far as BR Bogies go) full of fiction in the mind of someone completely without a clue, and without even basic research. I mean "Commonwealth bogies" made by SKF or Timken? - err is that because that's what it says on the tin?. Assembled & part made by BR Workshops, with the major cast components coming from English Steel Castings in Sheffield made to a licensed design from the American Steel Corp. designed and originally produced at their "Commonwealth" foundry in the US.....

[Guest Phil]

Absolutely no expert on bogies but I'm sure I've been told that the original B1 and B2 bogies were fine when new or shopped, but rapidly deteriorated in traffic and gave quite a poor ride. B4s and Commonwealths were a substitute but I have no idea from when and how many. I'm also not sure whether additional CWs were ordered by BR to replace B1s and B2s.

 

The 90 mph mention may be a red herring. Was that to do with "A"s and "B"s - "A" being maintained to a higher standard than "B"s ? I'm sure "A"s and "B"s have been discussed before on RMweb.

 

Sorry I'm not much help on this.

[96701]

Absolutely no expert on bogies but I'm sure I've been told that the original B1 and B2 bogies were fine when new or shopped, but rapidly deteriorated in traffic and gave quite a poor ride. B4s and Commonwealths were a substitute but I have no idea from when and how many. I'm also not sure whether additional CWs were ordered by BR to replace B1s and B2s.

 

The 90 mph mention may be a red herring. Was that to do with "A"s and "B"s - "A" being maintained to a higher standard than "B"s ? I'm sure "A"s and "B"s have been discussed before on RMweb.

 

Sorry I'm not much help on this.

 

When I was doing my training at Blackpool North Carriage 'Depot' in the 70s, I was told that the vehicles fitted the original B1 bogies were restricted to less than 100mph, so we had to make sure that the if the London trains had any Mk1 coaches in them, they needed to be fitted with Mk4s or Commonwealth bogies, and the only vehicles I saw fitted with Commonwealth were catering vehicles. I was told that the Commonwealths were better under the heavier vehicles. Obviously, being a trainee, I took these people at their word.

[Bob Reid]

The Eastern Region instructions were similar, I'm sure that this was a BRB. policy though, the Regions being the bodies through which the restrictions were applied. From memory I recall the 90MPH. limits being mentioned in some weekly notices (P. Way etc.) around 1971/2, where Mk. 1 carriages with B1 bogies were restricted to 90 MPH. and those with Commonwealth/B1 etc. 100 MPH. Instructions were also issued that the maximum speeds be stencilled on the carriage ends on the data panels and that carriage depots try to ensure that trains timed in excess of 90 MPH. be provided with the correct vehicles, where this was not possible the Guard was to inform the Driver that 90MPH. vehicles were part of the formation and that speed was not to be exceeded.

 

Yes and no David Whilst all B4/B4 andCommonwealth bogie equipped Mark 1s and B4 equipped Mark 2s could run at speeds up to 100 mph, the Eastern at the time of the introduction of the high speed services in 1966 were still short of similarly equipped FKs, SKs and BCKs. As a result, a number of these passenger vehicles and some BGs (about 32 vehicles all in) equipped with BR1 light double bolster bogies were given special treatment including different whitemetal bearings an an even higher frequency of exams to allow them to run at 100mph.

 

Whilst the normal B4s and Commonwealth equipped vehicles were marked on the ends (typically) BCK (A) 100 mph, the specially selected and maintained BR1 bogie vehicles were marked (again typically) BCK (A) 100 mph (SM) - for Special Maintenance....

 

This was to some extent only a short term measure for few years pending the re-bogieing of the remaining Mark 1s required to support the introduction of the Mark 2s on the Eastern, Western and London Midland Regions based services.

[Gary H]

Yes and no David Whilst all B4/B4 andCommonwealth bogie equipped Mark 1s and B4 equipped Mark 2s could run at speeds up to 100 mph, the Eastern at the time of the introduction of the high speed services in 1966 were still short of similarly equipped FKs, SKs and BCKs. As a result, a number of these passenger vehicles and some BGs (about 32 vehicles all in) equipped with BR1 light double bolster bogies were given special treatment including different whitemetal bearings an an even higher frequency of exams to allow them to run at 100mph.

 

Whilst the normal B4s and Commonwealth equipped vehicles were marked on the ends (typically) BCK (A) 100 mph, the specially selected and maintained BR1 bogie vehicles were marked (again typically) BCK (A) 100 mph (SM) - for Special Maintenance....

 

This was to some extent only a short term measure for few years pending the re-bogieing of the remaining Mark 1s required to support the introduction of the Mark 2s on the Eastern, Western and London Midland Regions based services.

Interesting stuff Bob. Didnt the more normal 90mph restriction also have something to do with 'hunting'. I can well remember back in the good ole days of window leaning from alot of loco hauled trains, seeing the BR1 bogie hunting from side to side and making you feel you were about to come off the road at 90 pluss

Never such things seemed to happen with a B4 or Commonwealth obviously.

[Gary H]

I also recall the hunting which could be quite livlely when riding in the carriages, and DMUs. for that matter, which seemed to occur on straight sections of welded rail. Jointed track and, perhaps to a lesser extent, curves used to break the cycle and the hunting either stopped or was greatly reduced.

Yep, back when trains were trains eh

[drandles]

Most of the BR Mk1 stock which formed the "Red Dragon" (Paddington-Carmarthen) set was fitted with B4 bogies when it was still painted in chocolate and cream in the steam era in the very early 1960s. I think this was the first use of the B4 bogies.

 

David

[forest2807]

Thanks for all your replies chaps, I feel like I have been educated in all matters bogie related!

[Jim T]

Hello all

 

As I understand it, fitting of Commonwealth and B4 bogies to Mark 1s was primarily a ride quality measure. This tended to be applied to stock where ride was more of an issue: restaurant/buffet cars, sleeping cars, firsts in the faster/more prestigious trains. As these were often air braked and/or electrically heated (or dual) the coaches so fitted tended to be withdrawn later than the run of the mill BR1 fitted stock. Commonwealth bogies were really an interim measure to improve ride whilst something better was developed (eventually the B4 bogie and its heavy duty brother the B5 bogie), but they were expensive and very heavy. Once the B4/B5 was available, it was fitted (mostly retrofitted, the main building programme had by then finished) to a limited number of Mark 1s. Mark 1 coaching stock still running in 1986 with B4/B5 bogies were as follows (B4 unless stated as B5, and excluding the Royal Train):

 

RKB: 1508/13/24/28/54/55/63/67 (all B5 - 8 of 8 still in revenue stock)

RBR: 1701/03/04/30/31/32/38 (B5 - 7 of 71)

RMB: 1805 (B4) and 1850 (B5) (2 of 38)

RBR: 1923/24/44/45/46/47/48/53/54/56 (10 of 22 - my book doesn't state B4 or B5)

FO: 3021/33/45/49/50/51/52/55/63/71/72/75/85/86/87/88/89/90/91/92/93/94/95/96/97/98/99/100 (28 of 48)

TSO: 4459/4720/70/74/75/4831/32/34/35/36/39/42/43/44/45/46/47/48/49/52/53/54/55/56/57/58/59/60/61/62/64/66/67/69/71/73/75/76/80/83/84/85/86/88/89/91/94/95/99/4902/09/15/16 (53 of 306)

SO: 4820/22/23/24/26/28/29 (7 of 54)

CK: 7119/20/21/22/25/28/29/31 (8 of 129)

FK: 13085/94/13225/27/28/29/30/33/34/36/37 (11 of 36)

BSK: 35274/75/76/79/80/81/82/83/84/86/87/90/91/92/93 (15 of 230)

 

There do not appear to have been BCK survivors that were B4 or B5 fitted by 1986. The BCK mentioned above on the WHL was supplemented by SC21072 or SC21184 which both survived until '84 with B4 bogies. These were used for the through seated passengers on the Fort William sleeper service (before the introduction of the Mark 3 sleepers) and so had to be vacuum brake, steam heat to work with the sleepers. I guess the B4s were a sop to the first class seated passengers on this run.

 

Compiling this list, I'm surprised how many TSOs were B4 fitted - many more than I'd expected, when by 1970 there'd be a good supply of Mark 2 TSOs. Any ideas why, anyone?

 

Jim

[mcowgill]

One Saturday evening I had first hand experience of commonwealth bogies at over 100mph - they start to get a bit bouncy! I think the driver of the class 91 at the head of a Cumbrian Mountain Express returning back from Leeds on the ECML forgot what was behind him, I clocked us at over 115 down Stoke Bank in Mk1 Pullmans.

 

Martin C

[eastwestdivide]

...There do not appear to have been BCK survivors that were B4 or B5 fitted by 1986. ...

 

In the 1986 coaching stock book (Ian Allan), there were only 16 BCKs left then anyway.

For comparison, the RCTS books list:

in the 1982 book 43 BCK, of which 14 with B4s

the 1978 book 91 BCK, of which 32 with B4s

and the 1976 book 114 BCK, of which 32 with B4s (same 32 as in 1978)

[Pennine MC]

Yes and no David Whilst all B4/B4 andCommonwealth bogie equipped Mark 1s and B4 equipped Mark 2s could run at speeds up to 100 mph, the Eastern at the time of the introduction of the high speed services in 1966 were still short of similarly equipped FKs, SKs and BCKs. As a result, a number of these passenger vehicles and some BGs (about 32 vehicles all in) equipped with BR1 light double bolster bogies were given special treatment including different whitemetal bearings an an even higher frequency of exams to allow them to run at 100mph.

 

Whilst the normal B4s and Commonwealth equipped vehicles were marked on the ends (typically) BCK (A) 100 mph, the specially selected and maintained BR1 bogie vehicles were marked (again typically) BCK (A) 100 mph (SM) - for Special Maintenance....

 

This was to some extent only a short term measure for few years pending the re-bogieing of the remaining Mark 1s required to support the introduction of the Mark 2s on the Eastern, Western and London Midland Regions based services.

 

Didnt know about those Bob, but I'm also fairly sure that a few BGs remained as 100mph SM on B1 bogies into the 70s - IIRC they were WR ones

[Bob Reid]

As I understand it, fitting of Commonwealth and B4 bogies to Mark 1s was primarily a ride quality measure. This tended to be applied to stock where ride was more of an issue: restaurant/buffet cars, sleeping cars, firsts in the faster/more prestigious trains.

 

It was entirely a ride issue Jim. Although the prototype B4 had been tried some four years earlier 1956 it was still in the development stage. It was decided in 1959 to run with the already proven commonwealth design for fitment to all new construction loco-hauled vehicles (with only a few exceptions) for a period of three years from the 1960 build programme.

 

As these were often air braked and/or electrically heated (or dual) the coaches so fitted tended to be withdrawn later than the run of the mill BR1 fitted stock.

 

It certainly was the case that they were (generally) withdrawn later however initially they were neither equipped with Electric Train Heating or Air Braking - something which wasn't done retrospectively until between 1966 and 1969 in the main.

 

Compiling this list, I'm surprised how many TSOs were B4 fitted - many more than I'd expected, when by 1970 there'd be a good supply of Mark 2 TSOs. Any ideas why, anyone?

 

In 1970 Jim the introduction of Mark 2s were for use on selected principle services only on first the Eastern and Western Regions, followed a couple of years after by the London Midland. There was however still a need to accelerate all of the other second string services which were not receiving the Mark 2s (The Scottish Region being perhaps the best example of the worst case having no new build construction) and the bulk of these conversions to B4s were for use on these "other" trains for all the regions, coupled to the BRB policy of moving away from compartment to open saloon vehicles. The actual number of Mark 1 vehicles that were required to run in conjunction with the Mark 2 sets was relatively small, being in the main Catering vehicles (inc. supporting FOs and some SO's) and BGs.

 

The conversions to B4s were being done at the same time as the new builds (they didn't wait till the end of construction, as it was to last for 10 years), though whilst Derby LL concentrated (though not exclusively) on new build, the other works were also picking up the conversions from BR Bogies to B4/B5s and the fitment of Air Brakes and ETH.