The Waverley Route revisited!

[great northern]

OK, as promised, here is a very crude plan, nowhere near to scale, and I haven't attempted to draw the other end of the fiddle yard. Hopefully though, it illustrates what I'm trying to say.

Having done this, and realising the pictures speak louder than words, I ascended to my loft, very rarely visited these days, and took a few photos. They are hand held, so a bit blurry, but I think show what I'm trying to convey.

This was my countryside section, just a double track line, a canal behind, don't ask. and then an eight track fiddle yard. Distance from baseboard edge to furthest fiddle yard track is 35 inches. I've tried reaching across to get my hands in a position to rerail something that has come off. Just about possible, but right on the limit. In the distance you will see one of Barnatt's follies, the extra fiddle yard I added, and the so called access to it. Quite impossible in practice to deal with any problem back there.

A close up of the original fiddle yard, to show where the track was.

And here is the last straw, the low backscene I put up to hide the fiddle yard. Reaching over that compounds the problem of geting to the rear tracks, but imagine trying to get to the one immediately behind the scenic break.

Apologies for the poor quality, but this is here to show how easy it can be to get carried away. In the foreground was my engine shed. Originally the baseboard ended where that little red post thingy is, but then I added an extension to make the shed "better". 49 inches now to the rear running lines. Could I reach them to deal with problems, or even routine maintenance, track cleaning? Could I ******.

 

So, Peter, lower your sights somewhat - it will pay off a thousand fold in the long run. Hidden fiddle yards are a nightmare, however well your track is laid. That track needs to be kept clean too, apart from things falling off.

Let's not be completely negative - this is what can be done with a lovely long scenic side. Just don't try putting too much behind that backscene though.

[bigwordsmith]

Far from negative Gilbert, and I may have come up with an answer...

 

 

This allows me to have the flexibility to run an intensive schedule - 6 storage loops, 8 platforms at Waverley, plus a goods shed, and the country station option on the other side, as well as preserving the shed, and keeping access to the loops practical

 

On another note, I was digging through old pics and found these awful ones of Abbotsmead with my then 3 year old daughter looking over them - as she's now 31 that makes it 28 years ago when (a) photography was poor, and (b) scenic modelling wasn't a patch on what it is today. It's interesting to see the track work and doesn't take long to guess where the inspiration came from

 

[great northern]

Sorry Peter, but it still doesn't convince me. You still have to reach over to access the fiddle yard, and it has only six roads. You aren't going to be able to store much in there, and I think you will find that to run anything like a representative selection of the trains that were seen at Waverley, you will need a lot more than that. I still think you are trying to get too much in too. It is going to take quite a time for any train to traverse the whole layout at scale speed, so you don't need more complication.

 

8 platforms at Waverley will take some operating without any other consideration, so I'm willing to bet that the shed will in practice just sit there looking pretty, and taking up space that could be better employed.

 

You are back to having a crucial junction hidden under Calton tunnel too, which is almost guaranteed to cause problems.

[islandbridgejct]

Peter, I found your thread after reading your posts on Peterborough, which I think makes me an online stalker - sorry about that.

 

This is a fascinating exercise in layout planning.

 

Could I offer a variation on Gilbert's suggestion? Mr Google says the distance from Calton Hill Tunnel to the end of the overall roof is less than 280m. That's 4m in OO, so you'll have lots of lovely shed roof under which, as Gilbert says, you will see nothing (have you seen what Jim Smith Wright has done?) and you'll only need < 6m at the right for your station and curves. There'll be big gaps between the tracks going into the trainshed where the platforms are, but you won't be able to see the platforms and you won't need to model them. So forget the platforms and plant stub end fiddle tracks there instead. You can run out of Waverley, round your loop and into a fiddle siding which is actually back in Waverley, but hidden out of sight, and not poking out the front end of the station. You've plenty of room there for a 12 coach train, and you can either put a crossover at the end of your siding for engine release, or back a different engine on the train and run it back to Waverley.

 

That eliminates the need for the fiddle yard to take up almost any space at all. If you take Gilbert's advice and have a scenic break at the bridge, you can fit all of this in the open.

 

(In fact, you could almost do the same thing at the other end and model King's Cross the same way (210m -> 3m in OO) - but not quite: I checked and you'd need at least 14m / 45ft for that.)

 

So if you sort it out that way, fiddle on the left, interleaved with Waverley on the right, you could put your shed on the right end wall, with a stiff gradient up to it - locos on their own should handle that, and you still have your bottom wall free for the scenic section. (You could even build Little Bytham, Grantham, or Peterborough there, but that would be getting carried away.)

 

I'll be following with interest to see what you decide on. Best wishes.

 

Alan

[bigwordsmith]

Alan, many thanks for this - very thought provoking. I've not seen what Jim Smith Wright has done - do you have a link?

 

It's an interesting idea and I hadn't given it any thought, but it could solve all the problems. I'll have allay and see what emerges!

 

I'm waiting for some pics from one of the other members of Waverely's east end but the ability to move it along and hide the fiddle yard under a false station roof is a fascinating thought.

 

TX

 

Peter

[johndon]

Alan, many thanks for this - very thought provoking. I've not seen what Jim Smith Wright has done - do you have a link?

 

http://www.p4newstreet.com/

 

John

[bigwordsmith]

Ah Gilbert don't go into full reverse! Informed debate is what makes this forum work, and I welcome all opinions. Rest assured that whatever I end up with will be a distillation of everyone's input and an interpretation of my preferences!

 

I think it's important to remember what one looks for in a layout. IN your case scenic accuracy and a timetable that represents a day in the life of a real ECML station sit at the top of the list. Mine is not so well defined. I enjoy the making and engineering side and get a huge amount of satisfaction from watching a realistic looking train threading it's way through the intricate point work I spent ages laying and wiring,

 

I suppose I'm less into the idea of an intensive service - I recall when Tim and I had occasional running days at Abbotsmead they were usually accompanied by much considered smoking of pipes, gentle discussion about the merits of different locos, both in 12" and 1:76 scale, and as often as not a pint of something cool and refreshing. despite having an 8-road station with fiddle yard, loco shed and a good country route at our disposal, not to mention a decent chunk of mainline, our operational pace was more in line with the bucolic practices of a sleepy branch line.

 

However, what mattered was that when we had visitors, we could put on quite a show, and even give the guests something to do upon the branch station, safely out of harm's way!

 

As I'm planning this to be a moderately sociable place - at least two of my neighbours who are also heading onto the final lap job-wise are looking forward to contributing - probably in the form of fine Sussex Ale -  operations are actually not that critical. SO in that respect I hear and agree with what you're saying, and no doubt when it comes to the actual line much of your comment will be subconsciously incorporated!

 

As I mentioned earlier, it was a sobering moment when I planted the shed there to see just how much space it took up, and even now with so muh clutter on top of the other desks around the room I can;t really get a fair idea of how practical it is to do everything else. Theboss has just thrown another small spanner int he works by suggesting I should cover the floor with vinyl to stop irrevocable staining of the chipboard surface from ballast falls etc., so no doubt that will add another delay!

 

I was planning to tweak the plan a wee bit anyway so will pop that up in the very near.

 

ATB
Peter

@johndon

 

Thanks for the link

 

I think I'll just go off and crawl into a darkened space feeling very, very humble.

[islandbridgejct]

@johndon

 

Thanks for the link

 

I think I'll just go off and crawl into a darkened space feeling very, very humble.

 Just be careful - there's a lot of us in that darkened, humble space already.

 

Alan

[bigwordsmith]

Just had a go at laying out the proposed throat for Waverley and It's nearly 8' long!

 

I also discovered that I have an awful lot of 'wrong' points, so if anyone is looking for some unused Code 100 live frogs then I might be able to help!

[Waverley West]

In my experience, Peter, whatever points you have to hand are capable of changing to the "wrong" type depending on what you need at the time. I have a similar surplus of a mixed bag of Code 75 points!

 

Also, if you decide to order some more, by the time they have arrived, you will have changed your mind about the track layout and no longer need them.

 

Maybe it's just me though. 

 

Dave

[bigwordsmith]

Actually Dave, I suspect it's a universal thing

 

Probably we should coin it as modeller's law - "it doesn't matter how many points you've ordered in anticipation, you'll always be missing at least two critical points to finish the junction"

[bigwordsmith]

OK folks, latest update...

 

I've laid out the tracks for the throat very roughly, and it takes up a whole 8' x 3' board, TBH it could do with another foot for scenic purposes so the width will end up at 4' which is actually slightly smaller than my sale plan!

 

Here's what it would look like - obviously a lot prettier - from North Bridge

 

 

and here it is from top of Calton Hill ( Jacob's Ladder) scene for so many shots of the station and the bit I'm trying hardest to recreate

 

 

Sp, all feedback now taken on board, and following yesterday's 'laying it out on the board for real' exercise, I've now amended the plan as follows:

 

 

The yellow 'blob' is the station roof, which as Alan suggested allows me to create 3 roads that can act as termini/fiddle yard from the Western approach, and still be fed from the East through all that lovely flowing point work. I've also just noticed that it needs to come about a foot further to the right. 

 

I've also eliminated the idea of a concentrated fiddle yard by adding loops at strategic places. These give me a single loop off the 'ECML' line going 'Up' from the North tunnel at Waverely, which I may be able to double up when we're there in reality, plus another off the country station by pass line. In fact the layout  is orientated 180 degrees from the real thing, but if I use 'North and South' as applied to the prototype that should hopefully be clearer.

 

Including the three roads under the station roof that gives me storage for 6 trains.  Add on a couple jogging around the mains, two stored in the country station and four in Waverley itself, which has 8 platform faces, and you have a total capacity of 14 trains  on the layout.

 

I've not worked out where to add in a cassette, but no doubt something will present itself - it may be around the goods shed area at the main station.

 

I've also squeezed in the Engine Shed (surprise surprise) which now sits in front of the tracks coming out of Calton HIll - a bit like a compressed version of St. Margarets.

 

The loops are underneath scenery, but my plan is to use polystyrene mountains which can be easily lifted off to provide access in the case of rescue/ maintenance being required.

 

It gives me the ability to just play trains, watch the world go, by or do some serious running with loco swaps, shed shunts and so on, as the fancy takes me.

 

Mind you, when I woke up at 06.00 this mooning my mind was filled with thoughts of how the 'eck I'm going to handle the wiring/switching for all those double slips and reverse polarities on the throat. Back at Abbotsmead my father spent ages wiring up a series of 12 pole DPDT Post Office switches to allow you to set a route by moving a single switch. Almost all of them worked, but I never to this day understood how he did it.

 

Any suggestions on how to manage a junction of that complexity would be welcome. Just to add another layer of challenge, It's all electrofrog!

 

Heigh Ho, all the fun of modelling,and I've not even got a floor covering down yet!

 

Peter

Edited October 22, 2014 by bigwordsmith

[bigwordsmith]

I really must stop playing with points!

 

So I looked at the ics from yesterday and realised I'm still two flying crossovers short

 

I've got one of them in in this pic,

but am still missing one from what will be platforms 4 & 5 on my line to the up slow lines

 

Heaven knows how I'll get them in - it already uses 35 pieces of point work and the additional crossing needs a pair of double slips plus 2 more pairs of points!

 

I suspect the throat will now take up nearly 12 feet - almost the entire scale length of the space!

 

Don't suppose I'll sleep much tonight trying to work out how to wire that lot up!

 

Maybe I should have just gone for a simple  roundy-roundy in '0' gauge

 

Gilbert - please don't say "I told you so" because I know you have done several times :-)

[bigwordsmith]

Progress report

 

THis weekend was a landmark - otherwise known as 'Having an almighty clearup'

 

Our son came down and took away all the furniture, boxes, spare carpets garden tables cookers, etc. that we have been keeping for him for all these years as he is now moving into his new home, which led me to spend Saturday clearing up the garage to make it fit for Mrs. S to park in once again, and in return I got to spend Sunday in the loft doing much the same kind of thing!

 

As part of the 'tidying up' I took the opportunity to move the shed layout around a few times - not as easy as it might sound, and realised that by angling it over and doing a little simplification I can realistically achieve all the aims for the new layout and still keep five year's worth of layout building!

So new plan below...

 

 

I also took the opportunity this morning to shoot some pics of the space . THis one shows the Shed in its new home - the mess behind it is about 10 sheets of plywood split variously into 3' 2' and 1' widths which will make up the layout deck. I reckon I can get the main lines, which will be hidden, onto a 4' - 5' radius curve at this point.

 

 

 

THis is looking back down the room from the shed end - as you can see I've been able to recycle old carpet and undesired rugs from the past.

 

 

I also moved one of the curved desks around which has given me a small workspace for modelling with lots of natural light from the windows and Velux's 

 

 

And these show all the layout elements still boxed but now organised into stock,

 

 

Scenery and trackwork

 

 

plus of course all the railway books that have now been exiled from the guest bedroom!

 

 

SO now the real fun starts.....

 

 

Edited November 3, 2014 by bigwordsmith

[bigwordsmith]

OK a busy day at work deserves an hour's play!

 

So I managed to get the Shed back into some kind of running order - no scenery as we still have a lot of work to do around it building a new railway, but I have managed to check out much of the track work, and much of it still works, although the turntable is proving a bit iffy!

 

I found a couple of dry solder joints and some broken wires from the move, but have managed to patch most of it up, and of course needed a loco, so decided to grab the first one that came to hand.

 

I know this is an LNER shed, but the first loco - i.e. the most recent arrival turned out to be the Ex-Tetleys Mills Black 5, so she was the first loco to try out her new home

 

 

I'm pleased to report that running is very smooth -- one or two squeaks and doesn't like my reverse curve, but that's the same as the Peppercorns, and I suspect a function of six-coupled fine scale wheels.

 

Next up was my other ex-Tetleys Mills loco A1 Kestrel, also coming to a new home and not much liking the point work, especially when the tender was on close coupled setting!

 

 

I've parked them both and had to rely not he iPhone flash which does suggest I need to sort out the LED strips over the line to give some decent lighting rather than rely on the Downlighters and.or daylight

 

Anyway a bit more fettling to do and particularly sort out the turntable, then the work on the 'Big Railway' can start

 

 

[Donington Road]

OK a busy day at work deserves an hour's play!

 

So I managed to get the Shed back into some kind of running order - no scenery as we still have a lot of work to do around it building a new railway, but I have managed to check out much of the track work, and much of it still works, although the turntable is proving a bit iffy!

 

I found a couple of dry solder joints and some broken wires from the move, but have managed to patch most of it up, and of course needed a loco, so decided to grab the first one that came to hand.

 

I know this is an LNER shed, but the first loco - i.e. the most recent arrival turned out to be the Ex-Tetleys Mills Black 5, so she was the first loco to try out her new home

 

IMG_1213.jpg

 

I'm pleased to report that running is very smooth -- one or two squeaks and doesn't like my reverse curve, but that's the same as the Peppercorns, and I suspect a function of six-coupled fine scale wheels.

 

Next up was my other ex-Tetleys Mills loco A1 Kestrel, also coming to a new home and not much liking the point work, especially when the tender was on close coupled setting!

 

IMG_1210.jpg

 

I've parked them both and had to rely not he iPhone flash which does suggest I need to sort out the LED strips over the line to give some decent lighting rather than rely on the Downlighters and.or daylight

 

Anyway a bit more fettling to do and particularly sort out the turntable, then the work on the 'Big Railway' can start

 

Locos on shed and nowhere to go

Time to get cracking on with the rest of the layout

[Memphis32]

Any progress on the planning?

[Danim]

Wonderful layout you have, its giving me ideas for my own layout

since you asked across on Dave's topic for Waverley West about photos of the east side of the station here's some I took a couple of weeks ago

 

https://www.flickr.c...07/15659198586/

https://www.flickr.c...07/15684511222/

https://www.flickr.c...07/15682912955/

https://www.flickr.c...007/15684496912

https://www.flickr.c...007/14898908352

https://www.flickr.c...007/14712674968

 and a shot of the outer platform

https://www.flickr.c...157644737938996

 

If you need any more I am going through to Waverley tommorow so just ask what sort of shots you are after and I will try to get them

Edited November 23, 2014 by Danim

[bigwordsmith]

OK I Know it's been as quiet as a crypt - hopefullyt you could all hear the quiet sound of cogs turning as I sat in the loft considering, and sipping the odd we dram, and considering some more.

 

So AS I was thinking my mental conversation was nudged by a comment on Mr. Duck's thread saying something to the effect of ' I always remember that in Pendon the railway is almost incidental to the scenery' which made me think - 'What;s the first thing you do when you get to build a railway in a big room?' Of course the answer is 'YOu build a big railway'

 

So all the plans you've seen have squeezed everything imaginable  into my , admittedly large, space, but I couldn't help thinking, especially on the third dram with Jools Holland's new album playing on the SoundDock, that maybe I was moving too far away from my whole original concept - i.e. to replicate the simplicity of the Waverley Route.

 

So, a few days research and much cogitation came up with this wholly new idea.

 

It does away with a proper terminus and builds on Galashiels by adding a couple of platforms and squeezing it's length to get it into the space - to do it to scale I'd need double my room. Then It takes the idea of having a line to the Peebles branch which disappears off into a tunnel, but in fact is a front for an 8-train fiddle yard, which is achieved by having a second ladder one third of the way down, allowing for one long and one short train in each road.

 

The fiddle yard, which will sit under a removable polystyrene mountain for easy access is fully reversible - after all the Waverley Route had loads of facing crossovers so I can do this,

 

Branch line traffic can either use the mainline or the fiddle yard which will feed both the branch station and the main line, which in the meantime had been meandering gently through rocky hillsides / cuttings.

 

 

I know it doesn't give e the volume of trains I had wished for, so I'm going to need to find a way of cosseting some bits, but it does let me run long trains and big locos as a round round, plus end-to-end branchlike/ goods work.

 

The goods yards at both stations need some work, but I think this could be a good direction to follow - sort of 'less is more' ?

 

What do you think chaps?

[great northern]

What do I think Peter? I'm absolutely delighted! Yes, what happened to you happens I reckon to just about everyone who is suddenly given a great big room to play with. As you say, there is this huge desire to fill it, which is counterproductive on several levels. Increased complexity = extra building work, extra maintenance, operating difficulties when on one's own, and more, all of which have resulted in many grand plans being abandoned through disillusionment.

 

What you now have is a basis for something realistic and achievable, and which can be made to portray the wildness and remoteness of the Waverley route, and which you can operate single handed. It needs a bit of fettling, but of course this is only a first draft anyway. That fiddle yard is still a bit anaemic, but if you design in a nice accessible cassette spur, I can suggest how you can have more for less, and save money too! As designed, you lose one road of the fiddle yard, or part of it at least, to get trains from Galashiels into the terminus. Anyway, as I say, I'm delighted, and relieved too, as I could see so many pitfalls in the original concept.

[bigwordsmith]

Gilbert - Inspirational idea - I hadn't thought of fitting the fiddle yard with a cassette road, but that solves a number of problems. I'd love to hear more about how you think we should make this work.

 

Thanks for bearing with and gently pointing my thoughts in the right direction!

 

I suppose all the discussions we've had, and the input of the other wiser heads from whom I am so fortunate to be able to learn, has all filtered through and informed my thinking.

 

It just seemed that every time I sat up int he loft and looked at the Waverley Shed layout - of which I remain very proud, I found myself struggling with how the whole things going to look. I think what you;ve don at PN, what Tony has achieved at Little Bytham, Grantham and of course Tetleys, all their ways echoed that same impact that  Pendon, and indeed anything with Allan Downes' influence, so I just decided to throw out all the preconceptions and see what came back in.

 

Now I have the second challenge - what to do with the shed layout!

 

I know the turntable will get re-used ,and the point motors.

 

Well I'd have had to reswitch the whole thing anyway.

 

Thank heavens I've only knocked a few bits of 2x1 together!

 

ATB

 

Peter

[bigwordsmith]

Ok everyone- version 2 of Galashiels - Peebles

 

I've rethought the fiddle yard which now runs the entire length of the North Wall and gives me 9 roads by judicious use of circuit breaks - I know Gilbert is going to be very concerned about the risk of crashes ( he's not the only one) but I'm fairly sure it can be managed with careful driving and electrics - not to mention the judicious use of webcams !

 

 

Apart from that I've tidied up both stations to give  better balance of loco facilities and goods.

 

The dotted nline at the bottom of Galashiels station represents a piece of torn up trackbed, which incidentally will just happen to accept a cassette! I deecided overnight that the Hand of God is going to appear somewhere, so why not!

 

Does anyone know if I can change the name of this thread or should I start a new one - after all the shed layout is destined for Messrs Cashmores so The name ins longer appropriate.....

[Anotheran]

Hi Peter,

 

Very much like the look of the latest plan and looking forward to it all coming together.

 

To change the title of the thread go to the first post, click edit, then use full editor. The thread title is then available as an editable field.

 

Kind regards, Neil

[bigwordsmith]

Thanks Neil - I've made the change!

 

After listening to the sage advice of someone I greatly respect over on the Peterborough North Forum, (Yes Gilbert that is you!) I've been looking at how to incorporate a facility for loading/unloading cassettes and have come up with a hybrid as per this latest plan.

 

 

The bright green bits build onto the sidings that were in the original Galashiels layout and turns them into carriage sidings to allow for stock to lay up.

 

I've also now added a shunting road that runs alongside the tracks to allow for making up trains with a Jxx of some sort, or even a wee tender engine, which will allow me to put a cassette onto the layout to hook up with the bottom storage siding.

 

I've also re-designed the lengthy fiddle yard that is shown with a green outline over it to depict the polystyrene ( i.e. removable) scenery- This now has two sets of five roads  and is reversible, so the idea is that you can actually store eight long strains, plus four short ones and have a free road running right through the middle.

 

So I'm back up to being able to hold close to twenty trains on the line, as well as have lots of shunting capability , yet still be able to set an A2 or even a Peak, onto the 'Waverley' and let it thunder round with 8-up.

 

However that won't be happening for a while - I went down to Bath yesterday to see a world-leading knee surgeon who is only one of three in the UK that does bionic kneecaps, and am now booked in for a procedure on the 16th December.

 

He told me that after about 6 months I'll be so agile I'll be doing Golf, Swimming, country walks and even ballroom dancing. My reply was that if a bionic knee can teach me that lot then fit it NOW!

 

However 'll be a bit Hoppalong Cassidy for a few weeks, which means no stair climbs and the Waverley Loft will slumber peacefully.

 

Well at least that's what I told the Mother-in-Law who decided that they'd better not come to stay over Christmas after all...( ahhh!)

 

Result!

[great northern]

So, Peebles has now become Hawick!  Well, that will give you something to do during your period of enforced idleness, Peter. A quick call to PDK to order one of their lovely D30 kits, and days or weeks of pleasure turning it into one of the Hawick regulars. Plenty of gorgeous and quirky names to choose from, but I couldn't help but notice that 62440 was a Hawick engine. That's Wandering Willie, to save you looking it up.   Seriously, the Waverley was synonomous with these lovely little engines.

 

My cassette system is designed to butt onto the fiddle yard, which gives the maximum of flexibilty of working, but as you aren't as bothered as I am about sequences and so forth, your  suggested placement would be fine. You could however put the cassette aperture into that length of track which connects the two portions of the fiddle yard. That really would allow for flexible working.

 

This is looking good now Peter, maybe just a few more tweaks, and of course there was a loco depot at Hawick too..... and a rather large viaduct.