Class 45's

[rodent279]

Evening all,

 

Bit confused about Peak brakes & MU gear.

 

I know all were built VB & converted to XB & XE from around 1967 up to 1975. I thought that the cylinders under the battery boxes were air cylinders added during dual braking, & are the best way to tell a dual braked loco from a vac only, along with an extra brake pipe on the buffer beam. However this http://www.flickr.com/photos/tcs-pics/7689555832/ pic of D49 (45039) shows it lacking cyls but with what looks like a full complement of brake pipes. Can anyone explain please?

 

Secondly, I'm sure I remember non-ETH Peaks with MU jumpers on the bufferbeam where the ETH jumpers were on ETH locos, but yet to find any photos showing them. Am I mistaken?

 

cheers N

[frobisher]

As I understand it, the loco's are air braked regardless of whether they have air train brakes, so perhaps what D49 was there was an early modification which used the loco's air brake reservoir for train braking. Down the line that may not have been seen as adequate from an operational and safety point of view hence the later modifications needing additional tanks.

 

As regards the jumpers are you thinking perhaps of the class 40's that definitely had that feature?

[Clive Mortimore]

Evening all,

 

Bit confused about Peak brakes & MU gear.

 

I know all were built VB & converted to XB & XE from around 1967 up to 1975. I thought that the cylinders under the battery boxes were air cylinders added during dual braking, & are the best way to tell a dual braked loco from a vac only, along with an extra brake pipe on the buffer beam. However this http://www.flickr.com/photos/tcs-pics/7689555832/ pic of D49 (45039) shows it lacking cyls but with what looks like a full complement of brake pipes. Can anyone explain please?

 

Secondly, I'm sure I remember non-ETH Peaks with MU jumpers on the bufferbeam where the ETH jumpers were on ETH locos, but yet to find any photos showing them. Am I mistaken?

 

cheers N

Hi N

 

The photo does suggest that D49 has air brakes, as it has the pipes. I too was under the impression that airbraked Peaks had the additional cyclinders under the battery boxes. Styrange.

 

As for MU jumpers, when built they had standard blue star MU jumper cables (and little stars painted no the noses) but these were removed in the mid sixties. Why? I don't know. 

[rodent279]

Frobisher-yes you may be right about getting MU cables confused with class 40's.

 

Regarding using the loco brake reservoirs for the train air brake, I thought that at first, but according to my 1973 ABC (records correct to Dec 72), 49/45039 was vac only. The pic in the link above is dated 1972. According to another pic I've seen on flickr of 45039, it was not dual braked until 1975. I did wonder whther pipes were fitted in advance of the rest of the braking mods but I guess there would be implications for safety there in that air brake pipes could be coupled erroneously. An error on the safe side I suppose, as there would be no means of releasing the brakes.

 

The only other possibility is that it, and some other examples were through air-piped. I know some 20's were through-piped, and maybe some 26's as well, but wasn't aware of anything else. It's an interesting one, would be nice to resolve.

 

Edit-think some 76's were though-piped as well.

[frobisher]

My googlefu is weak. Not been able to turn up any pictures of MU fitted 45's at all. Everything I've found seems to indicate that the Blue Star equipment was removed by the early 70's which is well before my spotting days. I'm intrigued as well now (did they have the same arrangement as the 40's?). [EDIT] The photo of the front end of a 44 here (http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Recognition Pictures Loco/Pic_Class44.html) indicates perhaps not.

 

On a side note, the 45's have the additional air control pipes that I though was a feature of the Blue Star MU system, but retain them after that's been removed, but it also appears that the 55's had them as well and were never MU fitted, so at this point could a knowledgeable soul enlighten me as to what I'm actually seeing there please?

[45125]

My googlefu is weak. Not been able to turn up any pictures of MU fitted 45's at all. Everything I've found seems to indicate that the Blue Star equipment was removed by the early 70's which is well before my spotting days. I'm intrigued as well now (did they have the same arrangement as the 40's?). [EDIT] The photo of the front end of a 44 here (http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Recognition Pictures Loco/Pic_Class44.html) indicates perhaps not.

 

On a side note, the 45's have the additional air control pipes that I though was a feature of the Blue Star MU system, but retain them after that's been removed, but it also appears that the 55's had them as well and were never MU fitted, so at this point could a knowledgeable soul enlighten me as to what I'm actually seeing there please?

The peake had their MU jumpers removed in the mid 60s as there was no need for them, plus they used to have lots of trouble with them, earth faults. The reg air pipe were removed at the same time. 

 

I don't have my records to hand when D49 was dual braked, but it is possible that D49 has had a bogie swap with a dual braked machine this also occured with EE type 4s.

 

Deltics never had reg air pipes, the pipe you are on about are the main resevoir pipe, the one that are now yellow but were originally white..

 

D49 in the photo does have the additional pipe work going down below the battery boxes that a dual brake peak has, thes would not be seen on a vac machine.

 

Al Taylor

[Crossfell5]

45125 is correct about the bogie swap - with a dual brake one. This happened alot with 40's - Crewe (or Derby) would refurb some bogies and just swop them onto a loco if the bogies required attention during an overhaul - even if they were still Vac Only.

 

I have done alot of research on Peaks and only recently found out that this was done with 45's too. About 13 made it to TOPS Vacuum Only and whilst trawling for photos of them on the net it became clear this happened to Peaks as well. 45034 and 036 were 2 (so far!) which were like this. As you have already pointed out, the only way to tell if the loco was D/B is the air tank below the Battery Box. This (air tank) was always on the loco but repositioned from the nose to make room for the extra compressor for D/B locos.

 

I have 3 pics of 40161 which was only ever Vac Only - 1975 ex-wks @ Crewe with DB bogies - in 1977 she had lost the MW & Air Bag - 1979 @ Stirling after another wks visit, DB bogies again, and I think she kept the Air Bag in tact until being w/drawn in Dec 1980!

[the penguin of doom]

Possibly going slightly off topic, but remaining with the Peaks.....

 

One of the farewell railtours visited the Scarborough to Hull line with two Peaks double heading, 45 007 and 45 107 if memory serves correct. If the MU equipment was removed in the mid to late 60's, were these loco's individually crewed or am I missing the point?

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

[45059]

Possibly going slightly off topic, but remaining with the Peaks.....

 

One of the farewell railtours visited the Scarborough to Hull line with two Peaks double heading, 45 007 and 45 107 if memory serves correct. If the MU equipment was removed in the mid to late 60's, were these loco's individually crewed or am I missing the point?

 

Cheers.

 

Sean.

In MLI's magazine on classes 44-46 there is a photo of two Peaks working double-headed on the Derby to Saint P dated September 86. (Page 46) However it states that there was a driver in each loco.

[rodent279]

Thanks all. I never guessed that bogies from an AB example could be fitted to a VB example. I guess it's an error on the safe side though, as there would be no way of releasing the brake if the air brake hoses were coupled up. Just goes to show how much there is to these details. I'm not particularly fastidious about accuracy, just saw the pic of D49 with air pipes & no cyls on the side & wondered why?

 

I guess the bogie swap causing confusion is not an issue on other types because peaks, 40's & 76's were the only ones with drawgear & brake pipes on the bogies (as far as I can remember-discounting the 3 SR diesel prototypes & the 3 SR booster locos).

 

Which raises the question-did class 76's similarly have bogies swapped between AB & VB examples?

 

Minefield eh? Once you get going on these things, there's no end to it..........

 

 

cheers N

[The Stationmaster]

The photo very clearly shows a brake pipe for the automatic air brake plus the two original control air pipes plus steam and vac pipes.  So on seeing it from the front end I would automatically assume it to be a dual brake loco because of the auto air brake brake pipe.  The cock on the further air pipe appears to be painted yellow and that would be consistent with that pipe being used as the reservoir pipe as was the case on any other photos I can find of dual brake 'Peaks' (in our neck of the woods we tended to call all of them 'Peaks').

 

Next question really is why doesn't it show any other traces of being fitted with a train airbrake?  Well there's clearly a gap where the air cylinder could usually be seen so one conclusion might be that it had been removed for some reason and the loco is stopped awaiting a new one.

[Classsix T]

In MLI's magazine on classes 44-46 there is a photo of two Peaks working double-headed on the Derby to Saint P dated September 86. (Page 46) However it states that there was a driver in each loco.

Strictly speaking then, they aren't double-heading, they're in tandem.

C6T.

[Clive Mortimore]

Strictly speaking then, they aren't double-heading, they're in tandem.

C6T.

Hi C6T

 

They are double-heading and your are correct they are in tandem. Had they still had their Mu gear and were being driven by one driver then they would still be double headed but this time in multiple.

[Classsix T]

I did wonder after posting Clive, as steam is always double-heading despite the lack of multiple working, but then the phrase piloting is often used.

My understanding was diesels only double-head when in multi, if not it's tandem. I guess tandem is a post steam term in reference to drivers rather than locos?

 

C6T.

[Poor Old Bruce]

When I was in Brunel House at the RTC, we could see the trains going in and out of the station. One fairly regular occurrence was to put an ex-works loco on the front of the 14:00 to St Pancras presumably as a loaded test run. It usually got back light engine to Derby just after 15:00 so I presume they only worked to Leicester and the 'train' engine let the 'pilot' do all the work. On one day the ex-works loco was a 44. If my brain had been in gear and had enough time I would have gone for a ride, there can't have been many occasions in their later life when a 44 was asked to do 90!

[Crossfell5]

@The Stationmaster

If you read all of my post you'll see that the Air Tank was there - it was just in the nose end!

Only when they were properly DB fitted did the air tank move, to make way for the extra compressor.

 

Here are a few pics showing the differences -

 

45036 TOPS, Vac Only, with Air Brake Pipe - http://www.flickr.com/photos/82334700@N02/8740773655

45035 TOPS, Vac Only, normal Vac Only bogie http://www.flickr.com/photos/12352429@N07/8594033955

[Gallows Close]

Hello All,

 

Going away from the original topic, but remaining with the class 45.  Can anyone tell me if any of the 45/0 fleet was fitted with slow speed control for working MGR trains?

 

Many thanks, and best regards,

Chris.

[Fat Controller]

Hello All,

 

Going away from the original topic, but remaining with the class 45.  Can anyone tell me if any of the 45/0 fleet was fitted with slow speed control for working MGR trains?

 

Many thanks, and best regards,

Chris.

Pretty certain none were so fitted; there was a regular (daily?) MGR working from the East Midlands to Northfleet cement works that was hauled by a 45, but this would have a slow-speed-fitted 47 coupled to it from Cricklewood onwards

[Guest bri.s]

Pretty certain none were so fitted; there was a regular (daily?) MGR working from the East Midlands to Northfleet cement works that was hauled by a 45, but this would have a slow-speed-fitted 47 coupled to it from Cricklewood onwards

Class 45/0 used to do the dodworth to Barnsley junction mgr working they only took half a train at a time though 15 wagons max I think ,one of the last 45 workings was the dodworth run I think anything from 001 to 023 would do the run all tinsley engines I believe .although I don't know if they had a need for slow speed it wasn't a rapid loader at dodworth , they just jumped on the wagons and took them the short distance to Barnsley junction .

 

Brian

[robertcwp]

Here is one with MU jumpers:

 

D93_Lickey by robertcwp, on Flickr

 

The Peaks went through a major refurbishment/rebuild in the mid-1960s due to their unreliability, with lots being done at Brush Loughborough. If it hadn't already gone, this was when the MU gear was removed.

 

This one has ETH:

 

45120_Exeter_6-8-80 by robertcwp, on Flickr

[Gallows Close]

Thanks for the replies,  I suspect that you are correct Brian, however I have seen quite a few photos recently of class 45/0 hauled HAA trains - particularly those from Dodworth and that got me wondering.  But it looks like the answer is no.

 

Thanks again,  best wishes,

Chris.