57XX pannier tank - whitemetal kits

[Captain Kernow]

I'm doing a bit of detective work on behalf of a friend, who has recently had a whitemetal kit of a 57XX pannier tank professionally built (actually, it's an 8750 type with the more modern cab). Notwithstanding the slightly unusual decision to have one of these kit built, instead of buying a Bachmann one, the kit is very nicely put together. However, I'm slightly at a loss as to where one can currently buy a whitemetal kit for one of these locos. Apart from the K's kit for the 57XX, I'm not sure who else did this type (and did K's even do the later cab type?).

 

Any suggestions folks, would be most welcome, thanks.

 

[gwrrob]

I don't think Westward did one [57xx] in their range but they did do a 54xx/64xx/74xx pannier I'm sure Tim.No help to you though I'm afraid.I'd expect the kit was off ebay as I'd imagine they'd be quite a few on there surplus due to a rtr version being available.

 

http://www.gwr.org.uk/kits4locos.html

[devonseasider]

I'm open to correction, but the only whitemetal 57XX that comes to mind is the K's one (or NuCast, or Autocom or whatever - after all, they're all the same kit).

As Rob says, Westward did a 54/64/74XX variant, as did Stephen Poole previously.  Again, they may well be the same kit - not sure whether Westward took over the Stephen Poole moulds, but seems too much of a coincidence to be otherwise.

 

Regarding the second question - did K's do the later cab type?

Answer is a resounding "Yes" - I have an unmade one in a box (a *very* big box!) of unmade kits alongside me as I type which contains castings for both types of cab.  I think the earlier kits had the original cab, later kits having the option of either.  Most likely senility setting in (or one too many speckledy hens!), but I seem to remember seeing one somewhere, sometime, with an etched "wrap-over" cab - or am I getting confused with a Westward (?), JacksonEvans (?), Crownline (?) conversion for the Mainline/Bachmann pannier?

[Captain Kernow]

Thanks folks, this confirms my suspicions. The gentleman in question has an 8750 model, which I now think is made from a K's kit as the basis, with either K's or some other 'after-market' kit for the larger cab added.

 

He's also commissioned a 64XX, and it seems too late to cancel this in terms of the arrangement he has with the builder (bearing in mind that as of yesterday he knows that a Bachmann RTR one is coming out in due course).

 

What I think happened is that he made contact with the builder (based on the recommendation of someone else), and said 'I'd like a model of a 8750 pannier, please'. It seems that the builder has guided him towards this K's kit solution and not towards the Bachmann RTR version. If so, I simply can't think why, unless it's for rather cynical reasons on the part of the builder? I must emphasise that the builder has made a very good job of the loco (and the other tank engine I saw), but both are available as RTR models.....

[The Stationmaster]

Agree re comments on the K's 8750 - I've got a box for one somewhere but it contains something different I think - must find the box to see what it is (Wills 94XX possibly?).  In addition 'someone' made an 8750 cab/bunker unit as a whitemetal kit to convert the Mainline 57XX to an 8750 - can't remember who it was but it was quite nice castings, although I think I got rid of mine (still as a kit) some time back when Bachmann did one for themselves.

 

The Westward 54XX was a fairly poor kit - not very good castings on the one I bought (and which quickly back to be exchanged for a 16XX kit) but teh worst thing about it was the whitemetal chassis sideframes which had uneven shrinkage so didn't match each other for axle positions!

[Colin]

Agree re comments on the K's 8750 - I've got a box for one somewhere but it contains something different I think - must find the box to see what it is (Wills 94XX possibly?).  In addition 'someone' made an 8750 cab/bunker unit as a whitemetal kit to convert the Mainline 57XX to an 8750 - can't remember who it was but it was quite nice castings, although I think I got rid of mine (still as a kit) some time back when Bachmann did one for themselves.

 

The Westward 54XX was a fairly poor kit - not very good castings on the one I bought (and which quickly back to be exchanged for a 16XX kit) but teh worst thing about it was the whitemetal chassis sideframes which had uneven shrinkage so didn't match each other for axle positions!

I think the 8750 conversion kit was by M&L (long disappeared AFAIK). I used one on an old Mainline pannier with very good results - shame the loco was such a lousy runner!

 

I had one of the early Ks 57xx locos - it was an 8750 type dating from the 70s, I'm fairly sure that the kit was retooled some time in the early 80s. At that time, either Ks took the opportunity to incorporate alternative cab/bunker parts for the original version or they marketed 2 separate 57xx kits. The retooled versions certainly looked a whole lot better and (IIRC) included etched detail parts.

[Horsetan]

Yes, I have the silver box version and it has both early and late cab parts. Very clean castings. Pity the wheelbase is wrong.

 

M&L produced a late cab conversion kit for the Mainline/Replica 57xx, and this subsequently passed into the control of Alan Gibson via Chris Crawley Models.

 

To muddy the waters further, there was a set of 4mm etches derived from the Vulcan 7mm kit. If you've never come across this, it may be because I've probably got the only set in existence. They were bought direct from Malcolm Mitchell himself.

[Tim V]

What I think happened is that he made contact with the builder (based on the recommendation of someone else), and said 'I'd like a model of a 8750 pannier, please'. It seems that the builder has guided him towards this K's kit solution and not towards the Bachmann RTR version. If so, I simply can't think why, unless it's for rather cynical reasons on the part of the builder? I must emphasise that the builder has made a very good job of the loco (and the other tank engine I saw), but both are available as RTR models.....

I think the person who commissioned a professional loco builder to build a 8750 perhaps didn't exactly specify what they wanted.

 

Suppose that builder scoured the world looking for an obsolete kit so they could build it.

 

If the person who commissioned the pannier had said "convert the Bachman pannier" the outcome would have been different.

[Tim V]

The relevant page from a Ks catalogue of the 70s.

[Hayfield2]

As far as I know (which came from an earlier post) K's built the 57xx later cab version first, and a conversion pack to an earlier version cab was a later introduction. I bought a nearly complete body and wondered who made the kit.

 

What would be interesting to see would be the chassis, has the builder gone for an etched chassis with decent wheels, motor and gears. Or just used what was supplied in the kit.

 

These kits can be made into decent models with just a few additional bits

[Captain Kernow]

I haven't got any photos of the completed locos and wouldn't post any without the owners permission in any case (he's not on the internet), but the builder does appear to have made a good job of the actual assembly. I think I can safely conclude that the 8750 is an old K's kit, but I wasn't aware of what Horse has said about the wheelbase being wrong - not sure why K's would have needed to compromise on that, as they supplied their own chassis back in the day, unlike Wills, where you were expected to use a Triang-Hornby chassis or similar.

 

What is bothering me somewhat is that my friend is relatively inexperienced in terms of knowing the hobby, suppliers, what's available etc. If anyone asked me for a model of an 8750 pannier, my immediate response would be to direct them to the Bachmann one, not dig out a very old whitemetal kit and offer to build it... or am I being unfair? 

[Horsetan]

...I wasn't aware of what Horse has said about the wheelbase being wrong - not sure why K's would have needed to compromise on that, as they supplied their own chassis back in the day, .....

Supplying their own chassis was no guarantee that it was correct! I found that out when trying to put the footplate onto a Perseverance chassis, and finding that the splashers on leading and driving axles needed moving. The same chassis mated perfectly with a Replica body.

[Il Grifone]

Supplying their own chassis was no guarantee that it was correct! I found that out when trying to put the footplate onto a Perseverance chassis, and finding that the splashers on leading and driving axles needed moving. The same chassis mated perfectly with a Replica body.

 

 

You had me worried there, so I measured my 8750 (gorgeous brass chassis) 29mm + 33mm which is correct (7'3" + 8'3")*.

 

*With a steel rule (my vernier caliper is on one of it's periodical walkabouts!), but it won't be that far out. (A Mainline 57xx measured the same as a check).

 

EDIT

Probably irrelevant, but their 97xx body kit was originally intended to fit the Dublo R1 chassis, which is correct for nothing AFAIK* (unless you want an H0 J50 or N2). though later it was supplied as a complete kit.

 

* 6'6" + 7' 9"

[edcayton]

I was about to say that K's did do "bodyline" kits, but I don't know if the 57xx was one

 

Ed

[Il Grifone]

Not the 57xx, but the condenser fitted 97xx variant (IIRC this appeared first). The other two 'Bodyline' kits were a Midland 3F and a J50. All three fitted the Dublo R1 chassis, but in the case of the 3F the Tri-ang chassis would have been better (still not correct, but only 1mm + 1mm out).

[Horsetan]

You had me worried there, so I measured my 8750 (gorgeous brass chassis) 29mm + 33mm which is correct (7'3" + 8'3")*.

 

*With a steel rule (my vernier caliper is on one of it's periodical walkabouts!), but it won't be that far out. (A Mainline 57xx measured the same as a check).

 

EDIT

Probably irrelevant, but their 97xx body kit was originally intended to fit the Dublo R1 chassis, which is correct for nothing AFAIK* (unless you want an H0 J50 or N2). though later it was supplied as a complete kit.

 

* 6'6" + 7' 9"

 

The footplate casting I've got is definitely wrong on the wheelbase, which is a pity because the rivet detail on it is so crisp. K's seem to have been really good at rivets. Proved a real pain-in-the-proverbial to have to saw out the splashers. Laid the kit aside ages ago after the hell of sawing out two splashers, and still haven't decided whether to make plastic replacements to reduce possibility of short-circuits.