RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted October 3, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 3, 2013 I thought Messrs Moore & Worthington did a Machine Tool demonstration at this years expo EM? Porcy They did indeed, although it was pretty much a static display showing jigs and parts that had been made using lathes and milling machines. I don't think that the lathe was ever plugged in although the milling machine may have been switched on a couple of times and used briefly by one of the highly experienced demonstrators. I do know that they had taken a good supply of safety goggles with them for use by themselves and anybody watching. Enquiries were made in advance as to whether or not the machine tools could be used and whether such use was likely to cause a problem with any public liability insurance. As no firm answer was received prior to the show, a cautious approach was adopted. It is hoped that this display may be extended to allow folk to "have a go" if approval can be obtained and suitable screens and other safety equipment can be arranged. I am the first person to ridicule daft H & S stuff that I see but in this case, I do wonder who would have been liable if a lump of metal had flown off and hit a viewer in the eye? For that is what a lot of it is about. Much H & S stuff is common sense (and I am all in favour of sensible but not OTT precautions) but in this day and age the matter of liability and responsibility seems to just as important and I do wonder if that aspect had been fully considered in allowing folk to operate such tools. Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 They did indeed Thanks Tony. I didn't dream it after all. I wonder if it would be worth rigging up a cheapo type of GoPro camera so folk could watch what was going on at the sharp end via a remote screen. Nah, scratch that... goggles would be cheaper. P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted October 3, 2013 Share Posted October 3, 2013 ....There used to be a lathe demo at ExpoEM, but it was abandoned because of H&S! I remember that. It was run by a white-haired old fella, and he had clearly had the gift of the gab. There was constant running commentary as he went through each operation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Not just 'modern' schools. Sadly that and woodworking were hands-on skills considered only suitable for the oiks up the road at the "secondary modern" we were considered above all that manual stuff and only suited to bury our heads in Greek/latin/economics/politics/theology and other eminently useless activities. But at least we had character forming activities such as cricket for fair play, rugby for team building, jolly hockey sticks for agression, martial arts for control and dexterity and a CCF to unify (indoctrinate) the mind. Another advantage of attending a Public School. Woodwork and metal work were actively encouraged and a set range of pieces had to be produced over the year. I still have a sledge I made at the age of 15 with formed metal runners supported on brackets with the whole thing riveted together. I do not ever remember wearing safety glasses in those days. The CCF did allow you to play with big fireworks and various guns. Not something I needed to know in later life but the map reading skills did come in handy. Far from unify and indoctrinate I found it taught you to think independently and not follow the mainstream. Back on topic. A range of practical demonstrations, possibly in a small separate room might be worth considering. These days it ought to include laser cutting and 3D printing. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I thought Messrs Moore & Worthington did a Machine Tool demonstration at this years expo EM? Well I was there and clearly missed it :kick: :kick: Sometimes I wonder if there is some other big room next door where the real show is happening! Any chance of a repeat performance and a big clear announcement for the blind idiot who is in attendance but not paying any attention :oops: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 4, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2013 Just to give a little bit of perspective(?) this is one of a series of pics I took at a local event earlier this year and I'm fairly sure the view gives an accurate impression of the distance between the safety barrie and the thing on the ground. The thing held by the two blokes is a ladle of molten iron which was drawn off from the small blast furnace in the background and is being poured into the sand mould in the foreground - fortunately everything was nice & dry. Compared to that a lathe demonstration is rather small beer I think although still subject to risk assessment etc - I wonder who did the RA for this demo? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Slightly off topic. Having experience of developing activities with children, young people's and community groups. We had a basement equipped with pottery workshop, and the traditional woodwork metalwork "school" workshop. The risk assessments were fairly simple to complete. The issue we had was with the insurers who can deem what they consider a legal or illegal activity. Anything powered infront of a general public of any age was a very simple NO. I think demonstrations are a very valuable asset to any show, and definitely worth exploring how it can be acheived safely and legally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
10800 Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 The issue we had was with the insurers who can deem what they consider a legal or illegal activity. Anything powered infront of a general public of any age was a very simple NO. OT sorry, but under what process do they 'deem' to have this right? Doesn't seem to affect roadworkers using pneumatic drills and angle-grinders a few feet away from pedestrians then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Surely it's not a question of legality. The HSE itself often gets frustrated with insurers, and others, 'banning' something under the name of H & S legislation and illegality when it's nothing of the sort. Insurers jut don't want to expose themselves to any risk, or do a genuine risk analysis, so they just say you can 't do that, it's illegal. I appreciate that if your insurers decline to cover you there is not much you can do, it's not illegal to carry on, but you have no insurance cover. Very few of these situations are 'illegal', they are often too complex for a simple law to cover them. What is required is a proper safety assessment with reasonable and sensible steps taken to minimise the risk of injury with an insurance industry prepared to put in a bit of effort and apply some common sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Not able to give an answer just personal work based experience. I guess it is their right as they are providing the cover for what is and how they deem an activity what ever it is to be a risk. I am not saying I believe their (insurance industry) stance to be correct. OT sorry, but under what process do they 'deem' to have this right? Doesn't seem to affect roadworkers using pneumatic drills and angle-grinders a few feet away from pedestrians then. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian Fisher Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Every insurer I have dealt with use the term legal or ilegal activity, I have worked with many in my work over the years. I think that is their language, as every industry has its own terminology. Too many cooks, misinterpretation, lack of desire, claim culture?. Who knows? I think though the cogs are in the system, then if you are using a public space and they (the owners management of the space) deem you havent got cover, they are within their right to say no to a certain activity liabilities and all that. The whole thing is a minefield. Oh and for the record my role was one of facilitating these activities, not as an insurer. Surely it's not a question of legality. The HSE itself often gets frustrated with insurers, and others, 'banning' something under the name of H & S legislation and illegality when it's nothing of the sort. Insurers jut don't want to expose themselves to any risk, or do a genuine risk analysis, so they just say you can 't do that, it's illegal. I appreciate that if your insurers decline to cover you there is not much you can do, it's not illegal to carry on, but you have no insurance cover. Very few of these situations are 'illegal', they are often too complex for a simple law to cover them. What is required is a proper safety assessment with reasonable and sensible steps taken to minimise the risk of injury with an insurance industry prepared to put in a bit of effort and apply some common sense. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wizard of the Moor Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Well I was there and clearly missed it :kick: :kick: Sometimes I wonder if there is some other big room next door where the real show is happening! Any chance of a repeat performance and a big clear announcement for the blind idiot who is in attendance but not paying any attention :oops: I'm in the process of arranging a repeat Modelling with Machine Tools demonstration by Messers Worthington and Moore at Scalefour North next April. Please drop me a PM if you are interested so that I can gauge the likely interest. There will also be a demo on laser cutting. => Scalefour North, Wakefield - April 12th/13th 2014 <= Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
black and decker boy Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 Roadworks should have segregation from the public and the HSE take a very dim view if not. This has to include measures to stop fragments, sparks and dust leaving the works and entering public space. Construction insurance typically has a very large excess (often £40k or more) so any breaches and resulting injuries to public are not strictly insured and often paid by the contractor. The fact that a lot of roadworks fail to protect is a symptom of the industry and should not be taken as an example of what can be permitted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arthur Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I agree Ian, you have to comply with the stipulations of the venue management and their, and your, insurers. The point I am making is that, however the insurers put it, there are no specific laws saying anything like, 'you cannot use a lathe in a public space' and for them to suggest that there is is plain wrong. There are general laws on taking responsibility for safety of employees and the public, regulations on machine guards and the like, the HSE can make recommendations on how this should be interpreted in specific cases and from a legal standpoint you'd be a fool to ignore them. Having insurance and complying with their conditions is another issue. A reasonable approach by the insurers would have been to recommend a suitable type of screen, safe viewing distance, safety barrier etc. But no, too much effort, just say no. Referring to Mike's photo above. They're no doubt covered by insurance and the insurers have accepted that there is some risk. If the sand in that mould had contained any moisture, the molten iron would have been blown out far and wide. The insurers have accepted that the demonstrators know what they are doing, and have taken the appropriate measures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 I'm in the process of arranging a repeat Modelling with Machine Tools demonstration by Messers Worthington and Moore at Scalefour North next April. Please drop me a PM if you are interested so that I can gauge the likely interest. There will also be a demo on laser cutting. => Scalefour North, Wakefield - April 12th/13th 2014 <= James thanks for the invite but Wakefield is way out of my range for shows. Which is why the demo given at EM "South" in Bracknell only 5 miles away is all the more annoying. I do think these demonstrations are really for the specialist type of show where the audience is perhaps a little more mature and hopefully more interested than just sticking a finger in. And yes laser cutting is another one of those mysteries that should be open to all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 4, 2013 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 4, 2013 I agree Ian, you have to comply with the stipulations of the venue management and their, and your, insurers. The point I am making is that, however the insurers put it, there are no specific laws saying anything like, 'you cannot use a lathe in a public space' and for them to suggest that there is is plain wrong. There are general laws on taking responsibility for safety of employees and the public, regulations on machine guards and the like, the HSE can make recommendations on how this should be interpreted in specific cases and from a legal standpoint you'd be a fool to ignore them. Having insurance and complying with their conditions is another issue. A reasonable approach by the insurers would have been to recommend a suitable type of screen, safe viewing distance, safety barrier etc. But no, too much effort, just say no. Referring to Mike's photo above. They're no doubt covered by insurance and the insurers have accepted that there is some risk. If the sand in that mould had contained any moisture, the molten iron would have been blown out far and wide. The insurers have accepted that the demonstrators know what they are doing, and have taken the appropriate measures. I agree absolutely Arthur - and not even the relevant Inspectorate has any right to say if something is, or isn't, 'legal' unless that something is included in the relevant legislation, regulations or whatever; they enforce etc according to that and not according to what they happen to think (but there are instances when they can 'interpret' of course). I suspect that as far as insurers are concerned the just use the terms 'legal' as some sort of off-putting/defensive jargon to avoid them having to simply say 'no' and upset people. They are of course quite at liberty to reject a risk assessment but, in my view, not without explaining why they are rejecting it. Equally they might not be happy with the assessor's decision regarding what is making the risk ALARP but that is then up to them to price their premium accordingly or reject the proposal because they consider it uninsurable or presenting too great a financial risk to the business. Nothing to do with 'legal' but a lot to do with them not identifying the business as profitable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 There will also be a demo on laser cutting. => Scalefour North, Wakefield - April 12th/13th 2014 <= Wow! "Beam me there... Scotty!" Why has the image of elderly P4 modellers running around Wakefield lopping of each others heads with light sabres just popped into my head? I've never even seen Star Wars... I assume the demo will be the products of laser cutting... as the safety goggles that have to be worn in the vicinity of even a low powered laser are a tad expensive and that’s before I think about extraction gear. Although a fully enclosed cabinet... P Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium t-b-g Posted October 4, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 4, 2013 Well I was there and clearly missed it :kick: :kick: Sometimes I wonder if there is some other big room next door where the real show is happening! Any chance of a repeat performance and a big clear announcement for the blind idiot who is in attendance but not paying any attention :oops: The display went down so well that the pair did a repeat peformance at EXPO EM North a couple of weeks ago at Manchester and further bookings for such events (including EXPO at Bracknell next May and Scalefour North) are in hand, so you should get a chance to see them before too long. Some of the jigs and assembly aids they have made are really quite brilliant but others just make you question their sanity...... They are good friends of mine so hopefully I am allowed to say that!! Tony Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted October 4, 2013 Share Posted October 4, 2013 We had a lovely day in Aylesbury! Not having the M25 to contend with was an added bonus! Few bits and pieces here - http://eastmoor.blogspot.co.uk/2013/10/scaleforum-2013.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 A very nice write up in the society mag... well done Chris It made for a pleasant way to unwind once getting home late last night after being subjected to being flung 450miles through the air at about 500mph at near-on 40,000ft in a thin aluminium tube. jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted December 4, 2013 Share Posted December 4, 2013 Yes Chris well done. Not too sure about the likening to a certain well known (in the early 70s) TV programme.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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