Poor build quality

[7013]

Dave I agree, I frequently look at some of the continental offerings and drool, the quality is stunning and yes the price matches.

The value of looking at past events is that it gives us perspective on the present and is a benchmark for the future, and a good example of this pertains to the subject of this thread.

[oreamnos]

I am sorry the OP has had such rotten luck with Dapol locos.  I've certainly had my share, too.  But also with Farish ones as well.  I know there is at least one other thread on this board about this topic and I have seen others elsewhere.  They always set off a torrent of comment and debate.

 

I would say over the years I have returned about a third (or more) of the locos I have ordered - of both brands.  Indeed, I've even returned a couple locos to Colin Heard at Union Mills.  Others might be perfectly happy to live with some of the problems I've found unacceptable (such as flaws in bodywork mouldings or paint finish, which I'm fussy about) and vice-versa.  Sloppy or untidy assembly is perhaps the most common problem I've encountered.

 

I've come to the conclusion that I personally would prefer to have the cost of models be kept as low as possible even if that meant there was no QC and nobody at a shop examined the product before it was shipped to me.  The reason is that no QC tester knows what problems I can, and cannot, live with.  Even if every model was tested I might still receive one that had a niggling issue I found unacceptable - and then I've paid more but am still no better off.

 

If I receive a model from a discount box-shifter (or even better, on special offer) and it meets my standards, I feel I've gotten a model for a competitive price.  If the model doesn't meet my standards, I return it.  There is a cost and inconvenience involved if that is required, yes, but I view that as just part of the overall cost of the hobby, and on the whole I think I'm better off paying less for untested models and having to send some back than paying more for tested models...and having to send some back!

 

Matt

[James]

 

but I view that as just part of the overall cost of the hobby

More fool you if you do.

 

If you are buying a new product from a shop, then this attitude is bizarre. That is a normal retail transaction, what you do afterwards is the hobby part. If you buy seconds or second hand then there is a risk but buying new and unused shouldn't bring with it an expectation that the goods may be faulty.

[oreamnos]

[edit]

 

If you are buying a new product from a shop, then this attitude is bizarre.

 

[edit]

 

Perhaps if you live in the UK but it's not when you live in California and no shop (of the handful that are left) has ever even heard of British outline.  (Continental (i.e., German), no problem.  British?  Blank stares.  1:148 scale?  Huh?)

 

Matt

[Horsetan]

Hi 7013,

 

...my only interest in this discussion is to support the notion of paying a fair price for a top notch product. It is a waste of breath chasing past events....the future starts here and now.

 

We as the consumer are driving model manufacturers to make ever bigger economies so why are we whining about it?

See previous post about wanting owt for nowt. The general mentality (or is it a form of mendacity?) in respect of the price of brand-new products would make Fagin look profligate.

[StuartM]

For the record, the controller I'm using is a bog standard panel mounted Gauagemaster, no feedback, no inertia control, no HF track cleaner, no DCC

 

'My' personal experience is that every Dapol model 'I' have purchased in the last 18months has had an issue with it, some minor, some not.

These issues fall into three category's

1. lights not working

2. Poor running

3. smoke

 

I'm amazed at how many posts on here seem to think that a faulty product is a)Normal and b)acceptable

Whereas others seem to think that continuously returning a model until they get one they're happy with, is also acceptable?

I feel sorry for the retailer as I'm sure returns is just one big unwanted expense for them.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if I spend £10, £100 or £1000 on something, it should work fault free.

[Dr Al]

I rejected four 03s at Hattons (my daughter used to live in Penny Lane about 200 yards from Hattons shop) because they stalled under test- Hattons are happy to test in the shop.  Of my three (now two as one was sold as surplus) all had to have pickups bent to the right shape to get contact on all appropriate wheels. The worst was only making contact on two wheels much of the time.   That isn't ideal QC.

 

My Class 14 started running a little roughly.  When I asked a Bachmann employee about the 14 he said "probably quartering, that's what you get for buying a lemon".  It turned out to be a wheel slightly out of quartering, which has been fixed (by me) and the loco runs happily.

 

Similar experience - have a pair of great running 03s now, but both needed quartering adjustments. Also with my class 14, and I have another  NCB 14 that may need the same as it's not quite perfect.

 

Interesting that Farish appear to be aware that getting quartered wheels is one of their weaknesses - I would hope this means they will look to address it.

 

Incidentally, this is an area where Dapol have really excelled - I'm not concerned with quartering or wheel concentricness with any new Dapol purchase.

 

cheers,

Alan

[PLD]

I'm amazed at how many posts on here seem to think that a faulty product is a)Normal and b)acceptable

 

 

I don't think anyone has ever said that "a fautly product is acceptable", just that there is some debate about what degree of minor 'fault' is tollerable/fixable by the purchaser and what should be returned to the retailer for replacement. And that boundary will vary depending on the purchasers skill level and priorities...

 

However, it is YOU that is saying that (in your experience) 'Faulty' is 'Normal' whereas others are saying that (in thier experience) 'Faulty' is the exception and NOT 'Normal'.

 

What most are trying to establish is what factors lead to different purchasers reporting different experiences with the same manufacturers range, then perhaps those who report good experience could help you increase your satisfaction with the products...

[trisonic]

I would certainly hope that American readers of RMweb don't see this racist stereotype as the general British view of them. I trust the moderators will take it down at their earliest convenience.

CHRIS LEIGH

Thanks, Chris. Stereotypes abound!

 

Best, Pete.

[roundhouse]

I don't think anyone has ever said that "a fautly product is acceptable", just that there is some debate about what degree of minor 'fault' is tollerable/fixable by the purchaser and what should be returned to the retailer for replacement. And that boundary will vary depending on the purchasers skill level and priorities...

 

However, it is YOU that is saying that (in your experience) 'Faulty' is 'Normal' whereas others are saying that (in thier experience) 'Faulty' is the exception and NOT 'Normal'.

 

What most are trying to establish is what factors lead to different purchasers reporting different experiences with the same manufacturers range, then perhaps those who report good experience could help you increase your satisfaction with the products...

I think that there are a couple of issues here:

 

1 - We probably all have different  views / tolerances of what is acceptable running quality or not so this will influence what we think of each manufacturers products.

 

2 - When we do find something wrong or unacceptable it then becomes at what point each of us are prepared to fix the problem or send straight back.

For me the hassle of going back to a shop or to package up then go to a post office to post back means more often than not I will try and fix the problem. If some thing has fallen off then I will refix it - a good example of this is the exhaust pipes on the Dapol bubble cars (despite being aware and reading Dapol's warning I still occasionally knock them off but quite happy sticking them back on). If there is a mechanical problem I will look and and if I think I can fix it without invalidating the warranty I will as it will normally be easier then sending back. 

 

I quite like opening things up so its all part of the interest (in the past I have opened up PC's when I have bought them, making sure that they work first).

 

As mentioned in an earlier post when I had a problem with Farish Tornado's tender circuit board I found the problem and sorted it myself as that again was easier than sending back but again at the risk I took if I couldn't fix it. However  when I had a problem with some Dapol locos a few years ago then they went straight back to the retailer as I didn't know where the problem was and didn't want to take this risk in dabbling with it..

 

 

All things we buy should be working properly when we buy them but the world isn't perfect and so we make the decision as to what point we are prepared to live with the issue.

 

However, I quite understand why some will not want to take this risk with items costing around £100 or more.

 

 

Ian

[trisonic]

Having re-read this thread today I have to note that the OP lives on the Scilly Isles. I wonder whether packages to these beautiful isles are treated rather cruelly along the way from the mainland to their final destination?

I say this because this fact is the main difference between the recipient and others replying to this thread.

 

Best, Pete.

 

PS Please note I made no reference to the parcels lying in the scuppers of the vessel or the effects of attack by Barbary Pirates or  the French Navy.......

[roundhouse]

Having re-read this thread today I have to note that the OP lives on the Scilly Isles. I wonder whether packages to these beautiful isles are treated rather cruelly along the way from the mainland to their final destination?

I say this because this fact is the main difference between the recipient and others replying to this thread.

 

Best, Pete.

 

PS Please note I made no reference to the parcels lying in the scuppers of the vessel or the effects of attack by Barbary Pirates or  the French Navy.......

Pete

 

Can't be that otherwise they would all be knackered on the long sea journey from China.

 

However it could be the salty air due to living on the coast once the box has been opened

 

Ian

[trisonic]

Ian,

I was thinking that if the weather was bad the parcels may be dropped kicked ashore.........  

See previous posts in this thread on the "American Condition".

 

Best, Pete. 

[StuartM]

Pete

 

Can't be that otherwise they would all be knackered on the long see journey from China.

 

However it could be the salty air due to living on the coast once the box has been opened

 

Ian

If it's the postal journey that's causing a problem I would suggest that if this video is anything to go by then the problem may well be in the country of manufacture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tPzRPga6uDg#!

[roundhouse]

If it's the postal journey that's causing a problem I would suggest that if this video is anything to go by then the problem may well be in the country of manufacture

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=tPzRPga6uDg#!

 

I have seen worse than that at one of the UK airports some years back when working airside!

 

Hopefully it much better nowawdays.

 

Ian

[StuartM]

Seriously If I were a company shipping my products in from overseas and people were complaining about QC issues and this is how my products where being treated, then I'd want to know so I could do something about it.

Another case for bringing manufacture back to the UK?

[roundhouse]

Seriously If I were a company shipping my products in from overseas and people were complaining about QC issues and this is how my products where being treated, then I'd want to know so I could do something about it.

Another case for bringing manufacture back to the UK?

I suspect most companies are aware of this and this is why some locos are very hard to remove from the packing as its designed more for protection during shipping than ease of getting out of the packaging.

 

Ian

[Stu from EGDL]

Hi Guys....

I have just received two locos....

Farish 70006...didn't work from the box, some downward pressure got movement but stalled on curves. Red lights did not work in one direction.  Adjusted the bogie tower pick-ups and the lighting contacts and all was well.

Dapol 27032...Ran well straight out the box(and lub'ed) ...lights all fine.  After running in (with the 70) for about 30 mins, I reversed direction and ...NO LIGHTS. Original direction OK, but reverse...NOWT.  Took the body off, reseated the plugs, checked the wires etc...same result.  Wrote an e-mail to the trader requesting return details etc etc...About an hour later, tried it again out of curiosity...and ALL LIGHTS OK.  So this is probably a thermal issue, but as the loco will probably only work in short bursts...I'll probably live with it instead of returning it.

Conclusion....poor assembly and/or transit protection in both cases.  However, both are  acceptable runners and I can live with the lighting glitch.

Later;
STU from EGDL

[roundhouse]

Hi Guys....

 

I have just received two locos....

 

Farish 70006...didn't work from the box, some downward pressure got movement but stalled on curves. Red lights did not work in one direction.  Adjusted the bogie tower pick-ups and the lighting contacts and all was well.

 

Dapol 27032...Ran well straight out the box(and lub'ed) ...lights all fine.  After running in (with the 70) for about 30 mins, I reversed direction and ...NO LIGHTS. Original direction OK, but reverse...NOWT.  Took the body off, reseated the plugs, checked the wires etc...same result.  Wrote an e-mail to the trader requesting return details etc etc...About an hour later, tried it again out of curiosity...and ALL LIGHTS OK.  So this is probably a thermal issue, but as the loco will probably only work in short bursts...I'll probably live with it instead of returning it.

 

Conclusion....poor assembly and/or transit protection in both cases.  However, both are  acceptable runners and I can live with the lighting glitch.

 

Later;

STU from EGDL

The issue with the Farish class 70 is appearing in other forums. Its seems to be a design issue. Both of mine were OK out of the box and ran fine on Banbury during a whole weekend when I got them.

 

After handling at home during packing with more weight weathering etc, they stopped working. I found out that if handling and applying some pressure to the bogies and body at same time, the pickups from the bogies to the underside of the loco bend and lose electrical contact. So these locos do need very careful handling.

 

If you send them back, then once returned you are likely to encounter the same problem in the future.

 

Ian

[Claude_Dreyfus]

I suspect part of the issue is the size of the UK N gauge market. Reading through many of the posts there is a mixture of return it, try to fix it yourself or live with it. For UK those are probably the only options; after all, you don't have a huge amount of choice, and both major manufacturers seem to have QC issues.

 

You will always get the odd dud, however there is enough evidence that UK N gauge offerings seem to suffer from a much higher percentage of quality issues that other, similarly priced, electrical items. There has been plenty of comparisons with overseas manufacturers, but in a way it is a little unfair. Quality European models are pricey; whilst many US and Japanese models are of a high quality and low prices due to the size of their market; for example there are more N gauge modellers in Japan than in the whole of Europe.

 

If you do get a bad model - or some failing with a model - and alternative quickly appears. For example, the Kato Glacier Express couplings result in massive gaps between the carriages. An alternative was found by a number of modellers using Tomix items! This has prompted Kato to start developing a new set of couplings as replacements; they are due very soon. Would something like that ever happen for the UK?

 

There is also the attitude to the customer. Having dealt with both US and Japanese companies (and having been in the States last week), the levels of customer service you get far exceeds anything you get in the UK. In general shops and manufacturers do give a damn, and they want to help you and address any issues...they treat it as if it is their problem, not yours.

 

I gave up with UK N gauge a few years ago, and whilst there are some tempting models out there - and I have succumbed a couple of times! - there is still nothing to suggest to me that I would be happy to concentrate on UK models again.

[Etched Pixels]

The issue with the Farish class 70 is appearing in other forums. Its seems to be a design issue. Both of mine were OK out of the box and ran fine on Banbury during a whole weekend when I got them.

 

After handling at home during packing with more weight weathering etc, they stopped working. I found out that if handling and applying some pressure to the bogies and body at same time, the pickups from the bogies to the underside of the loco bend and lose electrical contact. So these locos do need very careful handling.

 

If you send them back, then once returned you are likely to encounter the same problem in the future.

 

Ian

 

I noticed similar with the Farish 66 (although I've since got rid of my Farish 66). Are they still using brass strips on the 70 for them rather than either phosphor bronze (which keeps its springiness) or springs ?

 

Quite a lot of US and Japanese models seem to use springs for the power transmission from the bogies and it does appear much more reliable. For most of the Chinese built Farish locos I prefer to solder wires to the bogies. I'm not sure its a "fault" but the definitely run better in the long term with all the extra silly little metal strips cut out of the power transmission path. The early Chinese BO-BO chassis however seems to fine. Unlike the others the power conducting strips to the blocks are more substantial and more importantly under the chassis block so that gravity plus the constant rubbing as it takes curves keeps it all clean and working.

[roundhouse]

North American models, despite being a slightly smaller scale are still bigger than nay British N scale diesel so straight off there is more space to fit a solid chassis and they are probably produced in much larger quantities, not only because there are far more real versions owned by numerous railroads that run them in multiple consist, there is a much bigger population base so no doubt far more modellers likely to buy them. On top of this, some chassis are used under numerous different loco types so the development costs and modifications are more easily covered.

 

Compare this with say the new Dapol  N scale class 22 (no implication of any problems with these) which were a very small class that didn't normally run in multiple, lasted only a few years in limited areas of the country. On top of that, its got a very small chassis that is probably much of a one off design, so is in a completely different ball game to the USA stuff.

 

Despite these vast differences  I have still had a number of USA locos fail fairly quickly. One Kato required a new motor - it was cheaper to order a new motor from Kato than the postage to send the loco back (again motors used in many models so cheap to buy). Another fairly new loco stripped its gears. Its newer design mechanism and to me looks far less robust than the older type mechanism.

 

I cant comment on Japanese or European models as don't have enough to be able to do so.

 

Ian

[roundhouse]

I noticed similar with the Farish 66 (although I've since got rid of my Farish 66). Are they still using brass strips on the 70 for them rather than either phosphor bronze (which keeps its springiness) or springs ?

 

Quite a lot of US and Japanese models seem to use springs for the power transmission from the bogies and it does appear much more reliable. For most of the Chinese built Farish locos I prefer to solder wires to the bogies. I'm not sure its a "fault" but the definitely run better in the long term with all the extra silly little metal strips cut out of the power transmission path. The early Chinese BO-BO chassis however seems to fine. Unlike the others the power conducting strips to the blocks are more substantial and more importantly under the chassis block so that gravity plus the constant rubbing as it takes curves keeps it all clean and working.

The Farish class 70 bogie pickups rub straight underneath the chassis halves. Its a very small phosphor bronze tag that bends 90 degrees to rub horizontally under the chassis halves.

 

The bogies have a certain amount of movement vertically so putting pressure on them tends to bend these pickups down so when the bogie returns to normal, the pickups no longer wipe on the chassis halves. The 66's have more solid bogie pickups that go right into the body to touch the phosphor bronze strips, so quite different in design.

 

I have hard wired the class 168 bogies straight to the decoder as did have problems with them after dismantling them to isolate the motor from the chassis halve to make them DCC friendly. I might do the something similar with the Farish 66's.

 

Ian

[Claude_Dreyfus]

 

I cant comment on Japanese or European models as don't have enough to be able to do so.

 

 

Although not common, Japanese stuff can go wrong. I have a couple of trains that have given me issues. Kato, for example, supply a huge range of spares, which often remain available long after the production runs for the model itself have ceased. There are also a lot of common parts between models, which helps.

 

Micro Ace, on the other hand, are notorious for being very difficult to repair - with spares being very tricky to obtain. Fortuately they rarely go wrong.

[7013]

My apologies if anyone took my comment about Americans as racist, I believe it was written in a quite light hearted manner and tongue was meant to be planted in cheek. Obviously irony is lost on some people.