For those interested in old cars.

[PatB]

I must admit to watching prices for modest 1950s classics with some interest, both here in the Antipodes and in the UK. Indeed, I'd already seen that Y advertised (not 50s, I know, but I cast my search terms quite wide). Reason being, I'm engaging in the purely theoretical exercise of seeing what I'd would take to obtain, ideally, a Morris Minor - but other, similar cars would serve - and prepare and equip it to drive some of the 1950s "bomb" roads of Central Australia.

 

Something of an ambitious project, as the roads in question are more usually traversed by groups of big 4wds, carrying all the comforts of home. Blame watching too many YouTube videos of MCC trials for making me look to see how Oz could offer a similar challenge. Then I started looking at YouTubes posted by said 4wd owners, and thought to myself that most of the main tracks (when in good condition; they do vary by season and traffic) don't exhibit much that would irrevocably stop a light, well equipped 2wd with reasonable ground clearance. Hmm. I've been looking for one last great automotive adventure. Maybe I can find it on my own doorstep. It does rather depend on Moggy values not going stratospheric before I can get around to obtaining one though. 

[alastairq]

5 hours ago, PatB said:

I must admit to watching prices for modest 1950s classics with some interest, both here in the Antipodes and in the UK. Indeed, I'd already seen that Y advertised (not 50s, I know, but I cast my search terms quite wide). Reason being, I'm engaging in the purely theoretical exercise of seeing what I'd would take to obtain, ideally, a Morris Minor - but other, similar cars would serve - and prepare and equip it to drive some of the 1950s "bomb" roads of Central Australia.

 

Something of an ambitious project, as the roads in question are more usually traversed by groups of big 4wds, carrying all the comforts of home. Blame watching too many YouTube videos of MCC trials for making me look to see how Oz could offer a similar challenge. Then I started looking at YouTubes posted by said 4wd owners, and thought to myself that most of the main tracks (when in good condition; they do vary by season and traffic) don't exhibit much that would irrevocably stop a light, well equipped 2wd with reasonable ground clearance. Hmm. I've been looking for one last great automotive adventure. Maybe I can find it on my own doorstep. It does rather depend on Moggy values not going stratospheric before I can get around to obtaining one though. 

  If you haven't already got a copy, may I suggest buying/halfinching a copy of the book

''How to build a successful Low-cost rally car'', by Philip Young?

It's in the speedpro series of books.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Build-Low-cost-Rally-Car/dp/1845842081

 

I don't know if amazon gets to Australia, but there must be book retailers who sell these books?

 

Anyway, reason why I mention it is, one of the cars used as an example of preparation is a Morris Minor.

I don't know a reet lot about Moggie Minors in detail [I only ever had two]....but I do know the half shafts aren't very strong [there are uprated versions available], and my long ago experience with them [when they were bangers] was that the ''forward stabilisers'', the bars that pass between the lower front suspension, and the chassis, in a forward direction.......have a habit of punching their way through the chassis legs [a common fault back in the  day] due mainly to rot and exuberance. So given that, I would be stripping those bits down and plating the chassis legs to a thicker level, as a precaution?

Anyway, preparation is key for these sorts of escapades....I know, I used to go trialling in a Skoda, amongst other things...and the only time I've been really let down was due to faulty preparation.

[alastairq]

https://www.amazon.com.au/How-Build-Successful-Low-Cost-Rally-ebook/dp/B018IRF04C/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=How+to+Build+a+Low-cost+Rally+Car%3A+Philip+Young&qid=1621802911&s=books&sr=1-1

 

 

Any use??

[PatB]

9 hours ago, alastairq said:

  If you haven't already got a copy, may I suggest buying/halfinching a copy of the book

''How to build a successful Low-cost rally car'', by Philip Young?

It's in the speedpro series of books.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Build-Low-cost-Rally-Car/dp/1845842081

 

I don't know if amazon gets to Australia, but there must be book retailers who sell these books?

 

Anyway, reason why I mention it is, one of the cars used as an example of preparation is a Morris Minor.

I don't know a reet lot about Moggie Minors in detail [I only ever had two]....but I do know the half shafts aren't very strong [there are uprated versions available], and my long ago experience with them [when they were bangers] was that the ''forward stabilisers'', the bars that pass between the lower front suspension, and the chassis, in a forward direction.......have a habit of punching their way through the chassis legs [a common fault back in the  day] due mainly to rot and exuberance. So given that, I would be stripping those bits down and plating the chassis legs to a thicker level, as a precaution?

Anyway, preparation is key for these sorts of escapades....I know, I used to go trialling in a Skoda, amongst other things...and the only time I've been really let down was due to faulty preparation.

Thanks for the tip. Amazon won't ship a hard copy to Oz from the UK, but I was able to find a used copy that would ship from the US, so all good there. 

 

As I mentioned, this is currently a purely theoretical exercise, but a fairly detailed one, as is my wont. I'd already added a half shaft and possibly a diff centre to my mental list of spares to be carried. The need to beef up suspension mountings had also crossed my mind. The main enemy of vehicle longevity on outback tracks are corrugations, which I can see hammering the running gear of a vehicle carrying the sort of load that would be necessary. It's seriously remote out there, so just the fuel and water requirements add up, before even considering camping gear, food, recovery equipment, tools and spares. It's doable, though. Many of the problems the usual 4wds encounter are, at least in part, self created by being such huge, heavy rigs. 4 Tonnes gross weight is by no means unusual, much of which is made up of the equipment required to extract a 4T vehicle from a bog. The law of diminishing returns was never so apt. 

[alastairq]

2 hours ago, PatB said:

Thanks for the tip. Amazon won't ship a hard copy to Oz from the UK, but I was able to find a used copy that would ship from the US, so all good there. 

 I found the link to Amazon Australia in my second post on this subject.

 

I re-read the book {briefly} last night, and found it interesting and thought provoking.

 

Whilst many similar books will bang on about the bar-bragging rights and bhpeees, etc,  few will list the more important preparations.  That's the thing about trialling!  It doesn't really matter what power output one's engine has, if the rest if the car falls apart on a rocky section?  

Interesting observations regarding inner tubes and radial tyres.....mentioning the 'ribs' that are often found inside a radial tyre, and how they can chafe through an inner tube? [Suggests sanding down the ribs inside the carcass before fitting?]

Steel wheels are essential....if one can get  at least 6, then the Rostyles from the later Midgets are strongest, by all accounts.

Tyres are important too....the book suggests reinforced tyres rather than van tyres, due to the [one less?] ply numbers...and full 80 aspect ratios, not low profiles....since we can no longer get Kingpin remoulds here in the UK, then narrow, van tyres might be  the next option?

Notice the emphasis is not on speed performance, or grip in mud, or any other broohahah characteristic, but on the tyre's ability to survive, full stop. Narrow treads, deep treads, strong sidewalls, all add to resistance to punctures.

 

All that apparently inconsequential stuff that ensures the car's survivability.  No good having 100 bhp engine if the suspension or fuel tank can get ripped off?

I foresee lots of welding being done? [Engine mounts might need chaining up too??]

Either way, a Morris Minor will be far from 'original' by the time one makes it able to survive such journeys?

 

As will any vehicle available off the shelf?

 

[Small electric winch might be a good tool to have, bolted to the front bumper, which will be reinforced, eh?]

 

Some time ago , I spotted an [old?] Moskvich estate, which the owner had equipped with a front bumper winch. It belonged to one of the Raynet guys, and these fellas need to access some pretty out-of-the-way places? [They provide radio communications for events like trials and rallies, where mobile signals are not available]. The Moskvich was designed & built to cope with the rugged out-of-town roads in Russia, so came as standard with excellent ground clearance, full profile tyres, stout suspension, etc.  all stuff no self respecting modern new car buyer would even consider looking for? [Why bother, go for a gucci SUV or whatever they're called these days?}

But, it was a car, not an expensive pseudo-rugged 4x4.  [IMHO, the only 4x4s that don' fall apart at some point were the UMM Alters?]

The only giveaway as to it's occasional usage was the winch!

 

[Nick C]

12 hours ago, alastairq said:

  If you haven't already got a copy, may I suggest buying/halfinching a copy of the book

''How to build a successful Low-cost rally car'', by Philip Young?

It's in the speedpro series of books.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Build-Low-cost-Rally-Car/dp/1845842081

 

I don't know if amazon gets to Australia, but there must be book retailers who sell these books?

 

Anyway, reason why I mention it is, one of the cars used as an example of preparation is a Morris Minor.

I don't know a reet lot about Moggie Minors in detail [I only ever had two]....but I do know the half shafts aren't very strong [there are uprated versions available], and my long ago experience with them [when they were bangers] was that the ''forward stabilisers'', the bars that pass between the lower front suspension, and the chassis, in a forward direction.......have a habit of punching their way through the chassis legs [a common fault back in the  day] due mainly to rot and exuberance. So given that, I would be stripping those bits down and plating the chassis legs to a thicker level, as a precaution?

Anyway, preparation is key for these sorts of escapades....I know, I used to go trialling in a Skoda, amongst other things...and the only time I've been really let down was due to faulty preparation.

I met the late Mr Young a few times - a somewhat interesting character, who certainly knew what he was talking about when it came to long-distance rallies. I took the photo used to illustate the CityRover in the projects section of that book...

[PatB]

20 hours ago, alastairq said:

 I found the link to Amazon Australia in my second post on this subject.

 

I re-read the book {briefly} last night, and found it interesting and thought provoking.

 

Whilst many similar books will bang on about the bar-bragging rights and bhpeees, etc,  few will list the more important preparations.  That's the thing about trialling!  It doesn't really matter what power output one's engine has, if the rest if the car falls apart on a rocky section?  

Interesting observations regarding inner tubes and radial tyres.....mentioning the 'ribs' that are often found inside a radial tyre, and how they can chafe through an inner tube? [Suggests sanding down the ribs inside the carcass before fitting?]

Steel wheels are essential....if one can get  at least 6, then the Rostyles from the later Midgets are strongest, by all accounts.

Tyres are important too....the book suggests reinforced tyres rather than van tyres, due to the [one less?] ply numbers...and full 80 aspect ratios, not low profiles....since we can no longer get Kingpin remoulds here in the UK, then narrow, van tyres might be  the next option?

Notice the emphasis is not on speed performance, or grip in mud, or any other broohahah characteristic, but on the tyre's ability to survive, full stop. Narrow treads, deep treads, strong sidewalls, all add to resistance to punctures.

 

All that apparently inconsequential stuff that ensures the car's survivability.  No good having 100 bhp engine if the suspension or fuel tank can get ripped off?

I foresee lots of welding being done? [Engine mounts might need chaining up too??]

Either way, a Morris Minor will be far from 'original' by the time one makes it able to survive such journeys?

 

As will any vehicle available off the shelf?

 

[Small electric winch might be a good tool to have, bolted to the front bumper, which will be reinforced, eh?]

 

Some time ago , I spotted an [old?] Moskvich estate, which the owner had equipped with a front bumper winch. It belonged to one of the Raynet guys, and these fellas need to access some pretty out-of-the-way places? [They provide radio communications for events like trials and rallies, where mobile signals are not available]. The Moskvich was designed & built to cope with the rugged out-of-town roads in Russia, so came as standard with excellent ground clearance, full profile tyres, stout suspension, etc.  all stuff no self respecting modern new car buyer would even consider looking for? [Why bother, go for a gucci SUV or whatever they're called these days?}

But, it was a car, not an expensive pseudo-rugged 4x4.  [IMHO, the only 4x4s that don' fall apart at some point were the UMM Alters?]

The only giveaway as to it's occasional usage was the winch!

 

I agree that some modification will be inevitable, although my thought would be to keep things as close to standard as possible, and, where practical, keep mods to those in keeping with the car, so, eg, no fancy electronics. Beefed up suspension and engine mountings would be likely, and sump and fuel tank guards a must. I can see tele shocks being an advantage. I doubt if lever arms would survive corrugations for long. OTOH, I wouldn't envisage any engine/performance mods, beyond serious air filtration and making sure no breathers were open to atmosphere. The red dust gets everywhere and is highly abrasive.

 

The go-to steel wheels for Minors here are the Wolseley 1500 type, as found on local market Morris Majors/Austin Lancers. They're still 14" but the rim width is such that commonly available light truck tyres will go on safely. I've heard about the ribs in tubeless tyres wearing through tubes but haven't actually had it happen in road use on motorcycles or cars. It may be different on unsealed surfaces where the tyres are constantly working. The biggest enemy of tyres in the outback is the sharp (and iron hard) stick or stump, lying in wait to stake you. A lesser, but still present risk in some areas are patches of road "repaired" with razor sharp rock crushings from a local mine. These can slice up a road tyre very nicely, as I discovered a few years back when I lost 2 tyres in 200 m and ended up having to drive 80 km into town on three tyres and a decidedly thruppenny bit shaped rim.

 

I've considered a winch but, given the siting (I can't see where it would go that won't either reduce ground clearance or interrupt airflow to the rad), mounting and electrical issues make me lean more towards a self-contained hand type like a Tirfor, or even relying on the winching ability of the obligatory h-lift jack. The jack approach appeals as, with such a small vehicle, it makes sense for as much equipment as possible to serve multiple purposes. I would not envisage being on any kind of deadline, so if it were to take a day or two to traverse a difficult section it wouldn't matter that much.

 

There is much further research to be done, which is, of course, far cheaper, easier and more comfortable than actually doing it. For example, I need to find out how old, carburetted engines run on Opal fuel. Opal was introduced into outback Oz to counter a petrol sniffing epidemic in remote communities. Whilst I'm not 100% sure what's in it, I assume it's made unsniffable by a reduction in the more volatile fractions. No problem in an EFI system, where the injectors do a pretty good job of atomisation straight into a hot cylinder, but will it work through the jet of an SU and a relatively convoluted inlet tract? I don't know, but the answer has significant implications for fuel management.

 

Anyhow, the whole thing should keep me happily mentally occupied for a while yet.

[PhilJ W]

You are aware that the Morris Major/Austin Lancer shares a floor pan with the Morris Minor? Any suspension or mechanical parts from those models should be a bolt on to a Minor. 

[PatB]

1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

You are aware that the Morris Major/Austin Lancer shares a floor pan with the Morris Minor? Any suspension or mechanical parts from those models should be a bolt on to a Minor. 

Indeed I am, and, were I to ever actually do this, a Major or Lancer would be potential candidates too, if a suitable base vehicle came along at the right time and price. My main concern with either would be B-Series fuel consumption. The need to be self-sufficient in fuel over long distances favours the Minor's smaller power unit. Realistically, the most useful aspect of their mechanical similarity would be the ability to use Minor upgrade parts (tele shock conversions spring to mind) on a Major. Mind you, I'd expect the Major back axle to be tougher than the Minor's, and I also know that a number of Majors have donated their brakes to Minors. 

[PhilJ W]

[Northmoor]

14 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

This reminds me that my regular garage, in amongst all the usual family cars being serviced/MOT'd, has had an E-type (stripped to the bare bones and in primer) up on the ramps, on and off, for over two years.  I asked the proprietor recently if he was charging the owner a storage fee; he wasn't but it sounded like for the owner, it wouldn't have been a problem.

[PhilJ W]

15 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/crumpled-wreck-jaguar-hidden-garage-20678463

[peanuts]

What the actual ?

[MrWolf]

When you realise that your radical rat rod project will never pass an engineer's report and you need to offload it before the wife finds out how much money you wasted.

There's a reason why people use vintage parts for such things and it's not just looks, it's grandfather rules.

Also, our American cousins have a much broader brush when it comes to construction and use regulations.

[alastairq]

What I'd like to know is, why do folk feel the urge to drive a ''head-turner?''

 

Surely in this day & age, keeping a low profile is better?

[MrWolf]

I suspect that it is a similar need for affirmation of your existence to the person who has a total wig out if they get no likes to a post on social media.

I find that if you are waiting to pull out of a junction in the most ordinary of classic cars, someone will wave you through just to have a look at it. 

Be in the same situation in a new £100000 sports car and people make a point of ignoring you!

[alastairq]

2 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I find that if you are waiting to pull out of a junction in the most ordinary of classic cars, someone will wave you through just to have a look at it. 

 Now, that is something that I dislike! The action makes one feel obliged to follow. 

Would I trust that the other driver knows what they are doing?

Would I 'eck-as-like!!

I sit where I am if I, myself, cannot see clearly whether it is OK & safe to proceed.  

Sat at a junction, I'm not moving simply because I cannot see clearly enough!  Some clown stopping and trying too wave me out only makes matters worse. Especially since they cannot exercise any control over what all the other road users can & will do!

Then they spout 'common sense', and ''isn't it obvious?'' & cwapp like that!

No, I have no faith in what others see as 'common sense'.

Neither is anything at all obvious!  Not where my no-claims bonus is concerned, at any rate.  Claiming another driver waved one out, or past, does not wash when one has had a motorcyclist  or pedestrian subsequently clout one's motor.

So, I generally ignore them. After all, a polite wave to say 'thank you, but I'm fine where I am for now' is generally misinterpreted as being arrogant  or ignorant. 

 

The worst ones are those who overtake & pull close in front so they can ogle.

 

Bloody awkward if one only has two wheel brakes, and is capable of 80 mph!!! [As a chum used to experience when driving his WW1 era Overland 2 seater!  He wasn't  waving politely at drivers, he was frantically trying to tell them to efff-off out of the ruddy way!!!}

 

 

[MrWolf]

I was thinking purely of the lengthy queue situation where others cannot move, but can let someone else make cautious progress. A lot of motorists have the attitude of "I can't move so I won't let anyone else do so either" As a lifelong motorcyclist and someone whose first car had a sidevalve engine and cable brakes when others dreamt of XR3Is, I never take it for granted that another motorist can see that the road is clear.

Just because one motorist let's you out, doesn't automatically mean that the rest will, old car or not.

Other pet peeves are those who have to overtake the slow old motor, only to panic and slow down when they realise that I was going faster than they could for the road conditions.

People who see you coming and pull out in front of you anyway, believing that you can't be doing more than forty in your jalopy, when you're doing sixty five in a two ton Vauxhall Velox on drum brakes.

Morons who try to race you off the lights and clearly know nothing about power to weight ratio and that the seventy odd year old motorcycle is going to humiliate their new hatchback...

[alastairq]

7 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

I was thinking purely of the lengthy queue situation where others cannot move, but can let someone else make cautious progress.

 That's what I was more or less thinking of.....but when folk have a fit of politeness, they rarely look or consider the cyclist , or the motorcycle 'filtering ' along, etc.....or, even the vehicles that might be coming the other way, at speed?

If one's old motor happens to have a long bonnet as well, it makes life very awkward when easing slowly out, trying to get a clear enough view around the backside of a van or other cars......or trying to move so slowly that one is not suddenly 'appearing' out of the line of vehicles, in front of a motorcyclist, who won;t be travelling  as slowly as they ought, given they too, cannot see clearly enough in the available width of road?

Mind, if I come across such levels of traffic, I try to do a U turn and go back home!   I've spent too much of my working life sat in traffic jams....Which is one major reason why I dislike motorways! I avoid them if at all possible, preferring to take a longer route that has more options for turning off, or around.

 

[boxbrownie]

I think it’s fine/nice if somebody signals to “let you out/go” whatever, but it is still up to you whether it is safe and presents no hazards, we all need a bit more courtesy on the roads and a few more waves rather than fingers!

 

We would all get home a little bit happier.

 

Doesnt mean I don’t want to beat that little sh1te away from the lights in his Astra though 

[MrWolf]

How about long bonnet and left hand drive?

 

[MrWolf]

2 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

Doesnt mean I don’t want to beat that little sh1te away from the lights in his Astra though 

 

It's usually lowered Audi /BMW / VW with clouds of unburned diesel coming out of the exhaust and stinky trees coming out of the open windows.

If only I could get away with tossing a grenade into the footwell... 

[boxbrownie]

11 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

 

It's usually lowered Audi /BMW / VW with clouds of unburned diesel coming out of the exhaust and stinky trees coming out of the open windows.

If only I could get away with tossing a grenade into the footwell... 

yes I suppose Astra are a bit old hat now, I was using it as a generic term, unfortunately nowadays the little scrots could be driving anything....and you right about the exhaust, you can be following a perfectly innocent looking Aud/BMW/VW along quite normally until he puts his foot down to overtake and you get a cloud that a cold start Class 37 would be proud of, that’s the signal to quietly say under your breath.........*..

 

* Andy automatically filtered it out.....it wasn’t that bad, but could have been so much worse 

Edited May 29, 2021 by boxbrownie

[alastairq]

49 minutes ago, MrWolf said:

How about long bonnet and left hand drive?

 

 Yes I have that problem.

But, oddly, I don't find it a problem at all.

 

LHD has never given me an issue, with regards to how far I can see, or where.

 

I am used to dodging around within my lane or carriageway to get a better view, further.

 

So LHD isn't really an issue. In fact, often with LHD one gets a 'better' view than with RHD.

 

The only ''LHD'' problems I can recall would have been when driving LHD military land rovers in the YuK.

 

Then, mainly at roundabouts!

 

Because an awful lot of [modern?] roundabouts have their entry roads/lanes skewed around to the left on entry.

 

There are [usually] no windows behind the front seats on military land rovers. Therefore, when driving a leftie, I would be 'pointing' in a direction nobody else is, just to see to my right, but slightly to the rear. Everybody else would be looking at a green landrover [with funny reg plates] pointing almost sideways-on to the direction they would be expecting it to be pointing.  Not bad on small roundabouts, but, a nightmare when considering roundabouts after exists from motorways and stuffs...with their multiplicity of lanes.  ***

 

What's more, they'd pull along side to gesticulate to the driver, only to find there was no-one sitting there [because they wouldn't be able to see me either!]

 

Used to cause  much hilarity with other drivers on motorways as well...with a land rover galloping along [military speed limit of 60 on motorways for a Land Rover]..., perhaps zig zagging a bit [power steering far too light at speed]...with no one behind the wheel...!!

I used to hide out of sight, and watch the faces of their passengers.

 

Mind, I did come across some top secret land rovers a few years back, which were [or appeared to be] entirely remote controlled. Very odd looking masts stuck out front as well....Maybe they were trying to resolve the poor recruitment figures using AI?

 

*** I believe, the military opted for cabs on their lorry-type transport, that had small windows behind the actual doors?

Bedford MK/MJ, LeyDaf, etc 4 tonners  were all equipped thus. [As were Daf/Fodden MMLC/IMMLC waggins.} 

This meant that, regardless of left or right hand drive [they had a mix of both] the driver didn't have a blind sport on the opposite side, when driving on the wrong sort of roads.

Obviously thought more of a driver's needs back in the 1980's??

 

With the new [???} MAN waggins, obviously the powers-that-be couldn't have cared less?

[MrWolf]

I suspect that cost was more of a factor in the recent choice of MOD truck, but then again, we're not exactly spoit for choice of manufacturer like in the days of the old WD.